Mandate?

[hooper1961]

work, i was laid off in the 1993 recession and took not one unemployment check! i busted my butt finding work! enough is enough job, the victim mentality needs to stop.

everyone knows how to use a shovel and a hammer! yes it can be tough work but it’s honest work and society gets something in return such as a new bridge, fixed roadway a water pipe that isn’t 100+ years old!

i would much rather see money spent on public works than on extending unemployment.

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[kootchman]

It creates public debt JoB…. even the entire national interstater systems was a pay as you go program. See JoB, I am caring less and less about people who are unemployed and have no skills… go get them! I say go off the cliff… we tried a reorganization…. sorta like the pleas made to the bakers union at Hostess… they sure won that round… bet if there was no unemployment…they would be working on Monday.

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[JoB]

hoop..

in 1993 thee was work to be found.

it’s not so easy now.

kootch..

i don’t hear you worrying that all the tax breaks we are giving corporations to do business and create jobs overseas are contributing to the deficit…

You worry when individuals might benefit from the public purse.

Your lack of compassion for your fellow men saddens me…

your lack of willingness to admit that you benefited from the very public services that you would deny others makes me shake my heard in weary disbelief..

but your sour grapes..

that inspires pity kootch.

and don’t think that was what you had in mind.

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[JoB]

kootch…

“sorta like the pleas made to the bakers union at Hostess… they sure won that round… bet if there was no unemployment…they would be working on Monday.”

you left out the part where if they had been at work on monday it would have been without the pensions they earned and for wages that would have required many of them to apply for public assistance.

i thought your mantra was that underpaid workers should help themselves by seeking better jobs… not by accepting conditions of employment that would force them onto the public dole.

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[hooper1961]

JoB

better to have a job than no job. the hostess employees were warned!

like many others i have taken a big cut in pay over the past few years. i too would like to make the money i made in 2008. i have been draining savings since 2009. that is why you are supposed to save during good times!

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[JoB]

hoop..

“better to have a job than no job. the hostess employees were warned! “

what seems to be lost in all of this is that the workers at wonder were already facing the loss of the futures they had invested in while baking all of those twinkies…

they can get another low paying low return on your future job somewhere else…

they had one chance to retain the futures they thought they had built there…

this wasn’t just about a pay cut hoop… it was about benefits and pensions…

you know.. pensions.. a worker’s savings account for that rainy day when they could no longer work.

I am sorry you are draining your savings to get by hoop..

but if you think it’s justified for employers to hand out the kind of ultimatums Wonder did to their employees while rewarding the executives who ran the company in such a way that they had to raid employee pensions to show a profit….

i wouldn’t count on another good time to replenish them.

those workers rights you are giving away are your own..

even if you own your own company.

Who do you think the profiteers will go after when they have drained their employee’s resources.

by your own admission, your wealth is already slowly being transferred to someone else’s pocket.

where do you think THAT will end?

and how do you think you can end it without putting citizens back to work at a wage that allows to stop draining government resources?

those who don’t have can’t spend

and when they can’t spend.. small business die

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[kootchman]

You keep saying it.. it is no more true today then it was yesterday… the government does not give tax breaks to invest overseas. Well JoB .. now they have none of those things. They are unemployed, pensionless, .. if that’s a win…I saw the video..chanting “shut it down, shut it down”.. well, they did. You keep the illusion going that you can keep business here with draconian taxes… String it all together… you can’t meet pension obligations that there is no revenue for. Who in their right mind would invest a dollar in a unionized company? I know whee it will end. I am prepared as I could get. Tell me, JoB.. there are less people working today then when Obama took office.. I watched Austin Gousbly squirm on that one! The US government spend… $1.65 for every dollar of revenue… how long do you think that can continue? Just a wild guess… see the magnitude of the tax hike to even get close to a balanced budget? And damned if Shumer thinks another 500 billion in stimulus money is just what we need. .. where ya going to cut? After all is said and done… it’s not the “profiteers”… ( from which pensions and benefits come) … the single largest draining of your resources is your government. Wait until the waiter comes with the check….. you are going to wish you stuck with a glass of water and breadsticks. Sadly in a sense, you are right… those with the mobility can largely avoid the fallout…. most won’t. You cannot spend 165% more than your income and win. I ain’t picking up the dinner tab… seperate checks please!

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[JoB]

Kootch

“you can’t meet pension obligations that there is no revenue for it”

but you can bonus the executives who relieve the company of it’s pension obligations?

have you ever noticed that the executives who preside over the pension busting at their companies and receive those incredible bonuses for doing so are on their way out the door?

that’s because all they understand is the wall street formula of cutting labor costs to make the bottom line look good… they don’t understand the business they are running.

you can pick up the check kootch.

since you are the one who benefits from policies like these

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[wakeflood]

Hey Kootch,

You remember just a few short years ago when we were running gov’t SURPLUS’ as far as they could project? Yeah, that was the 90’s, dude. And they were paying down the debt. And making SS solvent for 75 yrs. And they had higher taxes on everything than they do now.

The only things that changed was a new “businessman” president who ran two wars and made tax cuts on the credit card. Gee, wonder who thought THAT was a good idea? And I wonder where all the Teabaggers were then? Fools.

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[wakeflood]

And oh yeah, unemployment was at historic lows too. But that’s all just inconvenient facts, right?

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[meg]

wakeflood @34&35,

Yeah. Robbing from the future, they were, in the 90s. And the future they robbed… was Now.

It IS possible to live very well, have ‘surpluses’, for a small amt of time just using the credit card or playing an inflatable Ponzi scheme. There are diminishing returns tho, to that strategy – can’t do it again (the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time) as easily. And the pay back is cruel. But pay back seems to be the future’s problem – so, easily disregarded.

Unemployment was low, sure, but not because Americans were making anything real, or building real wealth. America’s economy was 2 ponzi bubbles. In the 90s and 2000s we inflated TWO very large debt bubbles, 2 Ponzi leverage bubbles. And we inflated them, back to back. They were the Ponzi Tech Bubble & Ponzi RE Bubble. Ponzi Tech ran inflated and burst under Clinton. Then it was quickly turned into the Ponzi Real Estate bubble under baby Bush, running and inflating and bursting once again, in 2008. And with no more inflatable bubbles waiting in the corridors, we were hit with long overdue economic contraction.

Debt is NOT wealth; Leverage is not wealth. Debt, when it masqaurades as wealth, has rapidly diminishing returns. It’s Payback Bites.

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[JayDee]

I hate to agree with Kootchman on one thing: All Bush tax cuts should end. Period. The reason we projected a surplus so long ago is because our tax receipts were equal to or greater then our outlay. It worked then, it should work now. If not, go for taxing carried interest income too since we will need more revenue…it can only balance the books more fairly since it is income…so is my 401k but it will be taxed full meal deal when I withdraw it. Why shouldn’t those like Romney do so as we’ll have to? After all, he is supposedly retired from Bain?

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[dobro]

Econ 101- Capitalism is a constant series of boom-bust or “bubbles”. This is built into the system. It is not a steady state system. Capitalism must be properly regulated or bad stuff happens.

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[kootchman]

Your forget a few things wakeflood.. like the kicking off the welfare roles of 50% of the recepients? Wanna see a video of Clinton’s speech.. y;know the one.. “the era of big government is over? Amazing how many people magically become employed when there isn’t 2 years of unemployment benefits… or cradle to grave biscuits and treats from your Uncle Sugar. Yep. That housing bubble was government interference into private markets with subsidized credit.. and so was the tech “bubble” when 401K’s hit the scene and like magic the market was awash in cash… chasing market valuations instead of actual companies with good returns on invested capital. aka dividend income. Like that Clinton model? Obama has run more debt on Afghanistan then Bush…and.. he is borrowing a hell of a lot more at a faster rate. We didn’t make a dent in the national debt under Clinton… but you can thank the Republican Congress headed by Gingrich for that restraint. We almost had Hilarycare.. yee gads!

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[JoB]

hoop

“phasing out the Bush tax cuts would avoid the so called cliff by allowing people to adjust to paying more taxes over time. i am talking about every single one of the cuts including those that you and i in the middle benefit from!”

an increase in taxes won’t kill the middle class…

they will in fact simply pay them

but those tax dollars will not get spent in our communities… so businesses that depend upon them will fail.. which will increase unemployment.. which will spread the tax burden over a decreasing pool of taxpayers.

i am thinking that is not what you had in mind.

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[meg]

dobro – capitalism does not make speculative ponzi bubbles; leverage & easy credit does. further, economics isn’t a science, it’s more a philosophy. problem for the last century is that economics has been treated like its a science, where, if you just set up certain models (or scenarios & regulations), economists expect to get predictable results. thus, they argue & opine on how the levers should be turned. last century, everyone fell in love with science. before that, economics was more like philosophy or history. but the scientific tendency of the 1900s made it irresistably attractive to put economics into the Sciences category. I can’t wait til someone figures out that the theories and models haven’t actually worked — except when all boats are floating.

Next, we don’t even have capitalism, so why bother to call it that. We have crony capitalism with the heavy influence of govt. skewing every input and every outcome.

true capitalist free market, is dead.

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[dobro]

“true capitalist free market, is dead.”

True capitalist free market never existed. Please name the historical period in the US in which the gov’t, its trade policies, regulations, and crony/lobbyist connections had no effect on the machinations of the market.

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[redblack]

like i’ve said: want to see what unregulated, unchecked free market capitalism looks like? take a look at aurora avenue north.

or maybe at the hole foods site, which is about to get a whole foods as its neighbor.

unregulated free market capitalism is merely narcissism writ large and institutionalized, with a healthy dose of stupidity thrown in to keep it interesting.

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