Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Fiscal Cliff Pt. 2 – the bloodletting
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January 3, 2013 at 8:53 pm #781477
wakefloodParticipantI’m assuming that a Gilligan’s Island style bicycle generator would be able to power up a TV long enough to gather the day’s Faux News talking points.
January 3, 2013 at 9:24 pm #781478
hooper1961Memberplease explain to me why raising the retirement age is not a reasonable position? life expectancy is far longer than in the past!
January 3, 2013 at 9:37 pm #781479
JanSParticipanthooper…I’m on Medicare, and I got a COLA at the beginning of the year…a whole 13 bucks a month…that’s a whole $156.00 per year…wow..it’s gonna break the bank…
January 3, 2013 at 9:58 pm #781480
hooper1961Membermultiply by millions of people and compound it each year and it quickly adds up
January 4, 2013 at 1:01 am #781481
wakefloodParticipantHoop, I’m curious. When SS age is raised and benefits are cut and you essentially shred the remaining safety net to something threadbare, what exactly is supposed to change and why will it be demonstrably better for our society?
I’m absolutely serious. I can’t for the life of me come up with how this makes us better or more happy or anything positive.
We’ll have more homeless, more crazy people out on the streets, more children hungry, more sick dying far too young. What does that solve? Why is that a better society?
And don’t tell me that churches and charities will pick up the slack. They never have and won’t. I’ve been around lots of church-going folk and they’re more interested in who’s got a newer Mercedes or a nicer coat from Nordies.
Go ahead, describe this “better society” you envision. I’ll wait…
January 4, 2013 at 1:41 am #781482
miwsParticipantGo ahead, describe this “better society” you envision.
Open up wide, Baby Bird! I have a hunch that Mama Bird is just going to regurgitate some of his crap, instead of actually answering your question.
Mike
January 4, 2013 at 2:43 am #781483
hooper1961Memberraising the SS retirement age means a person has a few more years to save and and raised retirement and refining the COLA helps ensure SS solvency.
and my question is what is the end game if SS becomes insolvent? what is it 15 to 20 years from now the government IOU’s will (theoretically) been paid back. then what penalize the savers? cut all benefits across the board by 25%?
the point is minor tweaks now can avoid massive revisions in the future.
January 4, 2013 at 2:43 am #781484
JoBParticipanthoop
” if nothing is done the &*^% will hit the fan when the IOU’s are paid back and the system starts running a deficit.”
do you have any idea at all when this is supposed to happen?
January 4, 2013 at 3:03 am #781485
hooper1961Memberi have heard in 2030’s when i will be retiring. further research i found the following:
mattbruenig.com/2011/08/16/the-myth-of-social-security-insolvency/
“The actual issues with the solvency of Social Security are extremely minor. The massive Social Security trust fund will allow the program to pay out benefits at the current level until 2038. At that point — absent modifications to the program — revenues will only be able to pay out 81 percent of promised benefits. That is to say, if the federal government did absolutely nothing over the next 27 years to shore up Social Security, a one time cut of 19 percent in 2038 would make the program solvent into the infinite horizon. This would be a sub-optimal way forward, but it underscores how solid Social Security is: even at 1.9 workers per retiree, the program could pay out at 81 percent of the current, inflation-adjusted rate without increasing revenue at all.”
January 4, 2013 at 3:05 am #781486
hooper1961Memberare you ok with an across the board 19% cut in benefits in the future for your kids? grand kids?
January 4, 2013 at 3:12 am #781487
JoBParticipanthoop..
you poor poor baby
you seem to have ignored the part of your quote which said
“it underscores how solid Social Security is: even at 1.9 workers per retiree, the program could pay out at 81 percent of the current, inflation-adjusted rate without increasing revenue at all.”
instead of raising the age for retirees it would make far more sense to raise the current cap on contributions…
January 4, 2013 at 6:05 am #781488
hooper1961Memberminor tweaks now can avoid major changes in the future. raising the retirement age is far more equitable because it treats everyone exactly the same and would help keep SS solvent. frankly i am ok with an across the board cut of 19% in the future if this were to play. what i am most concerned about is seeing those that saved being penalized in the future by having their benefits cut more extremely than those that did not save.
from data i see on line the first $767 contributed is factored at 90%, $767 and less than or equal to $4,624 by 32% and it is only 15% at amounts over $4,624. thus it is clear from the formulas the more you contribute the less the return on the last dollar contributed. further SS has a maximum payout amount.
all i here you say is to increase the cap but nothing regarding the inequitable payback formulas!
the SS formulas are:
Step 1:
Enter your actual earnings in Column B, but not more than the amount shown in Column A. If you have no earnings, enter “0.”
Step 2:
Multiply the amounts in Column B by the index factors in Column C, and enter the results in Column D. This gives you your indexed earnings, or the approximate value of your earnings in current dollars.
Step 3:
Choose from Column D the 35 years with the highest amounts. Add these amounts.
$__________________
Step 4:
Divide the result from Step 3 by 420 (the number of months in 35 years). Round down to the next lowest dollar. This will give you your average indexed monthly earnings.
$__________________
Step 5:
Multiply the first $767 in Step 4 by 90%.
$__________________
Multiply the amount in Step 4 over $767 and less than or equal to $4,624 by 32%.
$__________________
Multiply the amount in Step 4 over $4,624 by 15%.
$__________________
January 4, 2013 at 6:09 am #781489
JoBParticipanthoop…
I am all for paying attention to the serious problems in our society..
but social security is way down on the list of urgent problems…
get a grip
better yet, get a life
January 4, 2013 at 6:23 am #781490
hooper1961MemberJoB you are correct SS can easily be fixed by raising the retirement age to reflect the fact people live longer! SIMPLE SOLUTION
January 4, 2013 at 7:42 am #781491
WorldCitizenParticipantDoes the fact that people live a little bit longer on average equate to the ability to earn a wage which allows them to save more before retirement? I have a hunch what the answer is, but I would like to hear some good solid numbers from those of you out there who believe this to be so. You do have numbers, right? You’re not just pulling these ideas out of your ass, are you?
January 4, 2013 at 4:35 pm #781492
JoBParticipantand would the loss in wage before retirement affect the amount of their social security check?
well.. yes.. it would.
world citizen…
i don’t know if hoop pulls those ideas out of his …
but i do know that he puts his words into my mouth…
January 4, 2013 at 5:26 pm #781493
hooper1961Memberworld bank life expectancy data in the US. in 1960 life expectancy was 69.77 in 2010 it was 78.24
this is 8 years longer and is significant from a SS standpoint. in 1960 a SS could be expected to draw SS on average about 5 years and in 2010 about 13 years that is more than double! this is very significant!
January 4, 2013 at 5:38 pm #781494
WorldCitizenParticipantAh, but it doesn’t answer the question, does it?
January 4, 2013 at 6:14 pm #781495
hooper1961Memberit more the answers the question; btw i see very active people in their 70’s every day!
January 4, 2013 at 6:16 pm #781496
hooper1961Memberyou simply do not want to admit it when the hoop proves with actual data you are wrong.
January 4, 2013 at 7:26 pm #781497
miwsParticipantOf course you see very active people in their 70’s, hoop.
What you may not see, are hidden issues such as arthritis, or other painful conditions, that may limit the amount of time they can be at that level of activity.
Yet these folks continue to be active, whether it’s participating in some activity for exercise, or doing things that help others, and probably quite often over-doing it, until the point of they are “paying for it” the next day…
Mike
January 4, 2013 at 8:31 pm #781498
hooper1961Memberthe hoop provided the stats that proved the point. not everyone lives to be about 78 years old; it simply is the average with some longer and some shorter. the point is the average is far higher than in the past and raising the retirement age to reflect this fact is flat out appropriate.
SS already has provisions (that are abused in some cases) for disability. thus your argument miws is simply hot air!
January 4, 2013 at 10:40 pm #781499
oddrealityParticipantPeople live longer…sometimes ..not everyone does. I guarantee you few are living longer without some sort of illness.A lot of those living longer wish they were not but get trapped in a system that values money over people and get more treatment than they want. I have seen this up close. Treatment for the truly old is awful..I could write a book about it after my recent experiences. All about money thanks to the “for profit” healthcare industry. Disgusting.
Most of my friends in their 60’s would be unable to work by 67.Some maybe a few hours a week, some not at all. Some might manage full time.They are crippled already or too sick. They likely will not live as long as their parents did because even though our parents generation did live longer than their parents they also had less chemicals in the air, water and food,less pesticides, as they grew up. Not to mention all the chemicals used in our baby boomer workplaces now prohibited to use due to their cancer causing properties..Not to mention all the drugs given with deadly side effects.A lot of boomers are dead already and never even received their SS. Money still in the collective pot.
Both people in a couple made up of baby boomers generally worked thus they paid a lot more into the system then their single worker [in most families]1950’s/60’s parents .When one dies, and one will go first no doubt about that unless they go in a car wreck or something, the survivor gets only the highest SS amount..not both.So a lot of money will be staying the pool and not paid out to them . Unlike our parents,at least for many more of us 50’s babies parents, we ALL worked.
Do you honestly believe people should work till they die?Believe me we boomers all started working when we were young like you did.I had real jobs [jobs with an actual paycheck] starting when I was 15.When do you think people should be allowed out of the workforce and into retirement so they can enjoy those precious few years?? How sick do they have to be before you think they should be able to enjoy their golden years? How crippled?
The problem with SS is not the people that paid into it getting it back,it is the fact it was stolen out of OUR fund.The government needs to pay SS back the billions upon billions they owe and it would be solvent. Why do you not screech about that ??Why is it ok that the money that was paid into SS by us was stolen??
There are really no jobs out there for old people. Only so many Wal-mart greeter jobs and believe me they let you go from your good job way before you turn 70.That actually is the way it should work as young people would have fewer jobs in the job pool if older people worked a long time past when they ought to be retired.Where is everyone supposed to work? As it is there are 4 people looking for work for each job available.
Hoop you remind me so very much of my father.The only value he placed on people was how much they made. He cared not that you might be doing something worthwhile with your life it was all about the money.He always had side businesses and when he retired from the big corporate world he continued with his small businesses…guess what?? He got alzheimer’s and then my step mother had to stop work to care for him.They spent a fortune on care. He died a miserable [and lonely I might add] death in a hospice facility .His wife left with only one SS payment lost half her income. All their savings spent on his care. He did no better than any one else in the end.He could not foresee the future you see. Neither can you. You are so much like him I chuckle at you.You have no idea what your future holds and you may also get your financial comeuppance.He was sure he was set for life with all his saving and hard work.He reaped as he sowed. We all do.
I am tired of simplistic black and white no shade of gray thinkers. People need to learn their critical thinking skills and really think things through..all the way through,the way things are in actuality not the way they wish things were.Critical thinking is a very important skill.
January 4, 2013 at 10:51 pm #781500
WorldCitizenParticipantFirst there’s the infant mortality stats which skew the numbers quite a bit. But let’s just pretend that doesn’t actually exist. (It does, though and you should check it out here: http://www.ssa.gov/history/lifeexpect.html )
When was the last time you hired a 70 year old? A 65 year old?
Then there’s the question of what time at the end of your life would be appropriate for not working a job. Is it unreasonable to think not everyone should be working after age 65?
You see the basic logic of your argument is sound..you say we live longer (not much actually) so should theoretically be able to work longer. What I don’t see you acknowledging is the very real situation most people find themselves in at an older age which has always existed. People get sick. They have nagging injuries that have worsened over time. There is dementia, Alzheimer’s, arthritis, bone density loss, poor vision, muscle loss, short-term memory loss, energy loss, etc. Yeah, we may be alive, but the responsibility of a job is not suitable for everyone past 65. Some, yeah, but let’s at least attempt to be realistic here. It’s the minority that should work, but only if they WANT to.
January 5, 2013 at 1:07 am #781501
hooper1961Memberthe older people i know in their 60’s and 70’s are all active and healthy, many still work! i think the key word here is ACTIVE
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