Conservative Dilema

[TheHouse]

Since Jan asked the question in another posting, I felt it would be better to discuss here.

Jan asked who I support since I have publically stated I would not vote for a Democrat and also stated publically that I would not support McCain.

This is a tough one. I’ve stated before that I tend to lean towards the Libertarian platform, but as usual the popular majority and media have played into the two party hype. Most people could not articulate why they want to vote for Obama besides the fact that he will bring “Change”. Not necessarily positive change, but change nonetheless.

My dilema is that I recognize that voting for a Libertarian candidate at this point is as useless as voting for Fred Thompson or Mitt Romney. Do I truly vote with my heart or do I play into what the political machine needs me to play into (voting for McCain)? Although I do not support McCain in many of his past votes, I do believe that he would make a better President than Obama or Clinton.

I will need to contemplate this a bit more over cupcakes at Coffee To A Tea before I truly decide.

[JanS]

I imagine that this is a difficult position for you. I have my own personal feelings about Mr. McCain (we could probably agree on a few things there). If I asked you a “what if”, what would you say…like “what if you could put anyone you wanted in the White House in November? Who would it be?” Let’s just imagine that it’s your choice alone, and it could be anyone, not just one who is running.

As a follow up question, who has the best cupcakes…CTAT or Cupcake Royale?

[JanS]

oh…and maybe why you pick who you’d pick?

[JoB]

inquiring minds really do want to know:)

[TheHouse]

In answer to your questions:

1) Newt Gingrich – check out http://www.newt.org

2) Coffee To A Tea beats CCR anyday (unless CCR refers to Credence Clearwater Revival).

[JanS]

First things first…he needs to change the name…I can’t take anyone named “Newt” seriously..I’m being a bit facetious here, but what immediately comes to mind is “eye of”…lol…interesting answer..I’ll have to mull that over…

I’ve never had the cupcakes from either place, so was curious….thanks…I had heard that the ones at CCR are pretty dry.

[Huindekmi]

I completely agree with House on one point:

Coffee to a Tea has MUCH better cupcakes.

[JoB]

house.. Newt???

well, Newt would tell you to elect any republican… that’s what he says.

he also says he is for real change…

i followed some of those links. he would like our govt to follow the common sense solutions that ‘business that works” has followed… things like outsourcing? privatization? denying health care? (because that sure is working financially for the health industry).

To give him his due, he does use the word innovation when speaking of business that works… but i have to suspect he is using that in the context of innovative ways to earn profit.. rather than, innovative ways to manufacture… or perhaps he is using both definitions together. (that would explain outsourcing.)

he wants to close schools that don’t graduate a high enough percentage of their seniors…

and what would he replace them with for those who can’t afford private education?

He doesn’t mention what he would do with those who are failed by our system now. Nor does he mention those who do graduate from those high schools. where would they go? will he discard them along with the failures?

and in the same thread he says …to paraphrase… not like unions who are only concerned with paychecks.

paychecks translates into jobs. So it seems Newt does not prioritize American jobs… at least not for those who don’t have an extensive education.

doesn’t sound like change to me.. just the progression of what has already been done and isn’t working.

and… it isn’t ok that Clinton let an intern of legal age give him a blowjob… but it is ok for Newt to do much more… because he married her? talk about a double standard.

the wife who forgave Clinton and maintained her home has a dysfunctional family, while the man who dumps his wife for a younger model is progressive?

Don’t think so… Not a slam.. just a comment.

I could care less about anyone’s sexual life as long as it doesn’t set them up for blackmail (which Clinton’s did… she kept the dress), but i do care about policies that would simply move more govt money into the hands of big business and would deny those citizens who need it most (our underprivileged children) the assistance they require to become useful citizens.

But.. if you are outsourcing American jobs, you don’t really need to educate those citizens, do you?

And that i think is at the bottom of where i see a fracture between fiscally conservative democrats and fiscally conservative republicans…

it is clear to me that fiscally conservative republicans see no need to invest in resources (i would call them people) they don’t need.

However, i would ask.. what quality of life will you have when the haves are in such a minority that they can only live safely in gated communities and only move about safely in armored vehicles with bodyguards? The true haves do that now while the rest of America wishes they could.

Works now, but what happens when those disenfranchised people get angry? sounds like life in Iraq to me.

and if you profiteer without planning… again.. like Iraq to me.

And house, are you safely one of the haves or in the next group to be systematically looted? Because this can only be maintained with systematic looting and there is nothing more to be gotten out of the true middle class.. so upper middle is next. What about all those investments that sit in volatile.. and subject to profit taking.. stocks? Without regulation, what protects you?

something to think about before you too become redundant.

i just realized this could be taken as highly inflammatory and as using jan to set you up and i am sure that wasn’t her intention … nor is it mine.

I am asking the same kind of questions i asked of the biggies from the students for a democratic society in my youth… when they got angry… what is the logical progression of your actions and is that really what you want?

they were only focused on the short term… as i believe Newt’s rhetoric does… as i believe the rhetoric of the conservative republicans does.

so.. comments made…questions asked house… and i meant them only in the least inflammatory way i could ask them.

i encourage other voices to join house. i know there are other republicans out there:) and though we may not change one another’s minds, we will come to a better understanding of differences… and where we are not so different… that could lead to true progress.

you have to start somewhere you know:) why not start at home.

[TheHouse]

Wow. I don’t have nearly the time you do to coment on every point you try to make above. At least one ideological difference between you and I is that I NEVER view myself as a victim, I always view things from an accountability viewpoint. This includes others. I’m always asking what I can do to better myself and my family, not what others can do. I believe that this ideological difference runs through the core of most Conservatives, but is one that Liberals generally lack.

You also use emotional terms/statements in your rant to appeal to the liberal psyche (ie…deny health care, where would those who can’t afford private education, looting of the middle class, etc). It’s a definite appeal to emotions to make people beilieve that Conservatives are evil, but none of them have any facts behind them. Anyone can visit a hospital to receive life threatening care (they cannot be denied by law) and anyone can go work for an employer that has health benefits….if your employer does not offer benefits, then work somewhere else. Basic economic priciples of supply and demand work on benefits just like any other product.

If underperforming schools are shut down, students won’t be denied an education. They might have to travel a greater distance, but they won’t be denied. Education should be privitized anyway…Education isn’t any different than any other product that does not have competition at the same price point (there is no incentive to improve it).

As for the looting of the middle class, what exactly has been “looted”? I am part of middle class America and feel like the only way I am “looted” on a continual basis is through taxes (something that Democrats like to do more of and Republican like to do less of).

Who do you think is going to pay for Universal Health Care? Who do you think is going to pay for all of the Educational Levies that supposedlypay for school improvements? YOU, the middle class taxpayer which will in turn give you less spending power and will in turn degrade your quality of life. You might argue that we should tax the wealthy more, which I oppose completely. People should be incented to improve their life situation in a Capitalistic society, not be punished. Once I become (notice the assumption that I will) a millionaire, I don’t want to be penalized..I want the ability to keep what I’ve earned and then decide who and what I will give my $$$ to.

Think about it folks….

[JoB]

Why house.. would paying proportionate taxes actually cause you to lose your incentive to become a millionaire? i don’t think so. Nor do i think that being taxed at a lower rate once you succeed is equitable.

Yes… i know that’s not in the tax code, but by the time you count in every tax write off.. which the rich have more access to than those with less money… the rich pay a much lower percentage of their income in taxes than the poor who don’t have enough money to invest in sheltering devices.

And what makes you think i view myself as a victim? Not so much. And i have good reason to if i chose. Nor, by the way do any liberals i know.

You make the assumption that if people have health care available through work, it will cover their medical expenses. Increasingly, not… unless of course you are lucky enough to be young and fit and have none. in which case.. you don’t need medical ins so much… so it might not matter to you. It will one day though because even conservatives age.

I bet it matters now to people traveling to foreign countries for procedures like knee replacements. And i bet it matters to people whose illness becomes serious enough that they lose their jobs and their health care at the same time.

And did you know that those without health insurance have a much higher mortality rate than those with health insurance when admitted to the same hospital for the same condition? And, were you aware that we have an incredibly high mortality rate for a civilized nation?

Probably not. And you probably think none of that can happen to you. It can. Because our health care has been “privatized” so that each business along the path of health care costs has plenty of incentive to make the most out of it that they can.

As for education, how far would you like our inner city children to travel (theirs are the schools that will be closed) to go to these mythical schools you say will take them? And who will bpay for the inevitable busing? And if the schools are privatized as you think they should be… they no longer have to take any child… so how likely do you think they will be to take any marginalized inner city child?

Public Schools were mandated because educated people make better citizens and better workers. And surprisingly, that’s cost effective. so…. why should schools be privatized? Who benefits? Privatization is no guarantee of competition. (Have you looked at your cable bill lately?) But it is a guarantee of increased profit centers that all have to fed with our education dollars. Privatization simply means that somebody gets to take profit out of those dollars… as a private business.

Just like medical care.. we pay more and get less.

And speaking of taxes… this war aside (and it is a huge concession when speaking of money to put the war aside)… if we cut the tax breaks to US corporations for sending their jobs oversees and the corporate handouts maybe some of our tax dollars could “trickle down” to pay for services…

The trickle down theory those tax cuts are based on doesn’t work and the American taxpayer sure isn’t seeing any benefit from those lost taxes.

Which brings us to that accountability thing. What makes you think that liberals aren’t accountable for themselves? Who do you think pays our bills for us? Who raises our children? Who runs our businesses? Surprise! we do. And who do you think it is that staffs all those volunteer organizations that provide services for those who are less well off than us? (And incidentally, some programs that benefit those better off than us…) It’s primarily those bleeding heart liberals who do that.

We are accountable for ourselves. And in addition, we choose to be accountable for those who are not as fortunate as well.

As for that million you expect to have… If your parents had money… If you were sent to the right schools and made the right connections… If you married into money or inherited it… if you get lucky and are at the right place with the right idea at the right time (i spoke with someone lately who told the millionaire story of having registered the right domain name at the right time) … maybe. but working hard to get there is no longer any guarantee.

And you would stand a lot better chance of getting there if you just got to keep a little more of your tax money because the rich and businesses paid a little more of theirs… and if things like health insurance and the cost of catastrophic events like “downturns” in the housing and stock markets, poor health and mother nature’s expensive quirks didn’t eat away at that nest egg you are building.

House… Insurance companies do deny health care. It’s a fact. nothing emotional about it. The less they pay for, the more they make. And most of America can’t afford private education for their children. They are amassing huge amounts of debt and raiding retirement to give their children the benefit of a college education at a public school. Fact of life for most Americans.. nothing emotional there either. I don’t’ know where you have been living that you don’t already know these things.

now, i admit, “looting the middle class” could be construed as emotional.. but when you shift an increasing burden of the costs for public programs onto the middle class and reward those who shift more of the cost of doing their business onto that same middle class.. that could be called looting. And when the public is expected to pick up the tab for profiteering and dishonest loans for lending institutions who simply passed the bad paper down the line to the next speculator.. while raking in profit.. that could be called looting.

And neither of those actions speaks of republican accountability. So i will stand by looting as an accurate term.

And by the way.. if you must label what i have to say as a rant (this is the second time you have done so).. then you must also be accountable enough to use the same label on yourself.

who is really pandering to emotions here?

[TheHouse]

If you were a business owner, you would not be a proponent of businesses paying more in taxes….once again, you want to punish those who are successful.

As for dishonesty, it is a non-partisan action. For every company that you show me that is dishonest, I can show you 100 individuals that defraud insurance companies, abuse the welfare system or use health benefits even though they’re in the country illeaglly. Don’t try to claim that all corporations are fraudulent.

If you feel that we have a mortality rate that is higher than most countries, then I suggest you move to Bosnia, Sudan or Mexico.

Like everything in the world, work evolves and hard work alone won’t necessarily get you far. Now you must work hard, but more importantly work smart.

By the way, a rant is an outburst with strong emotional statements (look it up in a dictionary). That’s what you wrote….A RANT. The paragraph I constructed was a “RESPONSE” because it contained nothing but facts, not emotional outbursts.

Now, if I call Liberals “Lazy, Government Loving, Welfare State Loving, Losers”….that’s a rant/truth. :)

I can’t wait to see what all of you Libs look like at the next Blog meeting.

[Anonymous]

House – unexpected things can happen to hard working, smart working, educated people. In a utopian society we would all be self reliant. I can agree that would be ideal. It is however, not a truth. On occasion, everyone needs help from a family member, friend, neighbor, even the big bad government. You stated “I’m always asking what I can do to better myself and my family”. That is a noble and responsible pursuit. I would counter with most liberals just want to take it a step further and ask what can I also do to help others and especially help others help themselves. And not in a handing out candy to lazy drug addicted, welfare losers way.

In my circle there is no one who wants to tax the hell out of you and have a government hand out free for all. I find that assumption generalizing and offensive. I am also just as tired of phony victims who want something for nothing. Can’t there be some sort of compromise though? There can be kids involved in circumstances not of their choosing. I don’t find Republicans to be evil, just stubborn. You have said you would NEVER vote for a Democrat. So if your preferred choice, Newt,ran as a Democrat you would disqualify him because of a label? I don’t understand such black and white thinking. There can be such a wide variance of views within each party, your position just doesn’t make sense to me.

I can not see a current situation where I would vote for one of the Republican candidates. I have however, in my voting history, voted for a Republican when that was the better choice. I feel that is the difference between you and I. I am willing to learn and re-evaluate my choices, where you come off sounding like you’d rather go down with the ship as opposed to accepting a government issued life boat.

[JanS]

My problem with much of this is…the labels.. Liberal….conservative. How about…human? Liberals are…losers. Conservatives are…smart, forward thinking. That’s bull, and we all know it, even you, House. I realize that you’re smarter, more hardworking, more educated than all of us on here put together because you have labelled yourself such. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, try to listen to you, to understand you…and I end up thinking…what kind of insensitive , uncaring, cold person is this? Of course, that’s just the feeling I get…you may be a wonderful person…but…when it comes down to it, you’re in it for you, and the rest be damned, it comes across as, at least to me.

And…you still have your dilemma…are you just gonna stay at home come election day in November? Or are you gonna pony up to the party and vote McCain, if he’s the candidate? You know the old saying…if you don’t vote, you can’t bitch if you don’t like how things go…

[Kayleigh]

Interesting how many conservatives believe things that aren’t true. Like, for example, that the emergency room is a health care option.

Have you made an appointment to see a dermatologist in an emergency room, House? How about an oncologist? A nutritionist? A physical therapist? A dentist? A mental health counselor?

My family has needed those medical specialists in the last couple of years, and thank goodness we had insurance to pay for (most) of it—and the money to pay for what insurance *didn’t* pay for.

Victim is a word the conservatives use when they deny the effects the world has on people they don’t like–or when they don’t see those forces (poverty, racism, drug abuse, child abuse, domestic violence, learning disabilities, mental illness, unemployment) as ever applying to *them.*

I’ve noticed, though, that some conservatives claim to be victims of the liberal media, affirmative action programs,taxes which are always too high, the “gay agenda”, the ACLU, and religious oppression (“the war on Christmas!”).

I’ll save my sympathy (and my taxes and my VOTE) for the people who are struggling to pay their bills, who work two jobs to feed their kids, who don’t have health insurance—who don’t see themselves as “victims” but who might just need a safety net or a helping hand. As I might someday.

[JoB]

house.. i don”t think i write in “emotion charged” rants… but i can see why you would react to them that way.

and as for what us libs look like.. we look just like you. thats the point.

There is nothing to separate liberals from conservatives on the street or in the way we manage our businesses or our lives… its a nice story.. but not true.

I am not for businesses paying more taxes in general house.. just for the elimination of tax breaks that give some businesses an edge over others… because not everyone gets those special tax handouts you know.

and i didn’t call businesses immoral or dishonest… i just cited one instance in which one industry was and which the tax payers (thats you house) would pick up the bill.

Repeating a lie doesn’t make it so.. not does name calling change concerned responsible citizens into leeches feeding off the govt trough.

I bet you’ll surprise yourself and find you like us house:)

[JoB]

House.. i stepped back a minute and soaked my head (took a hot bath and ashed my hair) because i sense this conversation is going nowhere fast. and i don’t know how to change it.

To you, pointing out that there are Americans who don’t have health care is playing on emotions while it is “fact” to say that “once again, you want to punish those who are successful.”

At what point did i say i wanted to punish anyone for success? I just want to level the playing field so that more people like you can actually achieve their dream of becoming millionaires.

But, obviously, that is not what you hear.

If you want to know what “fiscal conservatism” did for business in the United States during the much cited Reagan years, look up failure rates for small businesses during that period. And… lest you think otherwise, these were not women or minority owned businesses. They were not start ups. Long established single owner businesses failed in droves. It was because the playing field was not level at all. Some businesses.. .big businesses… were getting huge breaks and discriminatory legislation while small businesses ended up paying 20% on their loans and found themselves unable compete.

Contrary to popular myth, competition from small business doesn’t make a bigger business go out and innovate so they can compete, it makes them look for how they can crush the innovator so they can go on with business as usual.

I am all for success House.. and i wish you a ton of it. But i don’t think the fiscal policies of the republicans are going to get you there because they are slanted in favor of big business.. not the individual or small businesses.

It always surprises me when people who benefit the least from Republican policies defend them so strongly.

Citing fact is looking to what the policies do.. not repeating what they say. Outcome matters house. So, telling me i should go to “Bosnia, Sudan or Mexico” as tho those were comparably developed nations in response to a comment about the high mortality rate in the United states isn’t terribly effective.

I have lived through more than one round of people yelling “love it or leave it” simply because they didn’t like hearing the ugly truth. It is no less appealing this time.

Please stop characterizing my posts as rants. I do feel passionately about what has happened to my nation, but you don’t get to use that passion as an excuse to marginalize what i or others have to say.

Both parties are in favor of the American taxpayer investing in something. Republicans seem to think you and i should invest in the elite (by over-rewarding them for their success) and big business (by giving them preferential treatment, tax breaks and bailing them out when their greed gets the better of them.)… while democrats believe you should also invest in people because people are the last true natural resource in this country.

That’s not emotional house.. just a rational look at what those policies actually mean.

you don’t have to like what i have to say, but just denying it won’t make it different. Nor will calling me or other liberals names… or implying that we are somehow less responsible or accountable for our actions just because believe differently than you do or because we actually read opposing political views and find them troubling.

I commend you for your dreams. And i truly hope you achieve them. And i think you should focus on what will actually get you there…

[JoB]

kayleigh, i got so lost in house’s posts that i missed your gem until just now.

Very well said!

[Ken]

Anyone can visit a hospital to receive life threatening care (they cannot be denied by law) and anyone can go work for an employer that has health benefits….if your employer does not offer benefits, then work somewhere else.

Good work House,

I take it you’re a comedian by trade?

I am self employed and cannot get health insurance at any price. I sew my own cuts and use diet and exercise instead of the medications I have been prescribed in the past. Apparently you and George Bush think emergency rooms and Hospitals are free.

They are not. One visit could bankrupt any of the millions of people in this country who have no insurance. They already bankrupt millions who have insurance.

They don’t write off the bill, they sell it to collections agencies and lawyers who specialize in garnishments and judgments.

Nearly half of the personal bankruptcies in this country are triggered by medical bills.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/02/national/main671145.shtml

Those on welfare have a better chance of getting medical care they can afford than the average working stiff underemployed in this Bush service economy.

When I get a life-threatening illness I will die.

That’s the facts.

Also note this little gem. Companies are firing or not hiring otherwise qualified candidates because of tobacco use, cholesterol levels or blood glucose levels, to cut the cost of insurance rates. (note: Insurance companies and HMO’s now consider undiagnosed type II diabetes to be a “pre existing condition”.

http://businessshrink.biz/psychologyofbusiness/2007/09/

I am sure you will consider this an abhorrent intrusion onto the individuals rights, unless of course your a healthy, Republican non smoker.

[charlabob]

Thank you, Ken! You and JoB and others participating in this thread have save me the trouble of composing a snarky terse rant, involving mention of grammar and spelling and immunity to any kind of education. Oops…did I say that?

I appreciate the reasoned informative discourse here–minds of trolls are not likely to be changed, but you never know who might be lurking :-)

Ken, your description of your situation could be applied to so many of us — most of the time, “Self-Employed” includes “Uninsured.”

Does anyone (seriously) know how to set up a collective that could be defined as a group and get group rates on insurance?

And does everyone know that many medical providers now give up to 35 percent discounts to people who pay cash for dr. visits, etc–BECAUSE THAT’S THEIR COST OF BILLING AND OTHER OVERHEAD THROUGH INSURANCE COMPANIES. Swedish, for one, does.

I’m going back in my corner, before this discussion causes me to need blood pressure meds that I can’t afford. Peace!

c

[add]

My husband & I are both self-employed, and we got health insurance through the Alliance for Affordable Services – you have to join their association and then you are eligible to buy health insurance. They also offer other business/personal services. I think we pay about $5000/year for our family of four. The coverage pretty much stinks, but it’s better than nothing and is mostly there for any big catastrophic needs.

[charlabob]

Thanks, ADD — we’ll look into it. WSB is a such a great source of every kind of information — our own private Google.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone heard if Costco is ever going to expand Individual & Family Health Insurance beyond California.

[WSMom]

House:

I wondered if it were possible to have a reasonable discourse with you when you admitted that Stephen Colbert’s satirical platform best matched your beliefs/desires in a presidential candidate. I think Colbert’s idea of truthiness best describes everything you’ve written. How can JoB, using facts and reality, argue against your imaginary world where “if your employer does not offer benefits, then work somewhere else” is the answer to our nation’s health care problems. I think that if you really understood that Colbert’s satire is pointing out the fallacy (lunacy) of the “compassionate conservative Republican”, you would be too ashamed to boast that you agree with his positions.

[JoB]

charlabob.. i forgot you were reading… “involving mention of grammar and spelling and immunity to any kind of education.”

my hubby goes ballistic over my spelling (mostly typos), grammar and well… punctuation.

do i have to start paying attention here too:)

AARGH!

How’s a girl supposed to rant and pay attention too?

[WSMom]

“dilemma”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dilemma

[Author]

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