Smoking neighbor :(

[GenHillOne]

fer crissake, talk to them…maybe even point out that a move would be helpful for the warm weather/when your window is open and not that you’re chastising them in general. Smokers have few places to go these days and though not optimal for you, it’s their yard.

–

Fans work great for pushing out hot air anyway, so a great idea. Since we only have one side of the story/history, who knows if they’re aware of the issue or purposely aiming for your window, but if you start some of the passive-agressive business suggested, there’s a good chance they’ll be right under your window in no time. They aren’t doing anything illegal (that’s a slippery slope you’re toeing, cjboffoli) and you won’t have a leg to stand on.

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[me on 28th Ave SW]

MargL: thank you for providing me the longest-laugh I have had all week. Those songs are truly impressive.

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[HelperMonkey]

why bother confronting someone directly when passively posting anonymously on a neighborhood blog is just as good? they’ll learn, right? /not.

and I wasn’t kidding about the hose, but I like the idea of a poorly placed sprinkler even better. ;)

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[WorldCitizen]

GenHillOne:

THANK YOU!!

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[DP]

I’ll go HelperMonkey one better . . .

Sneak into the neighbors’ house while they’re away, hack their computer, and reprogram all their search engines so that, no matter what word they search on, all the results will take them directly to this thread . . .

-What?

-They don’t have Internet?

‘kay. Never mind.

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[cjboffoli]

I think it is always the best solution to try to communicate and work with a neighbor. A handshake over the fence is absolutely the best way to remedy a problem. But unfortunately, there are some unreasonable people in the world. And what is one supposed to do when a neighbor refuses to work with you, even when you’ve done your best to be patient and diplomatic?

I think the suggestions to put a fan in the window are ridiculous. A person should have the right to be able to use a window to ventilate their own house without the constant threat of having the inside of your house filled with carcinogenic cigarette smoke. Keeping very harmful smoke away from non-smokers should be the priority. That smokers don’t have enough places to smoke is a bit farther down the list of priorities. Tens of thousands of non-smokers die every year in the US from exposure to cigarette smoke. I’ve not heard of any smokers dying because they were simply asked to move a bit farther from their neighbor’s windows.

And GenHillOne, talk about a slippery slope: “It’s their yard.” C’mon, REALLY? What does that mean? That because it is your yard you should be able to do anything you want there without any consideration of the neighbors who live ten feet away from you? I think that’s a selfish and antisocial stance. I’m well aware of my rights. But those rights come with responsibilities which include balancing what makes me happy with consideration for my neighbors.

That’s really a red herring anyway though as WSeaFam2 isn’t really talking about what is happening in his neighbor’s yard. The issue is that the smoke is migrating across the property line. That’s the textbook definition of a nuisance. King County has made it illegal for people to smoke outside at bus stops. And it is against State law for people to smoke in public places, which includes people who live in public housing. As a private homeowner and taxpayer why shouldn’t I have some recourse when a neighbor’s smoke is coming inside my house?

If my neighbor wants to smoke in his yard, that’s his choice. But I want to have a choice to not have to breathe his smoke inside my house. It is as simple as that. The 70’s were over a long time ago. The EPA classifies cigarette smoke a “Group A” carcinogen, in the same category as benzene and asbestos. Just as you should not pollute your neighbor’s yard with little clouds of asbestos, smokers need to act responsibly around the non-smokers down wind of their effluent.

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[GenHillOne]

“It’s their yard” means (and I thought I was clear) it’s a legal place for them to smoke. Consideration, or lack there of, has nothing to do with it. It’s legal. I’m not going to debate smoking with you, cjboffoli, because I’ve read your arguments on here a million times and they are delivered with a good dose of moral superiority.

–

I’m not usually in the “anti-nanny state” camp, but a law like cjboffoli is proposing opens up a real mess. Where will it draw the line? Cigarettes, barbecues, country music, neon house paint? So say I’m allergic to strawberries and cottonwood and can drop dead, even from second-hand exposure. Can I go to court to keep my neighbors from planting them? Or I have PTSD from military service and when triggered, I have violent thoughts. Can I go to court to keep my neighborhood from using pneumatic nailers? Your music gives me migraines. Your house color makes me see spots. I have a right to be healthy, yes? Say it’s ridiculous, but you KNOW people will try once a precedent is set.

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[matthewdarling]

Amen GenHillOne!

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[cjboffoli]

GenHillOne: There is nothing morally superior in asking a neighbor to move a reasonable distance from non-smokers that don’t want to breathe their effluent. We’re talking about someone who wants to keep harmful smoke out of the place where they live. They should have just as much right to do that as someone who wants to produce smoke on their property.

The slippery slope logic sounds as weak to me as gay marriage opponents who say that allowing gay people to marry will lead to people wanting to marry farm animals. And I’m not going to take the bait suggesting that every extreme, rare sensitivity must be accommodated to justify protecting non-smokers from the very common and significantly harmful exposure to secondhand smoke. There are an estimated 5 million plus deaths a year worldwide from tobacco (and the leading cause of preventable death in the US). Maybe when deaths from strawberry and cottonwood allergies get to that point you can drop me a line.

The City of Seattle has laws that cover lots of potential nuisances coming from a neighbors property: loud music (including Country I’d imagine), vermin, barking dogs, noxious weeds. King County will respond to complaints of wood smoke if it is unreasonably close and bothersome to neighbors. And considering that a charcoal fire, doused with lighter fluid, produces 100 times as much carbon monoxide as a gas grill, maybe lighting one close to your neighbor’s window isn’t such a good idea. The fact is, we wouldn’t need a nanny state if people would just be more considerate, would follow laws that benefit a common good, and stop stomping their feet for their rights without considering their responsibility to others.

But you’re right. I see it as equally as useless to debate with self-serving smokers who have no choice but to smoke and seem to have a one track mind on this subject as well as an adherence to the fantasy that just because you cannot see the immediate harm of cigarette smoke that it must not exist. However, again, I see this subject as being more about courtesy than cigarette smoke. If you want to smoke, knock yourself out. But don’t expect to inject it into the interior of my house with impunity.

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[Lucian]

It sounds like CJ is also in favor of suing a neighbor over a charcoal BBQ. I think that’s where the ‘slippery slope’ fears show some validity. Law enforcement has no desire to enforce such subjective complaints, neither will a judge rule in his favor.

” Washington Courts, 2010-04-19

Author: Court of Appeals Division I State of Washington

Intro:

Christopher Boffoli filed a complaint for trespass, nuisance, and injunctive relief against his neighbor for producing cigarette smoke that intrudes into his home. The trial court denied Boffoli’s demand for a jury trial. After a bench trial, the trial court entered judgment for the defendant. Because Boffoli fails to demonstrate error, we affirm. . . .

In his amended complaint, Boffoli alleged that his neighbors, XXXX, “continuously smoke cigarettes on a south-facing front deck of their residence on a daily basis” causing smoke to “regularly intrude onto [his] property” through air intake vents and windows. Boffoli further alleged that he had asked the XXXX to remedy the situation and had sent them letters but that the XXXX “were unresponsive” and “continued to smoke cigarettes at their residence, thereby causing the secondhand smoke intrusion to [his] home to continue.” Boffoli requested specific injunctive relief prohibiting the XXXX “from causing cigarette smoke particles and gases to intrude onto [Boffoli’s] property, and . . . from allowing their guests or others to smoke on their property at any location from which the secondhand smoke particles and gases will trespass onto plaintiff’s property or into his residence, and unreasonably interfere with [Boffoli’s] use and enjoyment of his property.” Boffoli also sought damages “in an amount to be determined at trial.”

On the day of trial, the trial court noted that the thrust of the complaint was an action for equitable relief and denied Boffoli’s request for a jury trial. Boffoli and XXXX then testified and presented witnesses, other evidence, and argument. After a week’s recess to allow the parties a final chance at settlement, the trial court stated, “The Court has concluded that based on the evidence, and the law, that there is no legal authority for the Court to issue this injunction,” and dismissed the case. . . .

On this briefing and on this limited record, Boffoli fails to establish an actionable claim of trespass or demonstrate any error by the trial court.”

I think everyone here agrees that we should all strive for courtesy and consideration. I just think trying to pass nanny laws and sue your neighbors is poor form.

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[cjboffoli]

This is the exactly basis of why this issue has had such urgency for me.

Consider how you would feel if you had a neighbor who chain smoked ten feet away and directly upwind of the primary windows and air vents of your house. And you tried to be patient with this situation for over a year before keeping your windows closed on 80 degree days just didn’t cut it any more. And when you finally approached that neighbor, apologetic for having to complain, their reaction to learning that their smoke was intruding INSIDE their neighbors house was to say “We don’t care. We’ll smoke where we like.” The polite request was only that they move to the other side of their porch. They chose to articulate that they had a “right” to smoke where they liked. Even with my windows closed smoke would come into my house through fresh air intakes. Every single day I breathed smoke. My visiting guests, an 85 year-old grandmother, my 10 year-old niece, they had to breathe it too.

So you approach their landlord. But he only cares about collecting the rent. He doesn’t live in the neighborhood and doesn’t care about the neighbors. He just owns the house to make money from it. And to protect his investment he has mandated in the lease that smoking take place outside, in exactly a place where it crosses over the property line onto someone else’s property. You make it clear you are willing to work towards a solution. Fans, trees, partitions. But months go by and they do nothing.

And what did these neighbors do when another neighbor complained about them making too much noise? They put up incredibly loud metal wind chimes. Likewise, after I complained about the cigarette smoke, they moved a charcoal grill as close as they could to my windows and used it just about every other day. Not a clean-burning gas grill, but thick charcoal smoke that would burn for more than an hour. Oh but that wasn’t all. They were also nice enough to vandalize my car and my house simply because I politely asked them if they could move farther away from my windows when they smoke.

City and the King County Board of Health could do nothing to help as the laws still reflect a suburban society with huge buffer zones between the houses. So I had the great pleasure of spending tens of thousands of dollars and three years simply fighting for the right to be able to open the windows of my own house without having its interior filled with cigarette smoke. Thanks to an 80 year-old judge (who happened to be a smoker), the case has had to drag on to higher courts. I tried patience and diplomacy for a year and a half. But you can only do so much when another party is unwilling to do anything. So I had no choice but to use the law to try to catalyze change.

It is exceptionally clear to me who is guilty of “poor form” in this situation.

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[WorldCitizen]

This conversation is nice and all, but the ORIGINAL POSTER never said weather or not they politely asked them to move. Hypotheticals aside, talking to them still MIGHT be the easiest way…

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[JanS]

World Citizen..you are correct. The OP didn’t say that they had talked with the neighbors about the smoking. But…read post #7. He/she has communicated with them in the past regarding an errant pooch, to no avail. Sometimes you know when asking just isn’t gonna cut it.

Hey, through all of this,remember, at least the smoking wasn’t immediately after sex….;->

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[JoB]

your neighbors may or may not be smoking outside your window to annoy you

if that’s the case they are likely to be pleased to learn that it’s working..

not letting it get to you is the best antidote for that kind of malice.

you have control over your space..

you can regulate whether or not the smoke enters your window by putting a fan in the window..

your home will be cooler

the smoke will blow right back at them

and the white noise will mask any comments they might make..

win win

this is a clear case of whether or not one person’s right to pursuit of happiness trumps another’s…

if what they are doing isn’t illegal..

the answer is clearly that it doesn’t.

Some days i wish that was different…

i think my peace of mind is more important than my neighbors right to grow blackberries up to their property line and over my fence and to play loud music and to lock their dogs out at night and to not lock their cats in…. and…

but there you go … if life was arranged to suit me some of you would be pretty bored …

don’t drink.. don’t smoke.. don’t dance.. go to bed by 10 :(

count your blessings.

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[sirophix]

Just adding my two cents as a Seattleite who just Googled “Recourse from smoking neighbor” and came across this site… Fans in the window haven’t worked for me. For those of you who are smokers or have been fortunate enough never to have dealt with smoker neighbors, cigarette smoke is EXTREMELY pervasive for non-smokers.

I 100% agree with CJ. I’m fine with people wanting to smoke on their property so long as it doesn’t bother me. I drink in my home and guess what–it doesn’t affect my neighbors. I watch TV, listen to music, and have a pet, and I work to make sure none of this impacts my neighbors. If it did, I would work hard to fix it. My bottom line is everyone has the right to enjoy life so long as they don’t infringe on others’ enjoyment of life. Sometimes they overlap and I’ll get pissed for a night. But for me, cigarette smoke is absolutely intolerable because it is an issue with such an easy, obvious fix.

Some people (smokers) might read this and think I actually don’t care about smokers’ rights. And if I’m being honest, that’s true. But I’ll put up with smokers to an extent because it’s the law. It’s bad enough I have to walk behind them downtown, or through their clouds as I walk into my place of work (an office building, so they are very clearly violating the law). I’d be a lot less judgmental if it just DIDN’T AFFECT MY AIR.

To that end, does anyone know if those e-cigarettes actually produce only water vapor? I’m happy to buy the neighbors one if it’ll get them to quit with the carcinogens wafting into my house.

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[ellenater]

I agree with GenHillOne.

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[Julie]

…and I agree with sirophix. I think we have here a north-going Zax and a south-going Zax. Who’s going to build the overpass?

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[cjboffoli]

ellenater: I’m curious as to what part of GenHillOne’s argument you agree with. Her slippery slope fallacies, like where she compares the scourge of neon-painted houses to exposure to tobacco smoke (the latter of which kills about a half-million Americans every year)? The implication that we shouldn’t make any accommodations for people with PTSD? Or just the general anti-social feeling that people should always be able to do whatever they want without having to ever consider anyone else?

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[rico]

What a bummer, I saw the title of this post and was hoping to read some great stories of a smoking hot neighbor out sunbathing.

In any case, having been subjected to a neighbor with daily outdoor fires completely smoking out my house and having absolutely no recourse I am with Boffoli on this one.

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[Author]

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