- This topic has 120 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 6 months ago by redblack.
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October 6, 2016 at 8:30 am #860090
JTBParticipantWhat I understand JKB to be saying is that using the national anthem as a vehicle for protest offends his patriotic sensibilities; that’s clearly the case with many other people as well. Fine, they’re entitled to their opinion just as the protesters are entitled to make their statement.
It’s undeniable that the protests have been effective insofar as they have generated a much neglected and much needed discussion about racial injustice. So any debate about the effectiveness of the protesters’ strategy is sort of pointless other than to say something like “I wish they would have done something different.” Does that indicate an unwillingness to engage in a discussion about the issue of racial injustice or submit that conventional patriotic displays trumps the insistence on acknowledging a profound failure on the part of the entire nation?
I think this is incredibly important, and it’s frustrating to me that ruffled feathers, actual and perhaps imagined, can derail the discussion.
October 6, 2016 at 4:08 pm #860150
JoBParticipantJKB..
technically legal?
the technicality here is that an act is either clearly legal or illegal. this one is legal.I am sorry you are offended by using the national anthem as a vehicle for protests..
but you don’t seem to get that I am equally offended by the behavior that created a need for that protest..
and by the assertion that one should only protest that behavior in a manner that is “socially acceptable” to people who are not offended or affected by the behavior that sparks it..so..what is your standing here?
What horse do you have in the this race that is so over-riding that you have to take a protest about the manner in which black people are being treated in our justice system about the flag and nationalism.. totally ignoring the stated cause?
i’d love an answer to that question that does not include calling me snarky
October 6, 2016 at 7:39 pm #860172
JKBParticipantJoB, this is tiresome. Try sticking with the issues. Otherwise I’m left noting that I never used the “socially acceptable” phrase. You did. Nor did I say ‘snarky’. If we’re going to throw words back and forth, you’re the one who used “uppity n—-“.
I don’t know just what you mean by “I am sorry that…”, but I did not ask for an apology or for sympathy. Perhaps you should be sorry that advocates for a cause you identify with are making their case in an offensive manner?
October 6, 2016 at 9:13 pm #860178
JoBParticipantJKB..
thanks for making my point..
once again you avoid the actual issue.when you have to rely on semantics … denigrating other posters… strictly defined definitions of terms and issues defined only on terms you set to make your point..
you might as well give it up..
I am not at all sorry that advocates for a cause i identify with are making their case in a manner you find offensive…
it is getting press and without press there is no chance for making any case.
I do have to point out however… that when you label the black lives matter as a cause I identify with .. as though there is no basis to that cause.. it says a lot more about why you are offended than i think you wanted to reveal.
this really isn’t about patriotism and the flag at all…
and frankly. that’s not even a clever smoke screen.which brings us back to the point of the sarcastic comment i made referencing your argument… about “uppity _____ ”
you know.. the comment you chose to misinterpret…
just as you state you didn’t infer that my comment was snarky because you didn’t use the word snarky … or that your argument isn’t based on the protest being socially unacceptable because you didn’t use that phrase either…
It’s really too bad because this could have been such a good conversation.
October 6, 2016 at 9:45 pm #860180
JKBParticipantJoB, very little of that makes any sense. Mostly it’s attacks against things I never said.
A conversation is something I’d be part of. This I don’t need.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JKB.
October 6, 2016 at 10:37 pm #860184
HappyOnAlkiParticipantJKB, when your every post drips with condescension, it becomes more obvious that all you really want out of this “conversation” is the last word. Go for it.
October 6, 2016 at 10:42 pm #860185
JKBParticipantHappy, care to explain? Because otherwise that’s nothing but a snide remark. Back it up, or don’t.
As for getting the last word, you’re not paying attention. This thread was quiet, and I was happy to leave it there, until JoB started in. Decided not to let her remarks go undefended, that’s all.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JKB.
October 7, 2016 at 2:45 pm #860276
JoBParticipantOctober 8, 2016 at 12:53 pm #860355
JanSParticipanthahahahahaha…yeah, let’s blame JoB…that works…you were perfectly happy having the only say until someone disturbed it and disagreed…oh…like in a forum..imagine that. If you just want to have your own page with no disagreement…start one of your own…and be happy there. Only let people who agree post comments :D
have a good weekend !
October 8, 2016 at 1:11 pm #860357
JKBParticipantJan, your point? Was there anything there about the topic, or did you just want to yell at me?
October 8, 2016 at 6:45 pm #860386
mark47nParticipantJKB, do you refer to Robert’s Rules when having informal conversations with friends? Your insistence that there be no editorializing or criticism of your rhetoric is unrealistic and your responses to such are condescending.
Before you insist that I provide you with “proof” read the last 5 pages.
By the way…I threw some spleen in there for you. It’s sort of squishy. Get it quick our it’ll smell bad.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by mark47n. Reason: Needed some more cow bell
October 8, 2016 at 8:04 pm #860398
JKBParticipantMark47n, how about helping out? Point me to an example of “insistence that there be no editorializing or criticism”.
And several of you criticize my writing style, calling it ‘condescending’. Okay, be helpful. Show me an example (specific, not some sweeping condemnation) and offer how I might have made the point with more tact.
October 8, 2016 at 8:06 pm #860399
JoBParticipantJKB
“JoB, very little of that makes any sense”October 8, 2016 at 9:40 pm #860410
mark47nParticipantPerhaps it’s your writing style. For instance this one: “Point me to an example of ‘insistence that there be no editorializing or criticism'”. You want specific examples and proof to be placed in front of you stating that you said this thing or that thing. Have you gone back and reread the thread from another perspective? Sought out the implicit from the explicit?
Here is a specific example, “Jan, your point? Was there anything there about the topic, or did you just want to yell at me?” JanS was editorializing and you were on her about that very thing.
For myself, I can say that I don’t expect everyone to like what I have to say but why should I allow that to muzzle me? That said, I’ve had plenty of unpleasant words slung my way and I’ve written many a retort and then deleted it because it’s just not worth the hassle. It’s not personal, usually, or at least, it’s not really meant to be.
Besides, how do I know you’re not all just figments of my fevered imagination?
October 8, 2016 at 10:41 pm #860411
JKBParticipantBecause any worthwhile febrile imagination would do better?
“Not personal, or not meant to be” is interesting. Forum talk is in these little blurbs, lacking tone-of-voice or other personal clues. So if what’s written is personal, but wasn’t meant as such, how does the conversation go forward?
(Assuming this post goes through). JoB – I wrote a response that the system isn’t posting. I’ll try to get it through.
October 9, 2016 at 12:28 am #860412
JKBParticipantJoB – I’m going to call out your use of “uppity n____” as an offensive slur that belongs back in the Jim Crow days. What were you thinking?
Or to JanS, who also used ‘uppity’ in an early post.
You people are nitpicking my writing style, while offering language that you yourself would have called hate speech.
JoB, you suggested that I was misinterpreting this, when in fact I had offered no interpretation at all, other than to note you were the one who’d said it. Care to explain?
October 9, 2016 at 10:07 am #860432
JoBParticipantJKB
you have ridden this dead horse into the ground.
what do you want me to say? that in a moment of frustration and snark i posted that line as a reflection of your remarks.. because that is what it boils down to .. the great “how dare they” “uppity ___________”.
Yup.. in a moment of snark i mocked what you said. And in this moment of clarity i pretty much stand by it.Do i need to tell you how tiring that argument is? Or that it is any more palatable clothed in what you think is politically correct language?
They dare because they are directly affected by what is happening.. and if you can’t get that .. that’s really your problem.. not mine.
I have my priorities straight.
I am far more offended by the behavior that triggered the protests than by the protests..
and quite frankly.. i can’t see why you’re not.If that makes me some kind of big meanie.. so be it. i am a big meanie.
i don’t know how i can be more clear.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JoB.
October 9, 2016 at 12:38 pm #860445
JanSParticipantyou did misinterpret…I did not mean it as a slur. I know what I post, kind sir. I meant it as sarcasm about what you were posting…it smacked of how dare he, he needs to sit down and know his place. I’m sorry if that offends you..but now it smacks of you are good at blaming other people for what you implied. Yes, you didn’t outright say it…people who are offended at a black man protesting the treatment of black people in this country don’t usually say what they really mean…because they know there will be backlash…passive/aggressive for sure. Yep, dead horse…agreed.Tired of you telling me and others what we said/implied, yet can take no responsibility for yourself.
October 9, 2016 at 9:39 pm #860474
JKBParticipantFor some time now, I’ve participated in these discussions even though they’re often unpleasant. Occasionally I learn something, and that helps.
I think it may be time to stop. I can’t prevent the continuous stream of attacks by anything other than pointing out how ridiculous they are.
When the topic devolves to hating something that I did not say, on the assumption that I was thinking it, there’s nowhere to go.
When argument is based on arrogance – the belief that one holds the truth of the matter and therefore any disagreement is evil – there’s no conversation to be had.
When it’s based on hypocrisy – railing at someone for imagined offence while committing far worse oneself – well, that doesn’t help either.
In a world where sometimes people are attacked physically or legally for what they’ve said, you might be careful about your rants. JoB and JanS, you’re close to criminal slander, or would be if there are damages.
The really surprising bit is that the pearl of wisdom came from redblack: that this is politics on the Internet and one should expect all this. Maybe I was overly optimistic about what’s otherwise a pretty nice neighborhood blog/forum.
Anyway, that’s about it.
October 10, 2016 at 3:03 pm #860538
JanSParticipantback at ya…look inward
October 10, 2016 at 7:29 pm #860551
redblackParticipantJKB: there are legal tests for slander. nothing in these fora passes those tests.
and, umm, i think i’m insulted by your surprise.
maybe not, though.
anyway, good fortune to you.
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