Snatching defeat from whatever jaws we find…a rambling rant

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  • #586497

    charlabob
    Participant

    I’ve been listening to MSNBC’s election coverage for the past 3 hours and, as far as I can tell — here’s where we are:

    1. Hillary is going to stay in the race — running against Barack.

    2. Barack called McCain to congratulate him and look forward to the race in November. He’s now running against McCain.

    3. Hillary says she and McCain are ready to answer the red phone at 3 a.m. and Barack is not ready.

    4. McCain says only he is ready to answer the red phone.

    5. Barack says Hillary and McCain are the same person — antichangers.

    6. Everyone in the race seems to agree that McCain is a good man, just a bit confused.

    The last item is the one that scares me and here is where the rant begins: McCain jumps on whatever bandwagon seems to be ahead and as long as the press and the democrats feign awe, we will lose.

    He *did* confess under pressure from the Viet Cong when he was a prisoner — I can’t imagine who wouldn’t. But I can’t imagine how that makes him a hero.

    We all seem to have “imbibed of the McCain kool-aid(tm)” It’s a much more dangerous beverage than the Obama brand and it will defeat progressive values if we don’t go on the wagon.

    As far as I can tell, the Democrats have done their usual exemplary job of providing ammunition for the other side and it will be displayed prominently right-wing ads this fall.

    When I started this evening I was still in the “either of them is a star and either of them can win.” Now I’m just depressed. I do think the “Third Bush Term” idea has legs — so I’m sure we’ll abandon it at the first whimper of protest from the right.

    JoB — more jokes would be most welcome!

    #616559

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    charlabob – Not only as a Republican, but, also, as an American, I cannot let it go by without comment that you would question McCain being a hero. He was a prisoner of war! I know that you state that you can’t imagine being in that situation, but to fault McCain for anything he did in that situation is out of line. How dare you.

    As far as Republican’s taking it again… I’m not so convinced. I have said before that I do believe this year, there are Republicans that will vote Democrat. Don’t get too discouraged yet.

    #616560

    charlabob
    Participant

    Hi NR,

    I tend toward exaggeration, but my real belief is that anyone who goes to war and is “in harm’s way” (where *did* that come from?) is a hero.

    Frankly, if I had to rate the actual heroism of Senate POWs, Chuck Hegel would be far ahead of McCain in any heroism scale, because he continues to show amazing courage. And I wouldn’t vote for him either. McCain’s heroism seems to have piqued in the Hanoi Hilton.

    There may be more or less degrees of heroism, but in a political race, annointing one candidate as a “hero” (or a saint) puts everyone else at a disadvantage and that’s the reason to do it. (I have the same feeling about the untouchability of black or woman candidates — I can dislike and dis Hill or Barack and not be a sexist or a racist. The worst you can say is I’m wrong.

    I’m not at all surprised when Republicans refer to the heroic Senator McCain and practically nominated Reagan for sainthood. (a) Many of them probably believe it and (2) It’s in their enlightened self-interest that other people believe. But I don’t understand when Democrats go along.

    It’s up to the Democratic opponents to point out what McCain has done since 1974 and how much of our current economic disaster stems directly from Reagan’s work. In essence, McCain is the descendent of wrong-headed Republican ideas that started with Reagan and unless we’re willing to take on the heroism of McCain and the untouchability of Reagan, we’re doomed.

    As I said, I tend toward hyperbole and I am exceptionally daring and cheeky for an old broad, so “How dare you” is high praise. And, strangely, some of my best friends are Republicans — but none of my living relatives :-)

    #616561

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Very well put, charlabob. I agree with your assessment of the “untouchability” of particular candidates. However, being black or being a woman is on no scale, whatsoever, to being a prisoner of war. That doesn’t make him “better”, it is just a fact. I suspect that, because he is Republican, this is why you are so quick to discredit this fact. Or, not give it much merit.

    #616562

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Btw.. nothing wrong with a cheeky old broad!

    #616563

    charlabob
    Participant

    Actually, NR, I’ve been known to speak snarkily of candidates on my side whose only or main qualification is some notion of heroism — Tammy Duckworth was a helicopter pilot who lost both legs and ran for congress from Illinois in 2006. I’m sure she’s a fine person, and I’m also sure she’s a hero, but I’m sure that was no reason to elect her when she ran to the right against a powerful progressive candidate. They split the Democratic vote and a Republican won the district. (She’s now head of Veteran’s affairs in Illinois and doing a fantastic job — when we elect a Democratic president, I fervently hope she’ll be appointed the head of the VA. That’s a job directly related to her heroism.

    As an aside, my second hottest button is the meaning of words and I really fume when words like “hero” and “coward” are cheapened because every “X” is one. Every POW is not a hero. Every war protestor is not a coward. Some of each are.

    I do hope you’re right about the outcome in November, NR — I keep remembering the inevitabiliy of Hillary and Rudy (and even having discussions with my NY friends about whether that would be as bad as a Mets/Yankees World Series. The notion that whatever Democrat was nominated would just win seems to fall into the same dangerous category.

    If we win, I’ll buy you a beverage of your choice and vice versa; not the usual bet, but it works for me.

    the c half

    #616564

    JoB
    Participant

    Charlabob.. you are suffering from an overdose of CNN. Back away from the televison before you are sucked right into that black hole.

    it is too early for any democrat to be calling McCain…

    New Resident… I don’t discredit McCain because he is a republican… I once thought i admired him.

    My husband (who happens to come from Arizona) went postal on me when i said that i had once admired him and proceeded to give me an Arizona viewpoint on McCain politics.

    Then, my father-in-law.. who was mucky muck enough to be a republican delegate from the state of Arizona for two presidential elections followed up with a few choice words last week on how he felt about his party’s candidate. And he is no friend to the party’s religious right… so this wasn’t an uber conservative bashing. He saw McCain’s tactics from the inside.

    It’s what he has done since the Hanoi Hilton that we ought to be concerned with… not that he spent time there.

    I don’t remember John Kerry’s war record doing him much good in the last election… in fact… it was turned into a liability… and he was a hero. (Being shot down and surviving a prison camp is was not the only way to become a hero in vietnam.)

    besides.. that was a long time ago and McCain has been riding on the credits from that experience ever since.

    This is why i said that whoever gets the democratic nomination had best be prepared to play hardball… John McCain is a tough political opponent.. and it isn’t because he is a war hero… it’s because he is willing to do whatever it takes to get elected….

    #616565

    charlabob
    Participant

    msnbc, not cnn — other than that, you are right, JoB — what happened to the offer of chocolate? (Buttermilk just isn’t making it…)

    #616566

    JoB
    Participant

    i’ve been eating licorice and sesame-honey almonds… no chocolate in the house when i need it:(

    #616567

    JanS
    Participant

    daughter gave me some chocolate necco wafers for my BD today…sat and ate them going back and forth between CNN and MSNBC….when this is all decided on the dem side, I certainly hope neither dem candidate has given “election fodder” to Mr. McCain. He WILL pay attention, and dish accordingly after the convention has decided our candidate (or whatever does).Whoever we’re for now, we have to be ready to back that candidate no matter what, be it Hill (or as a friend calls her “Hillbilly”), or Barack. Neither needs to give Mr. McCain ammo…lest we get shot in our foot one more time…

    #616568

    JoB
    Participant

    Nobody needs to give McCain ammo… Believe me.. they already have plenty of ammo to use no matter who wins our nomination.

    but we need to remind ourselves that winning an election takes a lot more than showing up for rallies…

    There will be votes to get out and we will all have to campaign tirelessly… and that means being willing to listen to the other person’s ideas with respect before you volunteer your own.

    Nobody listens unless they feel they have been heard.

    it will mean volunteering to drive people to the polls.

    it will mean convincing a lot of people (roughly half the democrats) that even though their candidate didn’t win.. this election is about issues and the issues are important…not voting or throwing your vote to nader in some symbolic gesture has real consequences…

    we are just having fun now.. the real work doesn’t start until after the convention.

    #616569

    charlabob
    Participant

    So true!

    What really scares me (when I’m not watching MSNBC) is that we’re just bopping along here having primaries and caucuses because no one is interfering. I see no sign that the Dems are ready to defend their voters against the bogus accusations of fraud *planned and funded* by the Republican party.

    “Caging” was done here in King County in 2004 — basically, it consists of blanketing a democratic area with letters saying voters have to check in and prove they still live in a place. Then, when they don’t answer the letters, a designated Republican files challenges. The challnges scare off some people and, ultimately, lower the vote.

    The Bellevue woman who did this in 2006 should be in jail, because that’s the penalty for election fraud. The late (republican) Prosecutor chose not to prosecute; the dems chose not to protest.

    (That, by the way, is why I don’t vote for a Republican even for what seems a safely nonpartisan position — when the rubber hits the road, their trunk will show.) I see no sign we’re more ready this time.

    #616570

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    charlabob – you definitely have yourself a deal! The Democrats win, I buy you a drink. Republicans, you buy! I like that plan!

    #616571

    JoB
    Participant

    new resident.. one would think that charlabob’s comment on republican shenanigans gave you renewed hope for your party’s victory ;->

    JUST A GENTLE JOKE .. An all in fun poke in the ribs for those who didn’t see that.

    can i come drink too? either way i think i am going to need it:)

    #616572

    charlabob
    Participant

    absolutely, JoB — speaking only for myself, of course, i suspect we’re going to need these drinks long before November.

    #616573

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I think I’ve decided to not interfere with the debates between you all. You are going to say what you want about Republicans (just as I could say whatever I want about Democrats). The truth is, it’s politics. It will get ugly. I do really enjoy browsing the discussions regarding Hillary and Obama. But, that is not my discussion to have.

    I will say this, though. I’ve said it before. I think the Democrats have a better chance of winning if it’s McCain/Clinton. That’s coming from a Republican.

    And, JoB, you are always invited to drink!

    #616574

    JoB
    Participant

    new resident.. i don’t think of you as interfering at all. sometimes an outside viewpoint is a breath of fresh air…

    we can get so busy defending our own little tree that we miss the forest around it:)

    and i do think it will be interesting what you ultimately decide to do… i don’t envy your position at all… especially when McCain starts to campaign for those independent and cross-over votes.

    If you decide to support him.. i for one will be very interested in your reasons.. and again.. i chose my words carefully.. (i don’t think your reasons will be just rationalizations).

    the more we talk to one another about issues, the more we find that on some very basic levels… we have more in common than our political parties would like us to believe.

    #616575

    Trick
    Participant

    *Jumps in with my 2 cents*

    After seeing the debacle press conference with George and John this morning.

    I’m still in bewilderment that being so military minded and distilling the “fear” factor hasn’t proved to be merose by now.

    Come November, people will vote their pocketbooks above all else, unless we start seeing the level of fear reach orange, unfortunately.

    #616576

    JoB
    Participant

    trick.. and it will reach orange.. or maybe we are all still supposed to be basking in those bonus checks we are getting… or…

    i’m a little cynical some days:)

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