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November 12, 2016 at 8:23 am #864584
JoBParticipantI admit this election has set me back. I am appalled by the meanness this election represents.
This nation didn’t elect a leader.. they shunned a woman whose only crime was to make politics and service to her nation her lifetime pursuit.
That so many would think that putting a man in office who doesn’t even make a pretense at moral integrity simply to deny the White House to “her” almost completely destroys my faith in my fellow man.
Soon to be sitting in the White House is a man with 75 lawsuits pending.. one for major fraud and another for the rape of a child. He will begin his term with more real scandal sitting on his head than the entirety of created scandals that have plagued Hillary’s career.
We have had some real scoundrels in the White House in my lifetime but this is the first time that i can remember that impeachment has been discussed by the political party he represents as a real possibility for a President Elect who has not yet even taken office.
He was elected on the basis of lies.. those he told to get elected and those told about her to keep her from being elected.. including but certainly not limited to the last minute lies told by the director of the FBI…lies that are now routinely accepted as some version of truth.
And all because “she” dared early in her career to not be the little woman.
I am ashamed for us.. not just for those who have chosen to listen only to Trump’s siren song… a song that will fill our White House with reality tv players who not only haven’t a clue how to deal on the world stage but are too arrogant to take the kind of coaching that it will take to prevent a side show at best and a world war at worst… but for those on the left side of the aisle who thought their personal choice of a candidate was more important than their ideals… or than the people who those ideals were supposed to protect.
this wasn’t an election.. it wasn’t even a dogfight… it was a mean girls reality show let loose on a national stage with no winners.
There will be losers though… the most vulnerable among us.. because that’s what mean girls do.. they pick the most vulnerable target in the room… and we have a nation full of targets.
there are the elderly to fleece of what little security they have left.. especially elderly women who at best start with 1/3 less than their male counterparts. There are the disabled.. heaven forbid we should allow them a life with any dignity.
Those in charge are already talking about privatizing medicare so that medical care in these United States not only becomes prohibitively expensive but falls to third world standards..
if privatization was the answer we would already have the best medical care in the world.. if the most expensive.. but mortality stats clearly show that we don’t.
The same people who dipped American fingers into the social security trust fund to pay for their tax cuts to the wealthy while waging war want to renegotiate America’s debt to the social security trust fund…. ultimately abandoning it as too large a liability… to pay for more tax cuts for the wealthy..
We the people are the business Trump wants to bankrupt as though there are no casualties in bankruptcy… and we are told “you just don’t understand business”…
There are our children. Privatizing our education system has been in the crosshairs of the same people for some time… there is money to be made there off the public purse. Never mind that the privatization of our once great public universities has been a dismal failure. Those foreign students who once flocked here for the best education in the world.. and paid through the nose for it.. are now choosing elsewhere… with good reason.
Never mind that the majority of our public charter schools fail their students and fleece their local communities. there is money to be made and we are trusting the future of our children to the same people whose greed nearly toppled our economy… because “they” know best?
We are no longer the best educational or medical option in the world … and worse.. we are no longer the only option.. at this point.. in this world economy.. excellence does matter.
When it comes to public institutions… privatization leads to higher costs for the public with less return.. .yet “we” are about to turn all of our public institutions.. our medical care.. our educational system.. our power.. our water.. our roads.. our police forces.. over to private entities whose main concern is their profit margin.
What has this nation done? “Who let the dogs out?” is not exactly a theme song we can be proud of.. but that’s the one that has resounded in my head this week.
Does the reality tv show Mean Girls have a better theme song? I don’t know. It’s not my idea of entertainment.
And then there is the elephant in the room.. the pack mentality that seeks to destroy anything that is different or better than them… the minority who think that might makes right and they will destroy their own world if they have to … to spite “them”…
Being a bright and capable female.. I have been a target of that pack in one way or another my entire life… and i am not looking forward to a resurgence of acceptance of those who prey on anyone they think might somehow threaten them … including children.
this is not the America I have invested my life in.. nor is it the one I want to live in.
When i was a young woman and some bully would shout at me “America.. love it or leave it” I would smile because i knew the only saving grace for us all was “America.. love it enough to change it”…
After a lifetime of investing in the saving grace I am finally contemplating leaving my country…
this notion that what people “feel” is more important than truth has taken such a hold that any lie can be told as long at it “resonates” and is staunchly defended as truth… “they” .. whoever is so bold as to present facts.. are manipulating numbers or trying to frighten us.. or simply they lie because i can find someone who repeats what i think is true… so there…
i was taught better reasoning skills in grade school than the majority of this nation’s high school graduates seem to possess… has reasoning gone the way of civics in our schools?… i have to conclude that it has.
I don’t know that i will actually leave America.
With the bully of the world in bully mode it’s clear to me that there is no safe place in this world to tuck myself away… those pina coladas at sunset really are a fantasy…
but i no longer feel compelled to stay here and invest what is left of my life in this country… in these people… and that is a huge change for me.
I feel let down by my own.. by those who said they walked beside me and had my back but whose focus on their way being the only right way literally left those who depended upon them in the lurch.. and that’s difficult to recover from. That too many of them were women who should have known better because of what they have experienced is worse.
I understand that many of those who couldn’t bring themselves to invest in this election saw it as a done deal.. they expected “us” to carry it for them .. they didn’t expect to suffer any real consequences from their actions .. in fact they expected to use the wounds they inflicted to further their own agenda…
but all i can see is that they gambled with our lives and they lost the most important battle of my lifetime.
Will people recover their senses? I don’t know. They will certainly be disillusioned.. and more angry than they are now.. but will that bring back common sense or just another round of throw the bums out? I don’t know.
the kids.. the millennials who it turns out did turn out to vote and voted for Hillary.. give me hope.
I am hearing a lot about resistance and that’s a good thing. But they are no more inclined to counsel than we were at their age.. and that’s a bad thing. They have to reinvent the wheel and then push it over the mountain of debri that is left in the wake of this election.
I have personal experience with that process and that experience tells me the road ahead is a whole lot longer and a whole lot harder than they imagine…. will they stay the course? Some will… and with any luck they won’t find themselves a lifetime later facing the same discouragement i now feel.. but i am thinking that road is now even harder than it has been for us.
I have friends who have regrouped for the fight … but i have always been far more interested in outcome than in the fight and even thinking about that right now is too daunting.
I gave myself a week of plain speaking.. permission to say exactly what i thought whenever and wherever i felt inclined to say it. I figure a lifetime’s investment has earned me that. But i think i am done now…
It’s not that nobody is listening. I can feel the breeze from wise old heads nodding in agreement as i type… but for the most part anything said.. even when what will eventually be said is “I told you so” … will be discounted by those who most need to hear it … as sour grapes.. as us not getting what we wanted as though getting what you want is the only goal.
and i think that is what makes me saddest. Not that it will be said that we whined because we didn’t get what we wanted.. but that getting what you want.. regardless of the consequences to others… even if it isn’t what you need.. now seems to be the national norm.
Some of you .. even those who were there.. perceive the 60s as nothing more than sex, drugs and rock and roll.. and miss the idealism that sparked a movement that almost.. for a brief minute.. worked.
that spark died for me on Tuesday as i watched the returns…
this election wasn’t about a political winner take all.. it was a referendum on how our nation sees itself .. a referendum that was decided by people who didn’t think it was important enough to speak up… or worse yet.. who chose not to speak up.. who let those whose misdirected anger drive them to the polls make their decisions for them…
somehow.. oh well.. life will go on.. just doesn’t cut it for me. et.. we have seen the world on the left tumble over itself to find anyone to blame but themselves. “she” did it…
No… we did… we failed…. and those who worked hardest for to prevent failure will likely pay the highest consequences.
the neverending line of people who just desperately need help just got longer…
perhaps that is reason enough to stay.. i don’t know. i just don’t know.November 12, 2016 at 8:45 am #864587
miwsParticipantNovember 12, 2016 at 9:38 am #864597
waynsterParticipanta little post election humor always helps…… and miws like your answers on question of the day on komo news at 4
November 12, 2016 at 10:56 am #864610
JTBParticipantI entirely appreciate your distress and dismay at the process and outcome of this election, particularly the dire consequences that will likely disrupt life for millions here and around the globe.
I do believe it’s clear exactly who bears the lion’s share of the responsibility for this outcome—the Democratic party. At a time when the demand for change and massive distrust of the political establishment were screamingly obvious, the Democratic political establishment exerted its influence and, quite naturally, sided with the status quo. Everything beyond that gets down to Hillary’s limitations as a political strategist and executive. There are many examples of how that played out during the campaign but it serves no purpose now to dwell on it or debate it. At her best, she wasn’t what people wanted and she wasn’t able to make Trump’s frightening aspects obscure his change message enough to scare the voters away. That’s mostly a testimony of how extremely fed up people are with the political establishment. [FWIW, I worked actively to support Hillary after she won the nomination.]
I’m not saying with any certainty that I think Bernie could have defeated Trump but the campaign certainly would have been different and certainly would have focused more on the substantive issues about the problems with this economy and real solutions for dealing with them. In that contest, Bernie rather than Trump would have been the credible change candidate. The Clinton/Trump contest did virtually nothing to shine a light on those systemic problems.
So this has turned out to be a completely lost opportunity for those who want to change the system in a progressive direction or even hold on to what little it provides. As Bernie said, it will take a mass movement to really change the political system in this country. I don’t see the foundation for that anywhere.
The GOP now has the time to consolidate its hold on the entire political, legislative and judicial branches of government. This was laid out in detail by Lewis Powell in his 1971 Memorandum which was intended to provide a blueprint for conservatives to dominating business, mass communications and politics to their point of view. They have succeeded and now only have to be concerned about keeping Donald somewhat contained. But they can roll with a major recession or even a depression. Just the normal cycles of capitalism.
As an end note, I’m temped to say this sorry state of affairs is the result of having such a politically backward population. But I think even that doesn’t account for why people have accepted such steady chipping away at their standard of living and security. Even in OECD countries with a rich history of political engagement across the spectrum, the same deterioration and accommodation has set in. I think it’s because we have reached a point where this socio-economic system can no long grow sufficiently to provide well for the majority of people. So until we figure out a different way of doing it, we’re destined for continuing decay.
November 12, 2016 at 1:17 pm #864638
JoBParticipantJTB
a campaign which did not have at it’s heart equality for all was doomed to fail the voters for whom that was the most important issue of this campaign…
there is a reason that Hillary polled better than Bernie with women and most minorities .. and that she won the primary in most states that had ballots.. not caucuses.
blaming the victim of persecution for that persecution is not only unfair.. it’s unfounded.
November 12, 2016 at 4:20 pm #864649
JTBParticipantJoB, I’m not blaming the victim for her persecution; I’m saying two basic things: first, Hillary wasn’t the sort of candidate the electorate wanted in sufficient numbers and two, she failed to respond strategically to some obvious messages from the primary which sealed the deal for Trump. Specifically, she lost to Bernie in several states where independents voted in the primaries like WI, MI, and IN. That was a red flag indicating trouble ahead and it’s clear the campaign didn’t adequately adjust in WI and MI.
Until the Democratic Party figures out how to gain appeal through something more than identity politics and a vestigial labor movement, it’s doomed to have tepid support from white working class men and women.
It’s telling that millions of people were prepared to set aside the alarming aspects of Trump as a candidate and vote for him anyway as a disrupter of the status quo. I don’t think they’ll like what’s going to happen.
November 12, 2016 at 5:18 pm #864661
JoBParticipantJTB
i have heard all of the conventional wisdom and rationalizations from people who did not prioritize equality for all in this election…
but the exit polls don’t exactly back those assumptions up.
“She won women 18 to 29 years old 63 percent to 31 percent; support was more evenly split among men in the same age group, 46 percent for Clinton to 42 percent for Trump.”
in spite of this article’s focus on women..
there is no demographic except that of young men in which Hillary won the majority of the male vote.. unless it pops up somewhere in the hispanic of black vote.. i couldn’t find an article which gave a more complete breakdown of blacks and latinos or asians according to sex.but this link does provide more detailed information
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/exit-polls/
young voters are far more likely to be independents than older voters.. which challenges the twin assumption.. she didn’t pull the millennials and she didn’t pull the independents…
i couldn’t find detailed gender information on those who identified as independents either but i am guessing it is consistent with other demographics..
On top of that.. if you look at exit polls and then at election results you will find that the only states in which they match up are those with a verifiable paper trail connected to each individual voter… those states with mail in ballots.
i am pretty sure those are also the states with the highest participation numbers…
this wasn’t a problem of Hillary not connecting with the voters…
it’s clear she connected with those voters who prioritized equality for all because they were part of a class of voters that is treated unequally..
it is also clear that she connected well with educated voters.. the exception being educated male voters…it is clear that pre-election voter suppression affected the vote outcome significantly in Trump’s favor… as well as the limited number of polling places and long lines in urban voting stations and easy accessibility in rural.
the only way we could have won this election is if men who had a lessor stake in equality had jointed the fight.
it’s clear they either stayed home.. voted independent or voted Trump.
Now. you can spin that any way you want to.. I have been watching the spin doctors with a heavy heart for the past week.. but the numbers don’t lie…
the story they tell is not a pretty one.
as for what will happen in the future… as long as Republicans have control of our voting systems.. we will have an uphill battle..
- This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by JoB.
November 12, 2016 at 7:12 pm #864672
JanSParticipantoh, hell, they have control of everything…to me, that’s effing scary. Some are saying that Trump will be impeached forthwith so they can have Pence as president. That’s just as scary. But I do not think that will happen. Ryan and McConnell et al want to keep him, to manipulate a novice with their evil ways…they won’t impeach him. Another scary…Lindsey Graham suggesting Ted Cruz for SCOTUS. Yes, they now own the whole shebang for a long time. Voter suppression WILL get worse, and women will lose whatever we have fought for for years. Frankly, as an almost 70 year old with health issues, I do not expect to live til a time they don’t have a stranglehold. In my heart I want to see Dems come together and set Congress back in the mid-terms…but that won’t happen if we continue to fight among ourselves. The in control RW Repubs are divide and conquer…and it’s working. :(
November 12, 2016 at 8:09 pm #864673
JoBParticipanti did a little more digging..
CNNs exit polls are more detailed than the vote analysis i was able to findNovember 12, 2016 at 8:46 pm #864674
JKBParticipantCouple of interesting bits in the CNN data: polarization, and income/education disconnect.
The first has been talked to death, but I found it striking how consistently it played through all the issues. We have the Blue People and the Red People.
The other was curious: Trump wins lower-educated people, but Hillary wins lower-income. Damn, that college degree was supposed to be worth something.
November 12, 2016 at 10:54 pm #864688
JeannieParticipantThank you for your eloquent words, JoB. You expressed so well the despair so many of us feel.
November 12, 2016 at 11:03 pm #864690
JKBParticipantJoB, you levy some fairly serious charges. Voter suppression for instance – where do you get that?
November 13, 2016 at 8:00 am #864706
JoBParticipantJKB..
closed polling places in urban areas creating hours long lines to vote
voter ID laws which required not only voter IDs but exact matches between voting rolls and name and address on the ID
voting registrations purged because names were similar to those of felons
the list goes on…that’s voter suppression and lest you deny it happened you might want to know that elected Republican officials have boasted engineering voter suppression for the purpose of driving down the democratic vote …
November 13, 2016 at 8:13 am #864712
JoBParticipantWhat i find most disheartening is that people of color, the descendants of non-white immigrants, gays, women and a host of other people who don’t look like “patriots” think they should are being harassed on our streets by people who think they have a perfect right to “put them in their place”… mostly verbally but sometimes what they say and do really crosses the line into aggressive physical behavior…
and we are dissecting this election as though it was any other…
just another after game breakdown of the strategies without any attention at all to the outcome.I honestly don’t know any more if this is the outcome most of those who voted Trump or withdrew their vote for reasons of conscience intended.. but it is certainly the outcome… and denying it like some deny sexism, racism and homophobia doesn’t change the fact that more than half of this country’s population no longer feels safe on the street in their own neighborhood.
I know it’s easy to dismiss this as a few “nut jobs” and think it doesn’t matter… but i have to ask.. at what point do the number of “nut jobs” … the number of people who think it’s their right to verbally or physically accost anyone they think needs to be chastised in any way become large enough to ask yourself if the “nut jobs” have taken over?
is it when they have organized themselves? they have.
is it when they are prosecuted for their actions and walk away exonerated? that has happened too.or is it when someone you care about .. or you . becomes the target?
November 13, 2016 at 9:10 am #864716
JayDeeParticipant@ JKB
Voter suppression is a real thing, especially in the South and Texas. Voter fraud, however, is another figment of the Republican mainstream and He Who Shall Not Be Named. Voter fraud always has been and always will be a ghost because it serves the purpose of disenfranchising the minorities who vote Democratic. BTW, since this election was rigged according to HWSNBN, where are his complaints now? Haven’t heard boo about this lie since Tuesday for some reason.
November 13, 2016 at 9:34 am #864719
SunuvaParticipantJayDee, of course it was only rigged if he lost! What a wonderful thing to teach our children. When you lose, find a scapegoat, claim the game was rigged against you, and then go as far as to not even admit you lost. It is shameful and since we know this his M.O. we can expect these shameful behaviors every time something doesn’t go his way as President.
November 13, 2016 at 9:42 am #864720
SunuvaParticipantJoB, well said on all points. Just know that there are a whole lot of us who feel the same things along with you. It might not seem like it right now because the winners are everywhere boasting loudly and emboldened by their win. I do believe this will light the fire on our side to no longer be complacent, bolster our defenses, and pick up the fight for our future. Despair is to be expected, but we are not going to let that get the best of us. We are not going to give up.
November 13, 2016 at 11:52 am #864729
JTBParticipantTwo points:
First, the Clinton campaign makes a good case for how much the Comey letters affected the late-deciding voters, particularly in the swing states and even with college educated whites. I guess he finally got even with Bill for the Mark Rich pardon.There were more voters who said the economy was their priority than numbers of voters who said the ability to make change was the most important quality in a candidate. However, Trump’s total with the change group erased Hillary’s advantage with economy voters. That calls into question the conventional wisdom of “it’s the economy, stupid.”
Are many of Trump’s supporters so hungry for change they were willing to embrace someone seen as less qualified to handle the economy? If so, what change? I think that brings up the off-cited observation about white middle class voters feeling neglected and taken for granted by the political establishment and even looked down on by the cultural “elites.” Perhaps that accounts for the surprising embrace of Trump by evangelicals. I know the Alt Right people hope for disruption of the system so radical that it will open a path to totalitarian control.
I’ve been buying into the view that the discomfort and apprehension of white middle class voters is mostly about economic uncertainty. But perhaps it’s more than that. After all neither of the political parties have been willing to talk straight about what’s going on with the economy and why income has stalled or declined for many. Instead, they’ve diverted attention to other issues and the electorate has played along—big government, welfare, immigrants, moral decay, and whatever; anything but the systemic structure of the economy. So is it possible that a significant number of Trump supporters expect and hope for disruption of the current system, not reform and not just a better economy?
The Brits have observed that if the US steps back from its central roll in global trade and military alliances, it will usher in global instability, economic depressions and regional wars that won’t necessarily be far enough away from here to be unfelt. That’s disruption on a large scale. Maybe the GOP establishment will reign in Trump before things get out of hand, maybe not.
In any case, I do believe that wherever illiberal persecution and acts of violence pop up, we as individuals and as a society need to respond decisively to protest against it and do what can be done to put it down. I’m not ready for the streets yet. I think we need to allow things to take more shape with the transition team. But where there are local actions by hate-mongers in the near term, I’ll be happy to join in opposition.
November 13, 2016 at 12:52 pm #864739
redblackParticipanti’ll admit that i’ve lashed out in pretty much every direction this week. but i really don’t want others dems to misunderstand: of course i wanted clinton to defeat trump. i just don’t think she should have been the nominee. but she was, and you gotta dance with them what brung ya’.
and let’s not forget that even though 6 million of our fellow dems stayed home or defected, clinton won the popular vote by over 600,000.
so, two things to take away:
first: the electoral college system is crooked. it always has been. we need to pay close attention to redistricting in blue cities that are deep in red states.
second: you people had better show up at the mid-term and local elections. i’ve been a PCO, seen my neighbors’ voting records, and non-presidential election year voter turnouts are embarrassing. let’s start reversing the typical voting trends in our little liberal utopia.
keep pushing back against the ignorance, show up, and vote often. it’s all we can do.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by redblack.
November 13, 2016 at 1:02 pm #864746
JanSParticipantah, yes, that transition team…helping to choose cabinet members, etc. Here’s a start…Trump is considering Steve Bannon from Breitbart as Chief of Staff. Paul Ryan, who Bannon and Breitbart went after, trying to get him removed, because he didn’t fully support Trump, says he’s OK with that, that he doesn’t know the guy. Sarah Palin being bandied about to run the Dept. of Interior. Should I go on? Can anything good come out of this? Remember when we used to joke about things like that, being worst case scenario? Hah! Nightmares…and definitely not “living the dream”.
Dems need to get their crap together.
November 13, 2016 at 3:34 pm #864763
redblackParticipantyeah, jan, sarah palin makes james watt look like a hippie.
November 13, 2016 at 5:05 pm #864769
captainDaveParticipantredblack: You guys have really got to get over this nonsense and accept the results of the election. You also have to ask yourself a serious question: If high voter turnout always resulted in a democrat win in the past, what the hell happened this time with the highest voter turnout in history resulting in a republican sweep of the senate, house and 32 governorships? At what point do you think even more voters would have turned it around?There is a severe disconnection between your rhetoric and reality.
With regard to changing the rules: The election was not about wining the popular vote. It was about winning under the rules of the electoral college. If it was about popular vote, then the candidates would have run their campaigns differently. States do not have the same number of electors for the number of voters. Each is proportionally different. Candidates campaign in accordance to the electoral college delegates not number of voters. Changing the rules after the fact would be cheating Trump out of the ability to campaign for popular vote. What if Hillary won the electoral college and Trump won the popular vote? Liberals would not be so excited anymore about changing the system.
The purpose of the electoral collage is to prevent the democratic process from being overrun by mob rule–like what leftists are trying to do now by rioting in hopes of overturning the election.
Another thing to consider: There was an extreme media bias behind Hillary plus she spent nearly twice as much as Trump in her campaign. Do you think she would have more or less votes if Trump matched her campaign spending and the media coverage was unbiased?
BTW: They just called Michigan for Trump–306 electoral votes now makes it a landslide election with the probability that he also won the popular vote in the final national tally.
JanS: Dems need to get their crap together and start representing the electorate instead of their own special interests–Proof of which can clearly be seen in the national election results. Here is what “racist, white supremacist, nazi fascist, womanizing, hate mongering, war hawk, islamo-homo-phobic traitor to the leftist cause” Azealia Banks had to say about the Dems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdQB8rOQ69g
November 13, 2016 at 10:34 pm #864803
dhgParticipantIn the 2008 election, Obama won with 69+ million votes, McCain lost with 59+ million votes. This year, Trump won with 58+ million votes (and Hillary got a bit more).
What does this tell us? It says the voters stayed home who might’ve voted for Hillary. Why did they stay home? I’m guessing they were fans of Bernie or not a fan but not inspired by Hillary. She is not charismatic. She might’ve been a great president but she’s been a Republican punching bag for 30 years and that left its mark. To this day, people say Benghazi as if the word itself was the scandal. There was no scandal, the Republicans found nothing, but it still lingers around her like a bad smell.November 14, 2016 at 2:32 am #864814November 14, 2016 at 2:44 am #864815
JanSParticipantone thing that we may be able to agree on, Dave…I think the Dems have screwed themselves in this. There’s plenty of finger pointing, and blame going around, and , in my opinion , if we don’t stop sniping at each other, we will be where the Repubs have been for years, with the Teapartiers , etc.
What DOES bother me is who he has said he will have as his advisors…Prince Rebus is not a favorite of quite a few folks, but he can be dealt with perhaps. Steve Bannon is another story, IMO…I don’t see how anyone, including you, can actually accept what he stands for, and now in a power position. There are a lot of decent Repubs out there, but he had to choose one of the most radical.
Also read a good article today about the people that became supporters. There is now a whole faction saying that Trump had better be careful, and deliver exactly what he promised…getting rid of the ACA first (he’s hedging on that already, and not even sworn in yet), and then deporting 11 million, instead of now talking about 3 million, and they have to be criminals. Also, the Muslim thing…they’re griping that he better stick to the original plan, instead of now talking about extreme vetting. Word is, they have said that if he doesn’t do as promised they might rebel, hold his feet to the fire.. There is no compromise for them, but there may be for him, as he might not have a choice. I’m betting that when he crawls into bed at night, that “Damn, what have I done, this is harder than I thought” goes through his head a bit. Never having been in any type of government position, i.e., a “proby”, doesn’t help.
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