Share the sidewalk

[JoB]

JKB

Forum rule

trash the argument not the person presenting it

personal comment

if the only way you can address the argument is to trash the person making it.. you don’t have much of an argument.

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[JKB]

JoB, could you point to where that’s written down as a forum rule? I just read through the longstanding posted rules and didn’t see any such thing.

I do agree with the principle: ad hominem is rarely if ever valid. But you claimed it as a ‘forum rule’ and I don’t see that. Maybe I just missed it?

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[JoB]

JKB.. the basic rules seem to have disappeared…

A notice says that they are supposed to appear above your post and entry box.. but if they are there I am not able to find them.

I’ll send a note to the editors in the morning to let them know that the basic forum rules seem to be one of the casualties of the latest reorganization.

that one rule.. trash arguments and not people.. though i don’t think that’s exactly how it was stated.. has been the saving grace for the forums.

each and every one of us treads very heavily on that line when we are in a heated argument.. but not crossing it for the most part is what has allowed us to have some very interesting discussions here on a wide range of topics and still want to join together in common causes and sit down over a beverage afterward.

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[JTB]

Posted rules or not, I think it’s true that personal attacks in place of a well-reasoned argument are an indication of a lazy intellect, sometimes a lack of intelligence and often a mean-spirited intent. Now, I do appreciate that it’s possible to have wry, or sarcastic posts with the intent of making a point while having some fun. Those may be misunderstood, but usually the follow up makes clear what the real intent was and the discussion can move along.

This thread is pretty interesting on a number of levels. I thought whatever point about sidewalk congestion in the OP was overshadowed by the arrogant reference to families with “perfect” children and dogs as well as the questionable assertion that old people were obliged to walk into traffic to get around the crowd. So I made a snarky response. Once it was clear I hadn’t considered a number of ways people with mobility issues might be affected, I apologized.

The ensuing discussion seems to have heightened awareness of the lack of awareness and consideration many people surprisingly still have for individuals who are challenged to get around. I would consider that to entail anyone who has an obvious limp or strained gait to someone in an electric wheel chair the control through a straw. But I’m really surprised and disappointed to learn this remains an issue and I think it’s good to have it made clear.

Otherwise, it’s interesting to think about how online discussions can become fractious and counterproductive.

Of course, the unfortunate tendency for political debate to become mean-spirited and intellectually dishonest is probably one of the most obvious contributors to poor-quality discussion in place of honest exchange online. People seem quick to adopt that style, quite possibly because it’s an easy substitute for the difficult task of critical thinking. And it’s what everyone sees. Unfortunately it often results in people getting in over their head, when they start parroting concepts and even language they clearly don’t even comprehend.

For example, I had an exchange with someone on another forum who was complaining strongly about us, the US, giving Iran billions of dollars in the pending nuclear inspection deal that we should be using for our own domestic needs. When I pointed out the money actually belonged to Iran and had been withheld due to the sanctions, the person said he didn’t understand what I meant and basically restated his view about not giving Iran our money.

But the approach I find most annoying and difficult to respect is that which begins with misrepresenting another’s presumed thinking or intent and portraying it in demeaning terms. Most often that’s political and most often it doesn’t merit comment, mostly because it’s not intended to invite honest discussion or debate.

I admit, I’ll sometimes keep after some issue in hopes of eventually getting to a recognition of what the basic differences are beyond the drama and inaccuracies so people can have some clear difference to consider rather than just opinions. That can become tedious. But it also can wind up with mutual recognition of what the honest differences are. I think that happened some time ago here in the discussions about gun control.

But it’s much easier if personal insults are left out. If someone can’t convey dislike or even disagreement with another point of view without getting nasty, they probably aren’t doing themselves or their point of view any good.

I will allow there are some views and opinions that invite sharp condemnation in plain terms. That would include racist, misogynist, homophobic language or positions. But even that condemnation will be most effective when delivered in an even manner.

As JoB implies, we’re all in this together, and even though we may have different opinions on various matters, we can hopefully share some common cause or just mutual company.

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[HappyOnAlki]

Hear, hear! A voice of reason (not that we needed one or anything) — thank you, JTB.

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[JKB]

Just a few things…

JoB, I completely agree that ad hominem attacks are wrong. Please note that I was responding to your conduct (posts that read as giant tirades, themselves including sharp personal criticisms) and not to your person.

And while the principle is clear, thinking about it kept revealing places where the application is tricky. Imagine someone whose comments are often false. Eventually you conclude that he’s a liar or an incompetent. Doesn’t that personal judgment then color your opinion of the next thing he says?

Then there’s language. English grammar is ambiguous, many words have multiple meanings, words and phrases change meaning over time and are sometimes coopted for various reasons, and the writing of forum posts isn’t always precise.

So one might hesitate before thinking someone’s in over their head. For that matter, there are differences of opinion on what is racist/sexist/etc. and some of those differences can be legitimate disagreement. When someone has a considered opinion different from yours, perhaps you shouldn’t jump directly to thinking he’s a monster.

Here, I’ll close with a gift. One more admonition: don’t take it all so personally. The gift part is the admission that I make this exact error myself. Less than I used to, or so I believe.

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[JoB]

JKB

not everything can be clearly expressed in a 60 second soundbite… especially when you have to spend half of your post pointing out that you didn’t say what the other person claims you said. I work very hard to make sure my posts are clear and concise.

I have a lot invested in my life, my country and my community.

the ugliness i see in people who refuse to even consider the needs of anyone who is not like themselves greatly saddens me…

but the ugliness I see directed towards those who do try to help does far more than sadden me.. it offends me deeply.

I speak up because it is the only act i have left in a lifetime that has been full of activism…

and it turns out.. perhaps it is the most powerful.

I have spent the majority of my adult life trying to get my point across without making waves and the ugly truth is that it simply isn’t possible when the people you are talking with can’t consider anything other than the personal criticism they think is leveled at them.

so…

If you find my posts long winded, I am sorry.

If you take the criticisms in them personally, I am sorry.

If you just plain don’t think you like who you think i am, I am sorry.

but it’s not going to change how i post.

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[redblack]

aaanyways, i find that making eye contact with people walking at me goes a long way. so does the occasional smile. people will pretty invariably acknowledge my presence and share the sidewalk accordingly.

no solution to the self-entitled sidewalk parties, though. i usually go around. it”s faster than waiting for them to get their shit together enough to be aware of traffic around them and get out of the way.

i’m with smitty, though. basic courtesy is on its way out.

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[JTB]

I was walking on the sidewalk today where the bus stop is on Alaska outside of Key Bank. Tight line of people hurridly and impatiently filing onto the bus and no way to get through other than between two people. “Excuse me” was enough to get a slight gap and squeeze through. A woman behind me at the corner had apparently gone through the line closer to the benches and when she caught up with her companion, I heard her say in a dead pan manner, “I feel like I’ve been violated”

I thought anyone on a scooter or using a cane would have to be pretty audible and clear about their intent to navigate that scene.

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[JoB]

and it’s not just navigating the sidewalks..

tonight we came up the hill on Thistle at 30th… and someone walking along the sidewalk decided to cross without bothering to look in any direction.

that hill is a blind hill and cars travel much too quickly on it. The guy behind us was not paying attention and came far too close to rear-ending us when we stopped for the pedestrian.

hogging the sidewalk, stepping out into traffic without looking, speeding up the hill to a blind intersection and either honking and flashing lights because the person in front of you slows down or pulling around to speed to a screeching halt because the person in front of you had a reason for stopping…

you can do all of those things.

but that doesn’t mean you should.

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[JanS]

reading this discussion and thinking that the written word is so more often taken the wrong way than words spoken face to face. It’s easier to anonymously hide behind the keyboard. It’s a good reason to have meetups in the community every now and then to get to know each other face to face. It often changes opinions about people. We did it last year in October…a picnic at Lincoln Park.Was great fun. And another meetup in the near future. Guess we’ll have to make sure there’s a BIG invite to everyone, and see how many show up :)

And now back to your original programming.

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[JanS]

so share the sidewalk !

(and get off my lawn!)

;-)

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[redblack]

then there’s this little anecdote about situational awareness, civility, etc.

i was in the junction QFC sometime around thanksgiving, and it was busy. i finished shopping and took my full cart to the front of the store. each of the 3 or 4 registers that was open was full. i couldn’t get in line without conpletely blocking the main east-west aisle, so i hung back in one of the other aisles and started re-checking my list, waiting for some space, taking my time.

presently, a young mom and her seemingly catatonic cart-bound child came right up to me, and she asked, “are you in line?”

i looked up from my list, peered at her over the top of my reading glasses, and smiled. “sort of,” i said.

“gotta be aggressive,” she replied, and lurched forward. her slack-jawed brood’s head lolled forward from the sudden acceleration, and then snapped back as she stopped and was nearly sunk amidships by a slowly cruising eastbound cart. realizing she had nowhete to go, the aggressive young woman glanced at me as she tried to drag the ass-end of her cart around to make room.

“or patient,” i said.

gotta be aggressive? really? why?

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