Home › Forums › Open Discussion › another try at banning plastic bags coming
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September 10, 2011 at 7:11 am #600527
DianeParticipantI went to ‘green’ event tonight where they showed a fabulous film “Bag It”, and a panel of activists announced a new proposal to ban plastic bags statewide; what do you think?
September 10, 2011 at 8:17 am #734225
kootchmanMemberI think we already voted on it. If inspired not to use plastic… then don’t. I like em’… I modified behavior a bit by reuse… I carry my stash to the grocery store. I think Americans in general are getting fed up with others who are so gosh darn good intentioned. Make the case, persuade, educate…then make your personal choices.. but this impulse to impose fringe agendas on others… by bans.. just rankles folks.
September 10, 2011 at 12:34 pm #734226
JoBParticipanti think it’s a wonderful idea.
forget the bag fee
ban the bags.
that island of plastic in the Pacific gets bigger all of the time…
if people can’t act like grown-ups
then you have to treat them like children
September 10, 2011 at 1:45 pm #734227
anonymeParticipantBan them. The only reason the bag law didn’t pass was that the plastics industry launched a massive and misleading ad campaign against it.
September 10, 2011 at 2:11 pm #734228
metrognomeParticipant“fringe agenda” … coming from you, kootch, that’s uh …. refreshing. There are lots of ‘unfringe’ reasons for banning them or at least severely limiting their use. No one but the petroleum industry or the plastic bag industry will be negatively impacted by a ban. BTW, we (meaning Seattle) didn’t vote down banning them, ‘we’ voted down charging for them. Several other WA cities have banned them and the apocolypse hasn’t happened. Although, maybe that’s the reason for the unseasonably warm weather … I’ll call Michelle and ask.
September 10, 2011 at 5:00 pm #734229
datamuseParticipantWe’ve already pretty much stopped using plastic bags at my house so it wouldn’t make much difference to us either way. Those giant swag bags I get at library conferences are great for groceries; plus, now that we mostly ride our bikes to the store, often we just use the panniers.
I’m all in favor of education and choice, but in my experience (and call me a cynic for this if you like) people are much more likely to make good choices if the bad ones are less convenient. Otherwise, we just say “Yeah, I should get around to eating healthier/driving less/quitting smoking/not using plastic” but rarely actually do it. This is just human nature and you can’t really change it on a large scale.
And that’s the thing. Once you do educate yourself about this stuff, it’s hard not to reach the conclusion that if you agree that there’s a problem, it will take systematic, not individual, solutions to solve it.
September 10, 2011 at 5:57 pm #734230
funkietooParticipantBan them. Period.
People were against laws requiring seat belt use.
People were against laws regarding helmets when riding bicycles, motorcycles, etc.
People were against requiring drivers to carry car insurance.
Ban plastic bags…people will get use to it and in many cases, even learn to agree with it.
September 10, 2011 at 6:05 pm #734231
JanSParticipantDon’t get me wrong…I shop at the new Safeway, as they are across the street from me. But…one of the things that I have noticed is that they no longer give you a credit for bringing your own bags. And what do they automatically use, if you don’t ask for paper? Plastic bags, of course. I still take my own, certainly. I just think that if you don’t stop people from using them, that it will just keep going on and on.
I’d also like to see Safeway put a handle on their paper bags. Other stores do it. When you are walking to the store, and have forgotten your own bags, it would make it so you don’t have to ask for plastic on the outside of the bag in order to carry it home. I walk with a cane in one hand, only have one hand free for the bag.
Kman..you do the right thing, but you give too much credit to others to expect them to, too.
September 10, 2011 at 6:24 pm #734232
jwdMemberThe fee that Seattle voters voted down was for any disposable bag, including paper, was a hefty 20 cents per bag, and was pretty confusing as to which stores it applied to. At the time, the comment I heard most often was to just go ahead and ban plastic bags.
September 11, 2011 at 3:02 am #734233
kootchmanMemberFirst… plastic bag have very cheap, high volatility plasticizers..some even use palm kernel oil. they degrade faster in landfills than paper… they consume less volume than paper… now .. we could tinker a bit more ya know… one of my principals now ships in water soluble plastics… with a starch component… y’know the breath mint strips ya put on your tongue? Poof… they work that fast. Or, they can be modified to last a bit longer.. they can be modified to be bacteria susceptible….however… that sorta defeats carbon sequestration.. releasing methane and CO2… you can make plastic reactive to deterioration from chloride ions.. (sea water)… here we go… how many government forces we gonna deploy… to enforce this “ban”…? Hey … ask Waste Management guys how horrid their job is going to be… rotten foods, baby diapers, etc.. at least plastics tied at the neck contain some of the smell… ever considered how sweet the nectar of your alleys will be? Phew!!! Can’t wait to be stuck behind a WM truck in July in heavy traffic… double bagging rotting trash is a great thing! You cat piss disposers are a particular treat to refuse haulers. Chill out with the “government” will solve everything .. most of my grocery plastic bags if not reused..go to double wrap “rot” garbage. Ode d’ Salmon Head is not a neighbor friendly thing… last thing.. Those bags keep a lot of a–holes from chucking coffee cups, and car trash out the window… some of them. When I am in my road warrior mode.. I collect trash until I get to a gas station or rest stop to neatly dispose of it…
September 11, 2011 at 3:15 am #734234
FullTiltParticipantPlastics in general are not considered biodegradable due to their molecular stability. Plastics do not easily break down into simpler components.
A plastic bag will break down into smaller pieces of plastic, but that is not the same as biodegrading
On a sailing trip from Hawaii to Seattle, I say the giant pacific garbage dump, and thousands of shards of plastic on the way. Sure the government can not solve all our problems, but industry, left to its own accords, are always going to go for the lowest cost. If the government, ie we the people, do not make disposal of their waste part of the cost, biodegradable bags will never be the norm.
September 11, 2011 at 3:43 am #734235
kootchmanMemberVirtually every plastic is hydrocarbon based. How the polymeric bonda are made, heat, chemical catlalyzing… is a cost/durability choice. Any organic compound can be reduced to it’s simpler elemental forms..some as simply as UV exposure… even diamonds can be heated and burned to elemental form. There are many bacterium that can do the job on plastics … they certainly can be made very susceptible biodegradable agents. But… the part of the equation that greenies miss… is every biodegradation involves a release of green house gases.. including cotton, and paper. Recyclability, the use of the same carbon over and over and over again… is the ONLY way to reduce CO2 loads in a consumer economy. If we can’t sequester it….the best option is to not create more of it. That is the endless possibility of plastics.. a knee jerk ban is too simple…hence its appeal. The greatest threat of CO2 emissions?… biodegrading permafrost.. the loss of sequestration reserves. Carbon bonds to quote Mary Poppins….are like promises… “easily made, easily broken”… (when so chemcially engineered)
September 11, 2011 at 3:49 am #734236
GenHillOneParticipantDiane, did they address a plan for ALL plastic bags? One of the rubs for me previously was that it didn’t include produce bags, drugstores, department stores, etc.
September 11, 2011 at 5:31 am #734237
singularnameParticipantDiane … Sitting here in my efficiency-bulb-lighted bedroom, and somewhat pissed about it, because the din is that of the hotels in Communist-era Eastern Europe, and that depresses me, as I NEED bright light to be happy, I think it’s ridiculous.
I’m a prolific plastic bag user … I use them for EVERYTHING, each one as many times as I can, by design. I have it down–haven’t purchased a box of any type of bags in probably 20 years. Don’t use too many, because I’m not a big shopper and about 70% of my food comes from a scruffy little garden in my backyard, organic, year-round. I also drive a gas-guzzler, which I need for frequent hauling. I fly more than the average person. And I have somewhere between 8 and 10 thousand books, because it is a life-long pleasure of mine to *feel* and “see” The Book. I do have a terrible weakness for the convenience of paper towels. I also use toilet paper, and not the recycled kind. I found the “sponge” to not suit my needs as well as the “tampon.” All of these needs or pleasures of mine make my life good and in an order I want it.
Alternatively, I never buy flowers, an industry that is tragically destroying the environment of a large swath in Africa, at least. I don’t bathe but for every two or three days, unless of course I need to. I have about 14 forks spoons knives total, maybe 20 plates bowls cups glasses, all given to me by my family roughly 35 years ago–my pots and pans are the set my mom bought in 1959 in her parents’ living room before she was married. Looking over into my closet now–maybe 30 items of clothing tops, including shoe pairs, at least have of which were second-hand by the time I got them. Zero small electric appliances in my kitchen with the exception of one, an espresso machine, bought in 1975–no microwave. I use “the Cloud” for the most part and my music and movies come from the ether. I did a 10-year stint here in Seattle with no heat source for my house. Rode the bus for about 10 years until that system wouldn’t work for a single parent. I don’t use straws. Never bought a paper plate, a plastic fork, a styrofoam cup.
Let “them” use alternatives to plastic bags while “we” use alternatives of our own choosing.
September 11, 2011 at 8:39 am #734238
DianeParticipantthanks for all the great comments; I will contact the Seattle Council-member who was part of the panel, to suggest he read what you all have to say, which I think is fairly representative of Seattle opinions, all over the place
~
GenHillOne; there were not specifics given, but there was a rep from Bellingham, sharing how they got a ban passed, and they were all trying to get everyone in the room to sign petitions (I did not sign)
September 11, 2011 at 3:43 pm #734239
maplesyrupParticipantDespite the way some people more or less use the bags responsibly, those bags still end up in sewers, waterways, and landfills. And that’s because there are just as many irresponsible people who don’t use them wisely.
And you have to consider the way the grocery stores use them. You can fit 5 or 6 plastic bags worth of groceries into 2 paper bags. Yet they default to plastic because it costs them less.
I still like the fee because it gives consumers a choice, but banning plastic bags at grocery stores would be second best, I suppose.
September 18, 2011 at 4:02 pm #734240
kootchmanMemberI now pay twice as much for my bright and shiny incandescents… but buy them I will. I like the quality of the light. Go ahead ban the bags… there is great profit in things demanded that are banned…and it gives the unemployed a good foundation for an underground economy. Paper or plastic… if ya want paper .. ask for it… personal choices. Show me a grocery store in WS where you don’t have a choice? BTY.. since neither paper or plastic decomposes in landfills… it is then weight and mass that counts… and paper weighs more and consumes more space.
September 19, 2011 at 4:47 am #734241
JoBParticipantkootchman…
have you seen the plastic bags floating in the sound? ride a ferry and you will.
have you seen them blowing in the wind? go down the street and you will.
there will still be plenty of plastic bags available if we ban those plastic shopping bags…
but since we directly pay for them.. we are less likely to let them blow in the wind…
September 19, 2011 at 6:51 am #734242
kootchmanMemberI have, and it is detestable..but a ban is an overreaction to a problem with solutions.
September 19, 2011 at 9:23 am #734243
JanSParticipantand, of course, you, being all knowing, have just the answer to the problem, don’t you?
September 19, 2011 at 11:47 am #734244
kootchmanMemberwell jan… I am not all knowing.. but on this subject, yes… I have extensive industry knowledge. I don’t like to impose the burdens of regulation on others when there are other options. Want some research links? Some alternate product formulation articles? …. it is knee jerk to grab for a government solution to every problem. It”s like.. geez, I will just give up on being a collective citizen, building a consensus, as long as I have a like minded nanny government… I can impose my will… through surrogates….before we run to government to solve every single little thing that vexes us… some actual knowing is not a bad thing. Unless you have an inside track on a new city position…. plastic bag super duper coordinator why not do a little research?
September 19, 2011 at 12:07 pm #734245
kootchmanMemberHow many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world! That has such people in it!
AH
September 19, 2011 at 4:39 pm #734246
kootchmanMemberKool things for plastic bag use..
dog poop – enhances public health.. parasite control
Vine ties – great for organic garden vine ties, tomatoes, grapes etc.
cleaner streets – less auto trash
greener – multiple uses, less energy to produce than paper
Industrial fuel – Did you know right in WS two industrial plants burn used tires? Never smell em do ya? Scrubbers.
puking – when yer friends get too drunk.. instead of puking in your car… plastic bags!
sucking chest wounds or tourniquets
quick oral sex dam … see drunk and puking..
Ohhh the list is endless
September 19, 2011 at 7:37 pm #734247
velo_nutParticipantSeptember 19, 2011 at 10:50 pm #734248
oddrealityParticipantDitto singularname and velo-nut.Every plastic bag I get gets used at least one more time. Between cat littler and dog poop and adult diapers for my mom I use lots. I’d have to buy them so I would still use just as many.Maybe more.They do make biodegradable bags.I just got a notice from the city about them for yard waste. If they are good enough for the yard waste they are good enough for the grocery and the dog poop and the garbage can liner. So why not biodegradable?? Until we get those I need me my plastic bags.
How about we ban all the disposable diapers first? All those tons and tons of poopy diapers in the land fills seem worse then bags.They have plastic also you know. Yes, Id have to do something different for mom…but at least I’d have a darn bag to put it in!
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