"Dogs run free, why not we?" –Bob Dylan

[Spring Chicken]

Re: Breed “bashing”? Nature overwhelms nurture when it comes to dog breeds.

Pitbulls have been bred for centuries as fighting dogs, with the ideal specimens chosen for being willing to fight to the death.

Pitbulls are known for surprise attacks without warning. Pitbulls have very powerful jaws and a “hold and shake” bite capable of inflicting severe or fatal injuries.

These are breed-specific characteristics not found among labradoodles.

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[hopey]

Did you know that there is no such breed as a “pit bull”? Three different terriers usually get lumped together into being called “pit bulls”.

But I’m not going to argue with you. That is not the point of this thread — which is supposed to be about illegal off-leash dogs — so I’m not going to contribute to derailing it further. I made a simple request and honestly should have known better, as breed bans have historically been a flashpoint topic on the forum.

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[DBP]

hopey, I’m on your side. I don’t want a breed ban either. Even though I don’t like pitbulls, I don’t think it’s fair to the good owners out there to ban them all together.

The Nature vs. Nurture thing doesn’t interest me that much, since I’m coming at this from the perspective of public safety. The simple fact is that there are lots of pitbulls and pitbull mixes out there now (most commonly abandoned dog according to Pamela) and when these animals bite, which they often do, it is serious.

http://tinyurl.com/national-dog-bite-study-stats

So that is a problem, and if pitbull supporters simply deny that it’s a problem or refuse to work on realistic solutions, then they are practically asking for a breed ban.

My own proposal is a limited breed restriction. Such a restriction would actually help legitimate pitbull breeders, by giving these breeders more control over the breed and channeling more business their way. I don’t know what pitbull pups go for now, but with a breed restriction in place, the price would probably double, which would in turn have the salutary effect of discouraging lowlifes from trying to get a pitbull.

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It is unfortunate that there are people in the world who will take a puppy of a large, muscular breed and turn that puppy into an aggressive dog. But I promise you it can be done with ANY breed.

–There is a serious flaw in this thinking, hopes. You are conflating the image of a large, muscular dog with the image of “any breed.” You promise me that you can do what, exactly? –Turn a chihuahua pup into an adult dog that’s as dangerous as an aggressive pitbull?

No. No amount of training will do that.

Labradoodle? Highly unlikely.

Rottweiler? Sure. Rotties have a significantly higher bite pressure than pits (328 pounds vs. 235 pounds, respectively) and a similarly large build. So yes, if anything, a Rottie could be trained to be more dangerous than a pit.

And if aggressive Rotties were roaming the neighborhood unleashed and getting abandoned in the same numbers that pitbulls are, I’d be calling for breed restrictions on them, too.

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[DBP]

Last Wednesday I sat on a bench at Westcrest Park and watched this dude playing fetch with his dog on the grassy hills just outside (!) the off-leash area.

As you can see, the guy’s got a throwing stick.

The guy was in the area for about 15 minutes, lobbing the ball a good hundred feet in all directions as he ambled across the grass.

Now let’s think about this a sec. Imagine this guy as being at the center of an imaginary circle whose circumference is traced by the dog, which can trot a hundred hundred feet out from the center. So between the two of them, they’re controlling a circle with a diameter of two hundred feet. And the circle is constantly shifting its location as the pair move across the park. So essentially, they’re monopolizing a sizeable part of the park’s remaining open space.

You know why this chaps my hide?

It chaps my hide because I’m already PAYING property tax money so off-leash dog walkers can have their own big chunk of the park.

But is that enough for the Little Prince? No it’s not. He wants the whole damn thing!!

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[DBP]

I had to bide my time until I could get this shot . . .

It shows the Little Prince walking his off-leash dog right past a sign that clearly says “Leash Pets”.

Now one might conclude, from this, that the Little Prince can’t read. But that would be wrong.

The Little Prince can read just fine. But he knows that signs (like laws) are made for suckers like you and me.

Not for Little Princes.

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[Sonoma]

Next time you encounter this situation, look Mr. or Ms. Clueless in the eye and say “Thank you for leashing your dog.”

Feel free to insert an appropriate adjective for the dog, such as “beautiful” or “cute.”

I mean, c’mon, Seattleites, we’re champs at passive-aggressive, and this could work! Don’t be shy.

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[DBP]

Excellent suggestion, Sonoma. I’ll try that the next time I encounter an elderly gentleman with a free-roaming Yorkie.

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[DBP]

So last week I’m strolling the beautiful hills above SW Holden when this 30-something mommy jogs by me on the sidewalk. She’s pushing a high-end pram with a grub in it, rocking out to her Ipod as two mid-sized mutts trot along next to her, one on either side. Off-leash d’natch.

She smiles warmly at me as she goes by, and I don’t mind telling you that she’s pretty good looking. She’s in shape, too (from all the jogging no doubt), so naturally the first thing that crosses my mind is . . .

You know, it’s too bad that I gotta trash this chick on the Internet. In a different world, I think her and me really could’ve been friends. —If you know what I mean by “friends.”

So that’s what was running through my head.

But here’s what was probably running through hers:

[To be spoken in female Honeybadger voice.]

Dude, what’s with the big sti-i-i-i-ck? Ooh! Does he carry that with him for protection? Protection from what? From my two babies? Like my little darlings would actually hurt someone.

Hey! Is that DBP from the Blog? I bet it is. Ewww! He’s a lot older than I thought. Uglier, too.

No wait. That’s not nice of me. He was probably good looking once. Like me.

Oh, what a grump. I think I’ll just smile at him a little bit. Maybe it’ll cheer him up.

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[WSratsinacage]

The Alki playfield is a great place to catch shots of people playing catch with their dogs. Off leash violation AND violating SMC 18.12.080 which prohibits dogs (leashed or not) at organized athletic fields and play structures. Get it together dog owners. Thanks!

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[angelescrest]

Better yet are the tenants of the apartment building hanging over Bar-S field who stand at the top of the hill while their BIG dogs are let off to roam free down below. Or, those who let their pooches off-leash to romp on the fields…then, in the spirit of a continued good time, neglect to leash ’em up as they saunter down the street.

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[WSB]

Flagged to this thread.

Please do NOT show people neck up. I thought this thread was a one-off and checked the first photos, which were OK. The subsequent ones are not.

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[NikiS]

Are these photos not also considered a violation of the forum rules and regs? Specifically the part that says, “If you have accusations of criminal or unethical conduct, those need to be reported first to the proper authorities.” Or would that only apply if the poster was calling out these folks by name? In any case, it seems to me that, even with blocking out peoples’ faces, there are enough identifying details left to make these folks recognizable; also doesn’t appear that anything has been taken to the proper authorities since the complaint here is illegal off-leashing.

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[anonyme]

The problem with requiring reporting of this issue is that unless you have a name, address, or license # for the offender, there is no way for animal control to follow up. With only TWO officers for all of Seattle, they cannot respond quickly to off-leash calls unless it’s a loose dog and aggression is involved. I would guess that taking snaps might actually assist in the process, especially if the individual repeats the offense – which is very likely.

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[Ken]

umm I had a pure breed 110 lbs Rottweiler that was a wonderful family dog. That did not mean I was crazy enough to take her outside the fence without a pinch collar and a short leash. I loved that dog but I am not a foolish enough to think that she would not attack any person or dog she interpreted as threatening to her pack or what she decided was her territory. Even my 45 lbs Husky, is never going to run free except at the dog park and even there I have to be aware that any dog, no matter how big can have dominance issues. This is the alpha (after me and sometimes we have to renegotiate that)dog over 4 other dogs that out weight it by up to 70 lbs. I have had to pull all the dogs from the dog park when a large chow wanted to see submission from my husky.

Not gonna happen and the process will send someone to the vet.

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[DirtyCoyote]

Why are you protecting a law breaker blog captain? DBP, I suggest you take these pictures and send them to the Times or the correct authority and let them know how much of a problem this is. At least you’re doing something about it unlike others here. Great shots!

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[datamuse]

Ken, that reminds me…I spent much of last weekend in the company of a (somewhat smaller, but she’s still growing) Rottweiler that two friends of mine recently adopted. The dog washed out of a service training program because she’s too friendly—she loves people and can’t keep her attention on-task. (Speaking of dominance issues, she’s terrified of anything smaller than her; your toddler will send her running for the hills. Which is kind of hilarious, but her people are working on that because they don’t want that fear response to turn aggressive.)

Now, I’ll admit that I’m a little scared of dogs. I’m working on it, and that Rottweiler helped because she’s just so dang sweet. But her new people are being conscientious about maintaining her training and observing leash laws (we were camped in a state park that allows dogs on-leash), and that helps a lot too.

When your (general you) dog is running around loose on the street, in Riverview Playfield, in Lincoln Park, in Schmitz Park, or outside the dog park in Westcrest (and those are just the ones I’ve personally encountered; the last one that was running around loose in the street nearly got hit by a car when it bolted across to charge at me) because it’s being friendly or because it wants to take a chunk out of me. I’ve had both happen.

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[WSratsinacage]

DBP, I echo what anonyme said.

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The photo you took of the guy with the dog off leash and the on leash sign is exactly the one I would have taken as well. As anon said, and I as I have heard as well, there are just 2 animal control officers in WS and that is exactly why the law is so flagrantly violated, people are bitten, kids chased, slip in poo, etc. What you are doing is about all we can do.

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Myself and others have called and written to report violations and it doesn’t do anything. I wrote to the mayor I was so fed up with Animal Control and the number of violations I see in parks. People can’t enjoy the parks because of dog owners. The mayor or whoever responds for him, told me to contact animal control…

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[Sonoma]

Hey, DBP, re your comment “Excellent suggestion, Sonoma. I’ll try that the next time I encounter an elderly gentleman with a free-roaming Yorkie.” Hahah! Actually, I’ve said “cute dog” and “thanks for leashing” to people a lot tougher-looking than elderly gents and to dogs a lot bigger than Yorkies. And I’m not exactly an imposing figure; I’m sure you’re bigger and more impressive than me! Of course, I do carry pepper spray in case I have to unleash a weapon. Sometimes I just whip out my smartphone (not as a weapon, but to notify if needed). Or…..we could all wear “IT’S THE LEASH YOU CAN DO” T-shirts!

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[DBP]

Sonoma . . . your words inspired me to come out of my shell a little today. I was taking my morning constitutional at You-Know-Where Park [Hint: Famous President] when I spied a couple of ladies with their off-leash dogs at the south end of the beach. They had three big ole golden retrievers and a mid-size mixie with them, and the big r’s were all a-frolick, running in and out of the water.

I screwed up my courage, walked up to the lady closest to the water and proceeded to ask her some questions. As you listen to this recording, please be aware of the following.

► At no time does the lady I’m speaking with identify herself. She is fully aware that I’m recording, as well, so it’s not like I’m trying to publicly shame anyone here, OK? I’m simply looking for answers.

► At no time do I raise my voice or speak harshly to her, nor does she raise her voice or speak harshly back. In fact, I could tell from this woman’s dress, demeanor, and speech that she was probably wealthy and well-educated. At the very least, I’m sure she can read and understand the signage around the park. In fact, she was less than 50-ft away from two separate signs stating that dogs have to be on a leash and that dogs are not allowed on the beaches at all.

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Pay attention to what I say and what she says. It’s pretty black-and-white.

http://tinyurl.com/dog-owners-are-so-special

Transcript to follow.

 

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[WSratsinacage]

Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not surprised.

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[Julie]

DBP, that’s pretty much the response I’ve received when I’ve made the suggestion/request/comment that there was such a law, and I’d appreciate it if people followed it. Polite requests are just shrugged off. With this attitude, I’m skeptical that education is going to help.

I think part of the reason is that the dog owners who don’t follow the law probably get plenty of support for their flouting of the law from each other. “Us against them” mentality. Can we think of a way to turn that around? Otherwise, I think it’s just going to get worse. I see a peculiar attitude of entitlement increasing each year in dog owners.

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[DBP]

I’m working on the problem you mention, Jules, and this thread may be part of a solution. I’ll keep you posted.

Meantime, here’s a transcript of the recording. Deconstructing it might help elucidate the psychology involved here.

Again, there was no outward hostility on my part or on hers. I didn’t get “up in her face” and she didn’t get defensive or angry, though she clearly knew that she was being confronted with an accusation of wrongdoing. She probably just thought of me as your average, garden-variety busybody.

Which I kind of am.

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Lady with dogs in the water: [friendly voice]  Hi!

DBP:  Can I ask you a question?

Lady:  Absolutely.

DPB:  Were you aware that dogs aren’t supposed to be on beaches here?

Lady:  No.

DBP:  Yeah. And the reason is because, if they poop in the water, that will, um, cause bacteria levels to rise in the water, and that could harm the fish.

Lady:  They will not poop in the water.

DBP:  Ok, well another reason, is that there are baby seals that come up on this beach. And dogs are really attracted to baby seals. They wanna, you know, investigate. And that could really hurt the seal.

Lady:  We’ll keep an eye out for that. Thank you.

[Meanwhile, the lady is not making any attempt to put her three big dogs on a leash. They keep running in and out of the water.]

DBP:  OK. What you’re saying is that you don’t really . . . you don’t really care if that’s the law, right?

Lady:  Yes.

DBP:  OK. Got it. Thank you.

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[DBP]

A couple of points to consider here.

In the first place, I’d say it’s quite likely, judging by the tone of this woman’s voice, that she sincerely believes that her dogs wouldn’t harm a seal pup. She probably also believes that she could get the dogs back under her control in a trice if necessary. However, in spite of her assertions, I think it would’ve been tough for her to keep those dogs from picking up and maybe even killing a seal pup, had they found one.

Remember: golden retrievers are large and energetic dogs, and there were three of them. Beyond that, I seem to recall that this dog was originally bred for the purpose of dragging animals OUT of the water for hunters – experts, please correct me if I’m wrong – so the dog has an especially powerful instinctive urge to do that.

 

The woman also seemed to genuinely believe that her dogs would never poop in the water. However, it is not uncommon for dogs to do just that, as we see with our old friend, “Joby.”

Note: The narration has been added to this video for comedic effect, but the point I’m making is simply that dogs WILL poop in the water, and that once they get started, there’s nothing you can do to stop them.

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[WSratsinacage]

Thanks for putting energy towards this. It has been a problem for so long. I’ve tried to use city resources and have not gotten a resolution. I even got so fed up I emailed the mayor. He or whoever reads his emails never responded until I followed up 2 months later. Then, I got an email basically saying “thank you for your note. If you have further concerns contact Animal Control.” I had mentioned in my email to the mayor very clearly and cordially that the reason I was writing him was because I had not been able to get a resolution by working with Animal Control and the Seattle Police Department.

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I am tired of not being able to take my kids to play at the park or watch them try to play an organized sport or any number of other activites where dogs are not allowed to be by law. Not to mention stepping in poop, running over it with the lawn mower, and smelling it in my garbage can.

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I’ll never understand this fascination with dogs and cats or the lack of responsibility on the part of the owners.

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I would like to hear more from Hiawatha the OP of the other thread.

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[Sonoma]

For better or worse, you are my new hero, DBP. Sounds like you got the classic, old-school Seattle freeze. I could hear one of the dogs barking in the background. Maybe they’d be more receptive to your friendly advice than the clueless owner. Hey, pretty doggies, tell your human that you should be on a leash – and you don’t mind it, because you are a good citizen.

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