The 1% in the 99%

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  • #601708

    HMC Rich
    Participant

    Priceless. Roseanne Barr said the 1% should be subject to the Guillotine. Here are the Rich supporters of the Occupy movement. All I can say Rosie is that if you take out the 1% you lose most of the income tax revenue and the poor and middle class can’t make up the difference.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/paul-wilson/2011/12/28/99-percent-top-25-occupy-wall-street-backers-worth-over-4-billion

    Hmmmm.

    #743999

    redblack
    Participant

    meh.

    what income tax revenue? the top 1% spend more evading taxes, litigating against the IRS, lobbying, and trying to create loopholes than they would if they just paid what the government asks.

    crikey. they’ve created an entire industry from tax avoidance.

    #744000

    JoB
    Participant

    redblack…

    crikey!

    i think you have finally found the job creation in trickle down economics

    #744001

    kootchman
    Member

    Indeed,,now if we could just simplify the tax code so you don’t have to hire an army of tax accountants that would be great. Say…how about a flat tax? No? BTY..redblack the most tax litigation in this county is levied against those the IRs selectively picks for not having the resources for protracted litigation, but enough assets to protect… and force a settlement.

    Andrew W. Mellon

    “The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid”

    #744002

    Bostonman
    Member

    They actually pay exactly what the government asks. No fraud involved. What they do isn’t illegal. Don’t like it change the tax code but calling someone a tax avoider when they are following the law is stupid.

    #744003

    dawsonct
    Participant

    Flat tax? Screw that. I don’t use our courts or our common infrastructure anywhere NEAR as intensively as the hyper-wealthy and huge trans-national corporations do. If you use our commons more, you should pay more. Simple as THAT.

    BTW, if all the super-wealthy and the corporations they control disappear overnight, do you REALLY believe that no one steps in to fill the void? If Bill O’Rally’s taxes go up and he quits his job (boo-frickin’-hoo), will Murdoch just leave his on-air hours as dead air? Yeah…, no.

    You guys come across as fairly intelligent, when are you going to start thinking for yourselves instead of regurgitating the corporatist line you so eagerly lap up?

    #744004

    kootchman
    Member

    Oh? You pay as much fuel tax as FedEX, UPS, etc? I don’t think so. In fact your highway system is subsidized for you, by the transportation industry. Say… given that logic, all the light rail, public transit, etc…let’s put that on the users only too! Now we are talking Dawson. Ferry system? User fees only. Public Parks? User fees only… I got ya. Perfect solution. I will support that, you pay for the infrastructure you use. Use the courts.. pay.. ooops they do!! In civil courts you pay for court costs if ya lose. Sounds like some tort reform to me… I will go for it. No more subsidy to Metro… you use it..you pay for it. Bicycle paths and painted green boxes for cyclists.. you use it.. you pay for it. I like your thinking dawson. Everytime you drive down I-5 .. pull in and get weighed… and a road use tax too. Why the sour grapes against FOX? They kickin; your ass in ratings, followers, and FINALLY one challenge to a liberal media empire.. CBS ,NBC, NPR, ABC, NYTimes, etc. etc.. oh yea let’s not forget MSNBC. Hey you had your billionaires kick in for Air American… what happened? You seem pretty intelligent.. when will you start adding … practice some actuarial math… like deficit projections, debt expense, … y’ know reality. The big dog of corporatist, crony capitalism.. Obama. 7.1 trillion to banks to buy citizen backed US Treasuries, with citizen interest expense, and the banks are paying .5 per cent? Dude.. that’s your man.

    #744005

    kootchman
    Member

    Flat tax works… and everyone can evaluate is this the amount of government they want or need? Right now? The half of you that don’t pay taxes… you are marginalized because you don’t really participate. It’s like the NFL… the mob cheers for a game they don’t play in, train for, or have any effect on. The emperor loves it.. a thumbs up or down for crowed pleasing distraction… Both the gladiators and the emperor really are contemptuous. It shows. “As you Like it”…. either way.. curious though.. is that progressive system working for ya? Hang on to it then…there are always work arounds.

    #744006

    HMC Rich
    Participant

    Do as I say, not as I do.

    #744007

    redblack
    Participant

    kootch: “user fees only.” nice rant. actually, that’s what i call a brain fart.

    when you consume millions of gallons of fuel, you pay a lot more taxes. the question is, “do they pay the same rate as we do?”

    i’ll betcha fedex gets a discount.

    the shipping industry uses the highways, airways, and ferries. (rail is privately-owned.) they are heavier users of those public rights-of-way in terms of ponds-per-square-inch. therefore, they’re more destructive to things like highways and bridges. therefore, they should pay more in taxes than someone with a VW rabbit.

    and we have done the math, kootch. we’ve decided we want the rich and corporations to pay back what they borrowed – in my name, no less – from china for tax cuts and war. we’ve done the math and figured out that alan greenspan is an idiot, and that bernanke is no better.

    then there’s tax avoidance. you know, tax avoidance is a pretty simple concept. the root word, avoid, is built right in. let me know if you need further explanation. frankly, though, i can’t believe that any rational person justifies tax avoidance with the argument that, “well, it’s perfectly legal.” loopholes were not put there on purpose. that’s why they call them loopholes. they require attorneys and accountants to find and defend them from the IRS. they need to be closed.

    and yes, it is a legislative problem. but pretending that the top 1% do taxes just like the rest of us is stupid.

    and lastly we have the old “liberal media bias” saw. so given that “news” is a business run by corporations, and that corporations research their target demographics before going to air, what does perceived liberal bias tell you about the audience?

    it tells me that most of the audience is more liberal than you are, kootch. from where i sit, the news has a corporate, conservative bias and that most of the audience is more conservative than me.

    see how that works?

    half of the “stories” are paid advertisements. more telling is the fact that no one really reports news that makes big sponsors look bad. for example, have you noticed how much money the natural gas industry spends advertising to you through fox and nbc? and how many stories do you hear from those television news divisions about fracking? not too damned many.

    i suppose BP was the exception, but that one would have been difficult to bury.

    #744008

    kootchman
    Member

    They do pay more… ever drag a double axle 30 foot boat with a quad cab truck on the WA Ferry ? Yee gods man… it’s a mortgage payment.. The federal fuels tax dude… is paid by the refinery… no deals there. Hey there are job openings in PA for the natural gas field… union wages dude…they just spent over 4 billion and heck, production is just starting… guess you are waiting to get on at Solyndra or GM? Maybe a windmill installer? No siree everyone pays the fuels tax… unless ya siphon home heating oil out of the tank and put it in your truck without the motor fuels dye… then you can save about 80 cents per gallon..but who would do that? ( hint if you go natural gas, and take out the old oil furnace… LEAVE the tank in place!!!) then take the standard IRS mileage deductions in lieu of itemizing actual fuel expenses… Take a look at IRS form 2290. excise tax for vehicles over 55K lbs… yep.. a heavy vehicle excise tax…don’t forget those state weigh scales dude… they cost too… in point of fact those trucks keep your VW fees so low because they pay the bills.

    #744009

    redblack
    Participant

    lol. and there’s a good reason for every one of those higher fees or taxes.

    do you refuse to acknowledge that industry is harder on infrastructure than individuals?

    #744010

    kootchman
    Member

    nope.

    #744011

    kootchman
    Member

    However… how may POVs are there and how many semi rigs?

    #744012

    sydney
    Member

    HMCRich: Rosie was using hyperbole. She is known for being a comedian. Besides, I think she may have intended that remark for the top .1% or at least those so rich and powerful they’re pulling the puppet strings! I actually tend to agree with her sentiment! This is because while the top cats are making out like bandits, they are using a global stage and working Americans are therefore forced to share our wealth across seven billion people in a very inefficient and spotty manner.

    Markets are not models of efficiency.

    Kootch: I will never forget someone I met while in college. She was sweet and lonely, lived in a nursing home. She was a young girl or woman, I couldn’t tell her age. I couldn’t help her at all and felt so bad for her. She couldn’t pay one cent in taxes. She is not alone. She is part of that 50% who doesn’t pay any tax. Whenever someone complains about it, I think of her. You of course would have her just die. At least, that’s what I’m getting from all your flat tax rants.

    #744013

    kootchman
    Member

    sydney…. hyperbole… so in ten thousand years of human history, from despots, feudalism, monarchies, socialists. … you tell me one form of enterprise that has created more wealth, more efficiently, than market capitalism? You can’t. None have. Got a better model, anywhere in the world that creates more than us? No, you can’t

    Maybe you might want to actually read what a flat tax does. Steve Forbes is a good source. It’s not capitalism that is inefficient, it is very efficient. Look to your political institutions… they are the source of your discontent. What a bunch of bs rhetoric …. “you of course would let her die”…. READ something about flat tax… read how the poor would benefit. When you have a tax code 72,000 pages thick… ya got a history of congressional and administrative corruption. You ARE getting taxed more… it’s the creeping fees … oh,….actually, my lowest marginal tax rates were int he Clinton years…imagine that? I paid the most taxes during the Bush and Reagan years… where did all my costs of living go up? Sales and property taxes, license and permit fees, parking, etc etc etc… none of which the poor or lower middle class are exempted from. In thirty years.. the little nickles and dimes are what increase cost of living. Can’t wait to see what your list of more efficient creators of wealth are… this should be good.

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/congress/forbes_flat_tax.html

    #744014

    JoB
    Participant

    How did creating wealth become the gold standard in governance ?

    forgive me but wasn’t that standard the reason for our revolution ? for all revolutions?

    #744015

    kootchman
    Member

    The reason for our revolution was..property rights. And property includes the right to own, the means of production, factory, farm fishing boat, shop, studio.. etc…and the wealth created from it. Wealth creation raised the standard of living from about 38 years of expected life to 78 years. I believe the tinder box was a a people who fled Europe and the excesses of tax imposed by the English Parliament. That which governs least, governs best.. without wealth creation all the rest of the argument about governance is moot.

    #744016

    JanS
    Participant

    “Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion.

    Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.

    They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution.

    They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead.”

    ― Henry A. Wallace speaking of the “American Fascist”

    #744017

    sydney
    Member

    Jan– Great quotation!!

    American Fascism is on the march!

    I can’t get over some people’s refusal to see how supercorporations are not beneficial (see: “big picture”) and how the major media have become complete tools (see: “fair and balanced”).

    When pressed as to why he is so gung-ho to kiss corporate rings, K-Dude says he’s for big business because small businesses become big businesses when they grow up! This I will call “K-Dude’s Po-ke-mon Theorum of Economics”.

    Somehow aspiring to be another Wal-Mart doesn’t sound like a goal to encourage. Nor is it a likely outcome of a lifetime of hard work. Heck, even K-Dude never made it to the big time, and look how hard he worked his whole life!

    #744018

    sydney
    Member

    @Kootchman: I’m intrigued! Do go on!

    All kidding aside, please explain how a federal flat tax would eliminate all those local taxes you complain about.

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