is it time for the women in America to stage a walk out?

[JoB]

It sure worked in Sweden…

of course.. theirs is a smaller economy
but i am pretty sure it would be more effective than marching

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[AK14]

Why?

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[JoB]

AK14

oh.. i don’t know..
equal rights? You do know the ERA was never ratified.. don’t you?
if it had been nobody would be talking about Roe v Wade

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[AK14]

I guess I don’t understand which women’s rights you believe are being violated?

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[JanS]

AK14, first, do you pay attention to what’s going on in this country? Really pay attention? Watch news? Anything? I’ll help with a couple…healthcare (men in Congress deciding if women can have birth control,abortions etc.), equal pay for equal work. There’s a start for you.

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[AK14]

Okay thanks. First off I’m pro-life and believe it’s wrong to kill a child in the womb so we may as well just not go down that road and agree to disagree.
As for the equal pay for equal work and gender pay gap you refer to, I’m surprised people still believe in this myth. Numerous studies “show that women and men who work the very same hours in the very same jobs at the very same levels of skill and experience do not have the pay gaps.” http://www.nationalreview.com/article/438775/pay-gap-studies-disprove-myth-sexism-responsible
People like Thomas Sowell and Walter E. Williams, among others, have studied this extensively and demonstrate that the so called gender-wage pay gap is based off Apples to Oranges comparisons. Also in the aforementioned article: “Women as a group do get paid less than men as a group. But not for doing the same work. Women average fewer annual hours of work than men. They work continuously for fewer years than men, since only women get pregnant, and most women are not prepared to instantly dump the baby on somebody else to raise.” For further analysis, Read the book: Women’s Figures – written by Diana Furchtgott-Roth (a woman): “The myth that women make 78 cents on a man’s dollar is a standard refrain in popular media and serves as a rationale for affirmative action for women. Unstated is that for women and men with the same job and work experience, the wage gap practically disappears. In Women’s Figures, Manhattan Senior Fellow Diana Furchtgott-Roth shatters the myth of the wage gap. Women are continuing to gain ground relative to men, and in some cases, they have even reversed the gender gap. Rather than helping women, preferential policies undermine America’s idea of meritocracy, and call into question the value of women’s hard-earned achievements.”
“As far back as 1971, single women in their thirties who had worked continuously since high school earned slightly more than men of the same description. As far back as 1969, academic women who had never married earned more than academic men who had never married.”
-From the Thomas Sowell article referred to previously
My wife is a great example of this and so is my oldest sister who are extremely successful in their respective fields and married much later than most women. They make much more money than my other sister who chose to have 7 kids instead of focusing on her career – which I respect just as much. I’m glad they never took the time to complain about women’s rights and just worked hard to be successful whether it be in the corporate world or as a stay at home mother.
Like the saying says: You are entitled to your own opinions but you aren’t entitled to your own facts.

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[melissa]

It ain’t a myth. You’re referring to Diana Furchtgott-Roth the Trump advisor, the one who thinks that our president-elect isn’t a conservative. And her study — as well as your anecdotes (which, by the way, aren’t fact) — doesn’t take into account women who were forced out of the workforce because of the high cost of childcare or had to work part-time for the same reasons. It also doesn’t take into account that the gap is greater with more education. Please, take a gander at the AAUW study of the gender pay gap. The pay gap is even greater for women of color. So how about you go back to letting your wife and sis know how great it is that they’re not feminists and stop telling other women what they should be doing — with their bodies or anything else.
http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

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[JoB]

AK14
glad to hear you are pro life.

does that mean that you are also pro childcare and pro children’s health care?
and that you have taken a child someone else wasn’t able to care for into your home?

or just that you think you should be able to tell someone else what they should be responsible for?

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[JoB]

AK14
those apples and oranges are the differing opportunities offered to men and women that have created a workforce of women who are at or approaching retirement age and based on their lifetime earnings can expect about 75% of the social security income of their male age, education and work history peers.
and that’s no myth

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[AK14]

Wow, disrespect towards me from both responders.
“It ain’t a myth.” Well said. Bottomline, it’s about choices that people make, just like you said about women leaving the workforce to raise children. Your cited study says education doesn’t matter but it doesn’t take into account that Men and women pursue different types of education and different careers. Some careers pay more than others. Women are more likely choose careers that allow for time off to raise children – such as in education. This doesn’t mean women are being held down. Again, childcare is the choice of having children and of course it disrupts a career. That means women are working less. Meaning they are getting paid less overall because of fewer hours worked. That’s not discrimination, that’s based on choices – even if they are difficult ones. Not once did I tell you what you should be doing. There was a time when women really did face discrimination and there were brave women who fought against that throughout history. I am thankful for them.

“Glad to hear you are pro-life.” Seems a little sarcastic which isn’t the best way to have a conversation. Again, that 75% of social security is based on past choices that men and women have made in their careers, that’s not discrimination. I don’t believe the government should bail people people out and get involved because of a person’s choices. For those that are in unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own, I believe that this is where private, non-profits come into play. Pro childcare and pro children’s health care, what does that even mean? Of course I believe children should be cared for and should be able to get health care. No, I do not believe free childcare is the responsibility of the government.

Look, I get it, we have different beliefs and different philosophies. I also understand that since moving to Seattle I probably doubled the number of conservatives in this city. I just hoped I could engage in civil discourse but after reading the way people respond to each other behind the safety of their computer screens I realize that is not possible. I wish you both the best.

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[AK14]

This article (from the Huffington post) talks specifically about the AAUW report Melissa cited and how it specifically exposes the pay gap myth: “The AAUW has now joined ranks with serious economists who find that when you control for relevant differences between men and women (occupations, college majors, length of time in workplace) the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing. The 23-cent gap is simply the average difference between the earnings of men and women employed “full time.” What is important is the “adjusted” wage gap-the figure that controls for all the relevant variables. That is what the new AAUW study explores.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html

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[redblack]

AK14 said:

“I don’t believe the government should bail people people out and get involved because of a person’s choices.”

cool. let’s eliminate the child tax credit.

also, if you’re of a libertarian bent, then what business is it of yours (or a church’s, or the state’s) if a woman has an abortion?

abortion’s legality is based on a fundamental right to privacy.

same goes for sexual behavior between consenting adults.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by redblack.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by redblack.

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[JKB]

Whenever I hear sweeping claims about a large group, I try to view them in the light of people actually not all being alike.

If some aggregate statistic on one group ‘women’ differs from the stat on the complementary group ‘men’, you haven’t learned much beyond ‘needs more research’.

I’d be shocked if pay gaps were the same across all industries. Why not do some homework and call out the ones where there’s something definite?

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[AK14]

Yes, my “general” belief is in a limited role of the government as was intended by our Founding Fathers.

Honestly, I don’t have a strong opinion on the child tax credit. I haven’t done research on it as I do not have children. I’m guessing my sister with 7 children appreciates it! Maybe my views will change concerning this matter, maybe they won’t.

I’m not libertarian. I would consider myself a Constitutional Conservative.

The issue on abortion comes down to 1 single issue. Is it a human being in the womb? If it is, abortion is wrong because it is killing a child and this trumps any right to privacy. If it is just a lump of tissue, then you can believe whatever you want. Based on my research, I have come to the conclusion that the science of embryology definitively shows that it is a child in the womb. A lot of people haven’t done any research to understand this.

Sexual behavior between consenting adults – do whatever you want.

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[redblack]

that 1 single issue is no one’s business but the mother’s and her doctor’s. you have zero right to that information.

your feelings about the morality of the procedure don’t enter into it.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by redblack.

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[AK14]

Why not?

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[JoB]

AK14
wow.. so it’s not disrespectful of you to call label wage disparity a myth.
but disrespectful of me to point out that what you call a myth is a reality for women?
or to ask if your reverence for life extends to those who are not currently residing in a woman’s uterus and therefore her responsibility?
because whether or not to undertake that lifetime responsibility should be the sole decision of the person who will assume that responsibility… and no matter how good the birth control is that you are using.. it is not infallible nor does it account for unwanted sexual advances that produce pregnancy.

add to that .. a woman’s ability to earn is directly dependant upon responsibilities she may have towards dependant children.. therefore forcing her to give birth to a child she will be legally, morally and financially responsible for directly impacts her ability to earn an income.

it would be far different if woman could choose between apples and oranges..
but that isn’t the case .. is it?

“Again, that 75% of social security is based on past choices that men and women have made in their careers, that’s not discrimination”

I am assuming you simply have not read your history.

Had you done so you would know that career choices for women were severely limited for those women who are now entering retirement.

i know.. because i was one of those women.. who incidentally had to get written permission from the man i was divorcing to get a job… at a department store… could i repeat that for you? I had to have written permission from the man “responsible” for me to get a job.. even if that man was no longer willing to be financially responsible for either his children or me.

that is discrimination…

you can claim it no longer exists and i will agree with you that the days of requiring written permission to work are thankfully long gone.. but not so long as to have affected the lifetime earnings of women who are reaching retirement age now.

it’s only “choices” when you actually have the same choices as your male counterpart.

and wage discrimination is still a fact… pulling statistics limited to women and men beginning their careers in the workforce and implying that they demonstrate equality totally ignores the unequal wages of women who have chosen to forgo families for the sake of lifelong careers…
it turns out that as a group they do no better financially than their counterparts who chose to juggle both careers and families.

it is a fallacy that you can pull one “fact” that you think disproves a hypothesis and negate the entire body of evidence based on that “fact”…

sorry. but this is a subject i happen to know a great deal about having seen it develop from the ground up. so to speak.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by JoB.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by JoB.

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[AK14]

The disrespect came from your sarcasm, not from your attempt at refuting what I said.
Like I said regarding the abortion issue, it comes down to the one issue I mentioned, not whether a woman should have to take on the responsibility. If it is in fact a defenseless child than a human life takes precedence over the responsibilities that result.
I’m sorry to hear that you were personally discriminated against and you bring up a very good point about how woman who were discriminated against in the past are feeling the effects today. That is certainly unfortunate. I’m glad that things have significantly improved.

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[JoB]

btw. thanks for so aptly illustrating the need for a walkout…

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[AK14]

Explain.

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[JoB]

Ak14
is a chicken egg a chicken? well.. no not really.
is an egg that develops into an embryo a chicken?
not really.
there is a reason for the old saying “don’t count your chickens before they hatch”

an embryo is not a person.
It doesn’t become viable in any way until it can survive outside the womb of the woman carrying it. Since you say you “know” the science.. can you tell me at which week that occurs?
then can you tell me which week abortion becomes illegal except to save the life of the mother?

funny thing how quickly the argument against abortion falls away once you know those two numbers.

Lets follow that up a bit.
Do you know what percentage of pregnancies actually spontaneously miscarry in the first 20 weeks?
or the numbers for still births

how about the numbers for the percentage of babies who die due to sudden infant death syndrome?
or the infant mortality rate in the United States?

these are numbers you really should acquaint yourself with if you want to intelligently discuss whether you have the right to decide whether or not a woman should invest 9 months of her life in the hopes of carrying a child to term.. let alone committing the rest of her life to being responsible for the child she birthed…

because they are numbers women who choose to attempt to carry a child to term are very familiar with …

as it turns out. there is more to this subject than a simple decision as to whether life begins at conception or at birth.. as pregnancy is a far more complicated process than that..

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[JoB]

AK14..

things have not significantly improved.. as evidenced by the disparity in earnings of college educated women in their 30s and 40s who do not earn the same income for the same work as their male counterparts and do not have the same opportunity for advancement in their careers as their male counterparts.

the only wage group in which there is “improvement” is in starting wages… and unfortunately if you look at the actual numbers you will find that instead of women’s starting wages rising to meet what was once the industry standard for males.. men’s starting wages have fallen.

That’s not improvement.. not for either gender… which might be why the one group of males whose votes were for Hillary and not Trump were males under 40.

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[JKB]

Welcome to dealing with the keeper of truth and wisdom in the modern world.

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[AK14]

JoB, which studies show this? You don’t cite sources so I can’t just go on what you say. Even the AAUW (a feminist organization) survey that Melissa provided shows that it is about choices not discrimination. Here’s the link again: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html

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[AK14]

JoB: “It doesn’t become viable in any way until it can survive outside the womb of the woman carrying it.”
So this is what qualifies them as a human being? Why does viability determine humanity? Newborns, like fetuses, lack the immediate capacity to make conscious, deliberate choices, so what’s wrong with infanticide? They can’t survive without the care of their mothers. In some countries premature babies will die whereas in America they will be able to survive due to Western Medicine. So is one of these a human and the other not simply due to viability outside the womb? Viability outside of the womb has gotten earlier and earlier and also depends on which country your born in based on medical access and technologies.

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