NRA ideas

[redblack]

smitty:

So, no. An armed guard in a bank, airplane or school will NOT make anyone safer.

you’re (sarcastically) comparing apples and screwdrivers.

dobro is right: this idea of armed guards is a red herring, and it deflects from the real issue: access to weapons by nut jobs. and we need to take a broader look at the definition of “nut job.”

ed: so tell me how a security guard armed with a hand gun is going to bring down a guy with full body armor while staring down the barrel of a high-caliber rifle and surrounded by children

in my opinion, you’re just ensuring that the security guard will be the first target.

and hey, smitty. right back atcha. conservatives won’t talk about sensible gun control – or even admit that we have a problem which isn’t caused by poor people – because liberals say so. it goes both ways.

listen. i know it’s uncomfortable for you, and the NRA draws a lot of water for republicans. but we are going to be examining our right to bear arms, which arms are appropriate, and who can get them. and we’re going to do that first.

the country demands it.

hell, i was demanding it after gabby giffords got shot in the face. and i remember telling republicans, “you had better ferret out the gun nuts in your midst, because they will take you down with them.”

but did you listen? no.

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[Smitty]

“listen. i know it’s uncomfortable for you, and the NRA draws a lot of water for republicans. but we are going to be examining our right to bear arms, which arms are appropriate, and who can get them. and we’re going to do that first.

the country demands it.”

….”but did you listen? no.”

How do you know that? How do you know I don’t agree with you 100% but think unless and until we can get these guns off the streets we should do the prudent thing and put security guards in our schools?

It might very well be a two step process. 1) Guards in schools up until. 2) “Sensible” gun control takes effect. I assume it would take awhile for guns to start disappearing from the streets. Years, maybe.

I think people just assume that if you advocate for guards in schools you are therefore against every other solution. Which is why most won’t answer the question, and the ones who do provide no proof(as I did with the guard at Columbine calling for evacuation and drawing fire from the gunmen precious minutes before police arrived). Why people need to throw firefighters into the mix is beyond me, but appears to be utter deflection.

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[dobro]

“…schools you are therefore against every other solution.”

guards in schools are not a “solution” unless you want to figure out how they can be implemented. That’s the part you don’t want to talk about. Which shows that you’re not really interested in “solutions” you’re just interested in arguing.

Firefighters are now in the mix because gun violence has reached a level I’ve never heard of before, the deliberate targeting of first responders with the same kind of currently legal military style weapons. We’re talking about a larger problem. join in if you wish. Got any ideas about that?

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[DBP]

I would love to comment on this, but I’ve pledged not to be involved in anything political until at least January 2. And with any luck, I’ll be able to push that date out even further.

Now then, where was I?

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[waynster]

……this I will say if you arm one moron you must arm them all its only fair to give them all a chance to shoot each other before the next set shows up….The time has come today to stop the NRA not only from us…. from them self’s…..

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[redblack]

smitty:

How do you know that? How do you know I don’t agree with you 100%

because none of you says it.

but for the record, you’re advocating doing the thing that the NRA suggests first – and the most expensive thing to taxpayers, many of whom believe that arming teachers and effectively miltarizing schools is the wrong way to go about it.

your first answer is also a boon to the gun and ammo industry, without putting any restrictions on their freedom to engage in the commerce of death.

why not demand that our government – actually politicians – do the right thing first, and seek a solution that takes away the ability to obtain assault weapons at will, sometimes anonymously? i.e. the gun show loophole and internet gun sales.

and i will note that a handful of republicans have come out in favor of a renewed and more effective assault weapons ban. don’t hear about them much in the “liberal” media, though, do ya’?

think there might be some collusion going on here, smitty? and that by not talking about the weapons industry while we all blithely engage in non-specific babble about “gun control,” we’re complicit?

but let’s get back to my first point: your party has a serious problem with the NRA and the gun nuts.

“don’t tread on me.”

or what? are they going to shoot me if i advocate gun control? or just kook up the internet some more with vague threats of insurrection?

amazing. republicans were all up in arms (pun intended) over the exact same weapons killing one of our border agents during fast and furious. but when the same shit happens on this side of the border to people who have nothing to do with the border war, the first answer is “arm the schools.”

and lest you think i’m just playing partisan politics, i fully recognize that the inner cities have the worst gun control problems. but you don’t see gang members posing as normal, law-abiding citizens at political rallies while brandishing their guns. and face it: almost all of these massacres have happened in the white suburbs.

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[EdSane]

@redblack, With calm and precision. The media as of late has sensationlized assault weapons. The advantage of that type of fire power is at medium and short distances. (i.e. the firefighters who were targeted). A handgun with an 18 round capacity at 30 feet is nearly as effective. Armed security wear vests too. In this instances the guard would most likely not actively seek out the individual but would act as an escort as s/he assists with the lockdown and evacuation of the school. As I have stated previously. All schools should have some form of security. In the wake of the shooting they should be re-addressing their concerns and amplifying what needs be. Which includes a debate on armed vs unarmed security. This debate would include costs. Personally, this should be done at the District level (not at the state or individual school level). This thread was specific to the NRA’s proposal. Real gun reform has to come from the federal government (which again is unlikely). Or from the state legilsature (also unlikely for previously mentioned reasons). As residents of Seattle and King County as a whole we need to admit to ourselves we live in a liberal bubble. Meaningful gun reform is unlikely.

@JanS, the militarization of our society started in the early 70s. (Thank Nixon). The drug war has spurned the prolifation of paramilitary forces (SWAT etc),,,We’ve already become the armed society. Go to a grocery store in Capitol Hill or in the South End. Armed guards at certain hours are the norm (off duty cops).

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[dobro]

“Meaningful gun reform is unlikely.”

Yes, as long as people like you refuse to get behind it. I have a feeling the spectacle of 20 dead elementary school kids might get some people off the dime. I sure hope so.

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[EdSane]

@dobro…No one asked me my personal opinion on gun control. Since I voted all “D” (for the most part) this year, clearly that is in line with reform. I’m a realist first. There was an article recently in the paper. One company sold more “high capacity magazines” in 72 hours then they had in 3.5 years. A renewed weapons ban would not stop those already in circulation (Since the ban ended in ’04, that number has grown by leaps and bounds). I’m interested in real solutions, not pipe dreams.

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[dobro]

“I’m interested in real solutions, not pipe dreams.”

As am I. And the “professional armed guards in 98,000 schools” is a damn long way from a real solution. Other countries are able to control gun violence. There’s no reason why we can’t.

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[JanS]

Ed,,,luckily, I keep my dollars in West Seattle..no armed guards at my local grocery store. We do not have the scene that I described anywhere in this city. I don’t mind an armed guard at a store…I pretty much respect the local police. But I described much more than that..we need to be careful what we ask for…

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[EdSane]

The scene that you described was outlandish. I was attempting to ground the statement into reality. Which is that the US over the last 40 years has increasingly resorted to a “more guns” mentality. Whether thats in government (paramilitary police, drones etc), or in the private sector (increasing use of armed guards). This has become part of the American culture. Which is why I believe real ‘gun reform’ is unlikely at best.

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[redblack]

ed: are you trying to convince us not to try? because staying silent is the surest way to prevent change.

that’s the kind of silence that helped us set the middle east on fire.

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[wakeflood]

OK, to say that you don’t think we’ll ever get rid of guns is to give up on any significant change. It can happen. Google Australia. They took away guns in ’96. They did. There was tremendous resistance but they did it. They bought them back from private owners by law. They reduced gun ownership by a huge amount. Their murder rate dropped. And it’s stayed low ever since. And now, what was outrageous and unconstitutional is now accepted.

This is a fight that will take at least a generation to change. But bold first steps are in order. And we SHOULD start with proposing something really big. By the time it gets watered down through the process you might still have a good first step. Fortune favors the bold and we need to strike while the emotion is still high. Be outraged and sustain it.

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[JoB]

we have choices here..

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[Spodie]

Smitty:

Not arming teachers. Not arming students. Arming a trained security guard. Would that make things less safe? How so? Please explain.

Sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

Still having trouble with such a simple concept?

How about you explain how somebody gets accidentally shot with no guns around?

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