Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Where should the homeless stay?
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July 3, 2008 at 2:10 pm #587381
TheHouseMemberI decided to bring this topic over to the forums instead of comment on the main page.
First off, Matt did a nice job of follow up on the encampments and on the photojournalism.
Second, FullTilt asked in the comment section “Where do we want these people?” and also described his early years of living in cars an under bridges in L.A.
My answer to this is “I don’t want them anywhere”. I do not wish anyone into a position of not having a home. The fact of the matter is that there are three underlying reasons for becoming homeless…1) Choice (you are cognizant of your situation and do not have an issue with being homeless), 2) You have mental/medical conditions that impact your judgement in regards to living in society (you may/may not be cognizant of your situation and you may/may not have an issue with being homeless) or 3) You have been irresponsible (you are cognizant of your situation and you do have an issue with being homeless).
You of course could be homeless due to association if you are a child.
I started by saying that I do not wish homelessness on anyone, but #1 and #3 that I listed above are completely avoidable by the individual. If someone falls under #1 then it is choice of the individual, if they fall under #3 then they control/controlled their own destiny and need to pay the price associated with that.
#2 is the only one that a “moral” society should have require sustenance for since they are unable to sustain themselves.
So in answer to your question, even as a “conservative” I have no issue with providing government run facilities to shelter and care for group #2. As for group #1 or group #3, there are millions of square miles of Federal Land Management land, there are cars, mobile homes, etc for you to live on/in. In addition, if you fall under #3, there are federal/state programs in place to assist you short term (3 months is ample). Utilize those programs, but get out of your situation within 3 months.
July 3, 2008 at 2:14 pm #629942
changingtimesMemberhttp://www.insideedition.com/news.aspx?storyID=1729
i know, i know, yes i get bored sometimes and read inside edition….. :)
but anyways look, anyone could be homeless.
July 3, 2008 at 2:58 pm #629943
JimmyGMemberWell I know I don’t want them living in city parks where kids play and dogs run (apparently off leash based on some of the posters on WSB).
There are no easy answers to how to resolve the issue, but I’m totally against turning a blind eye to them camping in parks. I’m all for the clean-ups that have been done.
Matt’s photos on the WSB home page don’t due justice to the full sensory overload of an illegal homeless encampment. I’ve been to several of them over the years. Human waste and evidence of theft and illegal drug use aren’t uncommon.
July 3, 2008 at 3:42 pm #629944
BonnieParticipantMy older sister lives in a homeless camp and it is absolutely CHOICE. She blames everybody else for her lack of a job and how her kids ruined her life (kids live with grandma now so they are not with her in the homeless camp). She is an alcoholic and just won’t get a job. So, I have to wonder how many are like her? Just don’t want to work.
Of course, many of us are just one paycheck away from being homeless. Bad decisions or a loss of a job could put anybody into a bad situation.
Where should they be? I don’t know, but not in city parks. It’s not sanitary.
July 3, 2008 at 3:43 pm #629945
KayleighMemberWow, House. Did you write the King County Committee to End Homelessness with your thoughtful insights?
Maybe you could start a counseling service to help the homeless. You could explain to them that they have three months to apply for scarce government resources and almost nonexistent affordable housing, get a (scarce) living wage job, find nonexistent affordable child care, treat any illnesses (mental or otherwise, caused by or worsened by homelessness itself), kick any addictions (hard enough when you have a home)…
All while trying not to starve, dehydrate, die of exposure, be assaulted, raped, or murdered.
So glad you conservatives have all the answers.
July 3, 2008 at 4:22 pm #629946
charlabobParticipantKL, you summarized the situation very well. In a rare moment of fairness to “admitted conservatives” I have to add that the beginning of the “give the poor “n” months to get their acts together, without any supporting services” came from the BillClinton administration. He was not an “admitted” conservative, though he could have, and did, fool me.
In the 80’s we (yup, including me) decided it wasn’t fair to lock up the mentally ill. And sometimes it wasn’t. As usual, the conservatives took the idea and ran with it — the idea was that we’d provide services and a support network so they could be integrated in the community. The reality was we shut down the institutions and many of the half-way houses and then shut down the community support networks. Leaving many people mumbling on the streets.
July 3, 2008 at 4:43 pm #629947
RainyDay1235Membercharlabob – you are SO RIGHT. Mental illness cannot be underestimated. It is an epidemic. In the past three years I know someone who committed a violent crime due to mental illness, and a dear friend who lost her life to someone who was repeatedly released back into society. How we deal with mental illness in the US is embarrassing and a HUGE cause for alarm.
If people are simply homeless by choice, I admit I have little sympathy. If they were living “off the land” and not looking for a free ride, that would be one thing. But these are the same people who beg, borrow, and steal to support their unorthodox lifestyle – all within the society they supposedly reject.
Not to mention bite the hand that literally feeds them and leave their temporary homeless camps a complete mess. The SeattleTimes had a very eye-opening article about the volunteer clean-up effort after a local camp “disbanded” a few months ago. These camps are not the solution, and only encourage the renegade liftstyle.
As for the ‘hit hard times’ crowd – it can happen to anyone, and we should all have access to help every now and then. Seattle has MANY regulated job training programs, shelters, and other resources in place. I’ve volunteered at several. I also agree there should be a way to monitor who is coming, how often and what they have done to improve their situation.
The system is not perfect, but the resources ARE there for those who really want help – and it can work – as long as we focus on empowerment and self-reliance instead of handouts.
Was that too optimistic? ;)
July 3, 2008 at 4:58 pm #629948
soclwrkrinmotnMemberUnfortunately, we forget a population of the homeless community: the youth. Many of them make a “choice” because the streets are safer than home (or residential treatment) or they are “throw aways” who are tossed out of their home for various reasons (oft times for being LGBTQ). There are not enough resources for these kids. (and there aren’t for the adults, either. I know this, because I work with them.)
July 3, 2008 at 10:26 pm #629949
AnonymousInactivesocl – You bring up a very good point.
The youth are probably the most devastating group of homeless and often times, as you stated, they are in that situation only because it is the better option.
What you do for a living cannot be easy. Seeing heartbreak everyday, I’m sure, is extremely trying.
Thank you, on behalf of someone who doesn’t work in that industry, for making our world a better place.
July 3, 2008 at 10:57 pm #629950
JiggersMemberHow do you know that all homeless are drug abusers or have a mental illness? It’s easy to stereotype anyone who lives on the streets in that fashion. The economy is taking its toll and there are going to be soon of many homeless people who do work and have no substance or mental issues but just can’t afford to pay rent anymore. Making $11.50 an hour or so in Seattle won’t cut it. S o how do you help those people to survive? Don’t be alarmed when you see more people homeless because of a horrible economy And not just mental or drug issues.
July 3, 2008 at 11:42 pm #629951
JoBParticipantduring the depression, there was an acknowledged difference between tramps and bums…
bums didn’t want to work and preferred spending any cash they were given or earned on alcohol.. just like what we tend to characterize as the homeless today.
however, tramps rode the rails to get themselves closer to any kind of work that was available… they did want to work.. and were more likely to spend any money earned or given to them on food.. or send it to their families.
Every day i see people hanging out in front of places where you find day laborers… and i would bet that many of those people are homeless… they are barely making enough picking up work here and there to survive…
it is all well and good to blame all of the homeless for their situation just because there are some who choose homelessness and alcohol or drug fueled oblivion… just as it is easy to blame the poor for not working…
but.. a recent study published in our local paper pointed out that the kids who most need a summer job for survival are least likely to be hired…
and those working in entry level jobs need more than one job to afford housing, food and transportation in our current economy.
Opportunity is not equal in our society… not if you are poor or old or have medical problems… including but not limited to mental illness…
and there are not enough services to go around.
I believe we need another WPA type program.. the one that built much of the infastructure that is now falling apart. We need the work done, they need the work…
it’s a no-brainer to me.
sure beats paying for war.
July 4, 2008 at 8:22 am #629952
FullTiltParticipant“if they fall under #3 then they control/controlled their own destiny and need to pay the price associated with that.”
This Ayn Rand logic of every man for himself is amazing. It is the same logic of people that vote down school levees because they don’t have kids, or gripe about paying for buses because they drive cars. Welfare to corporations is just fine though. Look up how much taxes the Boeing Corp paid tot he state last year. I wish I could get that kind of break.
If you like seeing homeless people in your parks and junkies on your corners, keep up with that train of thought.
July 4, 2008 at 8:33 am #629953
JiggersMemberI love Ayn Rand. One of her very first books I read was Atlas Shrugs, then went on to The Fountainhead. Her scientific thinkings are amazing.
July 4, 2008 at 8:40 am #629954
FullTiltParticipantEven aside from her philosophy of objectivism, I just find her style of writing way to heavy handed and dramatic. It is like Plato staring in a bad romance novel.
July 4, 2008 at 9:03 am #629955
JiggersMemberOk.. back to the topic, the city needs to do a better job of housing homeless people regardless. One day you’ll be there unwantingly. I’d rather pay taxes for shelters than a new arena for basketball.
July 4, 2008 at 9:33 am #629956
JanSParticipantjiggers…I’m with you on that…I take it you won’t miss the Sonics either? :)
July 4, 2008 at 2:13 pm #629957
MikeDadyMemberFor the last three years or so I have been observing two individuals who have a habit of camping in parks such as Camp Long or on other public land. In the winter months they usually set up in vacant houses. There are plenty of others in their circle who do the same but I don’t see them frequently enough to know their habits and patterns. These specific two prefer and like this kind of life and refer to themselves as ‘hippies’ of sorts. (Wasn’t quite what I thought the hippie thing was about but what the heck.) One means for them of obtaining money is scrapping steel and copper that they manage to get their hands on, most times via tearing out the wiring of the vacant houses they invade. These two are both in their late 30’s or early 40’s, but it is hard to tell due to the life they lead. One came from a family who had a history of employment and work. The background of the other, a female, I am not sure of. Both grew up in West Seattle. They each have criminal records including drug dealing, prostitution, theft and assault. Meth fuels the males life, big time. She has been pregnant several times, but I do not know if she has given birth. These two and the crowd they run with cause trouble wherever they go. It is not pretty to observe. Recently I spotted them on 35th Avenue near Morgan where they all were towing suitcases and looking really cooked up on meth or who knows what. There was a new member of their group who looked as if she had not to long ago had her life together and frankly, looking through her now disheveled appearance could have been a fashion model in the not to distant past. Meth or some other drug had got a hold of her. I have scratched my head and spoken with service providers and others about how society should deal with with people like this. Some people I know who themselves have had past drug troubles have told me flat out that these people have made a choice, and that they need to realize that or endure the consequences. What those consequences should be and how they are paid for I don’t know. No easy answers to this mess, but having people such as this roaming around, camping in the parks and woods or in vacant houses is not working.
July 4, 2008 at 3:54 pm #629958
JoBParticipantMikedady..
i couldn’t agree with you more.. having people like that roaming our streets and victimizing our homes is not working.. but we have a justice system that is set up to give them the opportunity to rethink their choices…
better in house drug treatment programs with more halfway housing combined with education programs would give those who need it the opportunity to make better choices… and those are in short supply..
some will always choose the oblivion of booze or drugs and will commit crimes to finance their lifestyle.
if they only knew how much easier it is to work:)
those are not the only homeless… just the most visible. The mom who is living in her car with her kids visits goodwill and clothes them decently.. she cleans them in public restrooms… and she hides at night so that she and her children won’t become the victim of violence from the people you notice.
But she and her children are still homeless… and without an address are unlikely to be receiving much in the way of public assistance.
The person who becomes injured or ill and runs through their assets trying to get better.. loses their job because they can’t work… waits months and years for a disability hearing that might.. or might not since they are no longer under a doctor’s care…. grant them a limited income.. and then waits months or years for a spot on the subsidized housing list… is also often homeless…
There are those who seek the oblivion of alcohol or drugs to self medicate unrelenting physical pain… and eventually end up depressed and mentally ill as a result of their alcohol or drug use…
There are those who are mentally ill and are no longer cared for under our current medical system… who are left to take their medications.. if they have them… without supervision and to spend their lives without direction…
Those are just a few of the many ways people become homeless in our society…. i didn’t mention the children that are simply thrown away… or the adults who encounter trouble without a family to support them.. or…
drug and alcohol addiction are a major problem in our society.. but they are not the only problem fueling homelessness…
they are just the excuse we use to avoid compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves.
July 4, 2008 at 9:34 pm #629959
TheHouseMemberFullTilt, I had no idea who Ayn Rand was until you mentioned her, so my statement might have fallen in line with her thoughts but I certainly didn’t quote her.
Someone else posted somewhere on here that debating these type of things is like banging two bricks together.
That’s the most prophetic statement I’ve ever seen on this website. I sit in my chair amazed that many of you truly believe that other peoples lack of responsibility or lack of control should be everyones problem.
Oh, and Jiggers, dude I think you’re awesome on here but I will never allow my family to be homeless. Once again, if you believe that you might be homeless I can guarantee you will.
July 4, 2008 at 9:52 pm #629960
JiggersMemberJust a tid bit that the rock band Rush did a concept album way back titled “2112” which was based loosely on Ayn Rand’s book Anthem”. Rush is one of my top five favori all time bands.
2112 by Rush and Anthem by Ayn Rand
More of a short story than a book, Anthem by Ayn Rand is the story of a dystopian future similar to George Orwell’s 1984 or George Lucas’s first film, THX-1138. Anthem is also the inspiration for the song “2112″ by Rush.
If you are familiar with the song “2112″ by Rush, then you know the basic story of Anthem. If you are not familiar with “2112″ then you should go and listen to it. What could be better than a song with a science fiction plot about freedom, individuality, and the beauty of music set to 20 minutes of rockin’ guitars? Anthem is 2112 without the music, guitars, and heavy science fiction. Ayn Rand’s story is about the socio-political aspects of life in a future where technology and individuality are banned, and the story of one man who discovers both technology and individuality.
I believe I enjoyed Anthem more having already been exposed to the basic ideas of it from listening to “2112.†Alternatively, that means that I think I would not have enjoyed Anthem as much had I never listened to “2112.†And I also believe that words set to music can express things much more effectively than words alone, as the words in “2112″ state:
“Listen to my music
And hear what it can do
There’s something here as strong as life
I know that it will reach youâ€
Those words have a greater impact when you are listening to the music and hearing what it can do.
O NOW WE CAN GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC…LOL
July 5, 2008 at 12:01 am #629961
FullTiltParticipantHouse, I didn’t mean to say you are quoting AR, I just meant it was her philosophy.
Like it or not, it is your problem. It is everyones problem. With out social services, you will see an increase in crime, drug use, and park camping. I would rather pay for shelters then therapy for my child that gets attacked in a park. It is the same reason you pay for a fire department even if your house is not on fire.
On top of that I do not want to live in a world that ignores its weaker neighbors, you might, but I don’t.
Republicans seem to have deep pockets when corporations need a hand out, but families can sleep in the gutter for all they care. How does that make sense?
July 5, 2008 at 12:35 am #629962
JoBParticipantTheHouse..
“I sit in my chair amazed that many of you truly believe that other peoples lack of responsibility or lack of control should be everyones problem.”
Whatever makes you believe that we think that anyone else’s lack of responsibility or control should be our problem?
Have you somehow missed the growing conversation here about responsibility and pets?
And that’s not the only thread that emphasizes the need for personal responsibility…
we just don’t make the convenient assumption that all of the homeless are there only because of a lack of repsponsibility…
And don’t say never about being homeless with your family House. I didn’t think it could happen to me and yet i spent part of a summer homeless with my two children…
July 5, 2008 at 12:45 am #629963July 5, 2008 at 2:14 am #629964
soclwrkrinmotnMemberHouse, I cannot even begin to say what I think. I will say this, many people are a paycheck away from being homeless, and a preponderance of them are women and children. You tell me why that is, please.
Maybe you say that you will never be homeless, to that, I say “never say never.”
FullTilt: for that comment about Ayn Rand, I buy you a beer…as well as your other comments.
July 5, 2008 at 3:29 am #629965
charlabobParticipantFullTilt, the charla and bob also want to buy you a beer (you may need to hire someone to fill in for you tomorrow; after our get together and all the beers we owe you.)
Despite my childhood flirtation with conservatism, I’m happy to say I never went through an Ayn Rand phase. I did have some taste in wretched writing.
This should be emblazoned on everyone’s soul:
“On top of that I do not want to live in a world that ignores its weaker neighbors, you might, but I don’t.”
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