Rant – WS Farmers Market

[Shibaguyz]

Well stated points all. I’m glad this has opened up a discussion like this.

When it comes down to it, we do spend our money at the Ballard Farmers Market. BTW, the West Seattle and University markets are managed by the same folks. We’ve run into this same woman at both. She put her hand up in front of us at the University Market when we tried walking in there with our boys. We needed to finish our shopping so Jason stood outside and I yelled across the booths to him through the fence. We were asked by vendors and patrons why we were doing it. When I made it a point to tell them, the wild haired woman (with a cowboy hat on this time) showed up with some guy next to her to ask us to stop making a scene about it. Then, a police officer on a bicycle showed up to follow my partner around while he “shopped with me” through the fence.

I wasn’t going to drag every incident through the forum here with how we’ve been treated. I did, at first, just want to find out if someone could get more information than we were given. However, talking about it has brought on a renewed sense of peeved off and the social crusader in me is starting to come out.

Yes, I agree that people have the right to manage their businesses as they like. Yes, I understand that some folks have a phobia about dogs. No, it does not violate any health codes. Yes, maybe they do need more space and feel like some people’s dogs get out of hand in such cramped quarters.

If you CHOOSE to not allow dogs in, then at least be able to answer the question when posed to you about why your rule suddenly changed without notice. She said it changed as a result of a “vote by the community.” I explained to her that we WERE the community and knew of no such vote. When I spoke to several of the vendors that we are acquainted with from attending the markets for years now, they had attended no such meeting or voted on anything like that. We asked her when the next “community meeting” was and she flat out refused to tell us anything and said she had to go.

If they do feel like some dogs have gotten out of hand, then have people walking the market to prevent such things. Yes, it is the owner’s responsibility 100% to prevent their dogs from snarking while they are in public places. And, if I had (GAWD forbid!) that kind of dog, I would accept being asked to leave.

I guess the real issue is that I have been dodged by this woman and by the people at the market too many times and given too many inconsistent answers. We still shop for our dog and cat food there in the Junction, and often on Sundays on our return trip from the Ballard Market, so I always make it a point to stop by the West Seattle Market booth and let them know that I am a West Seattle resident that supports another farmers market because of their policies. I also go to my friends at a few of the booths and let them know that I have been to their booths at the other market because I can’t bring my dogs in.

Now… I don’t mean to get on a rant… oh wait… yes I do!! LOL

I mean seriously!! We take our two boys to Tiffany & Co., Macy’s & Nordstrom on a regular basis. We also frequent Pike Place and ALL of the shops and eating establishments there. We always ask ahead of time if they are allowed to come in then we do business with those places that allow us to enter. We have our favorite sandwich shop, a coffee joint, a wine/truffle shop and about a dozen other businesses that welcome our boys with open arms and treats from behind the counter. The one place even ENCOURAGES us to come in because it draws a crowd and he can sell them more of his product. We get a discount if we stick around long enough! LOL

Okay, so maybe now this is a true rant. I just want people to stop jerking us around. Give me a straight, honest, believable answer and I’ll be happy. And… have the human decency to say it to my face instead of avoiding me and lying to me.

There… that’s my rant for now. Thank you all for responding and weighing in. You have certainly made me consider a few other thought paths these folks may have taken. What a great community this is here!

talk to you soon…

Shibaguyz

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[JimmyG]

Is the WS Farmer’s Market a private business–yes or no? (I know it’s registered non-profit organization.)

And the parking lot it’s held on is private property isn’t it?

If it’s a private business on private property then they can set the rules any way they want and ban dogs irrespective of health codes. The only dogs allowed would be service or guide dogs.

I’m a huge dog lover, we own 3 very large ones. Yet I don’t expect to take them everywhere and am very cognizant of people who don’t want dogs around.

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[WSB]

OK – here’s the answer from the Neighborhood Farmers’ Market Alliance, which runs WS and most other farmers’ markets (though NOT Ballard) — I am rushing out to an appt so not even time to reformat this, just cutting and pasting from e-mail, sorry

======

(this part is an excerpt from a NFMA newsletter last year, according to the spokesperson who replied to me)

Dogs at the Farmers Markets

Every season we get asked why we allow dogs at some markets but not

others.

Shoppers on both sides of the equation (pro-dog and anti-dog) often

have

strong opinions, and many valid reasons both pro and con for including

canines at the markets. Farmers markets in Washington State are free

to

make their own rules about dogs at their markets (in other states, such

as

California, it is illegal to allow dogs at any farmers market). Our

policy

differs from neighborhood to neighborhood based partly on shopper

survey

results and partly on the logistics and setting of each market. The

majority of dogs are well-behaved, but we have had incidents (even

already

this year) of dogs jumping up and eating samples off vendors’ tables,

dogs

getting into fights with each other, and dogs on leashes causing

obstruction

or safety hazards. Fortunately these incidents are uncommon, and

because

the markets are walking destinations and leisurely outings for many,

many

shoppers, we try to accommodate dogs where we can. Of course, service

dogs

are allowed at all markets.

_______________________________

(this was added context from the spokesperson)

As stated above, this issue comes up over and over – people who don’t

think

they should be there tell us to not allow them at the markets where we

do

allow them, and of course vice-versa! It is impossible to please both

sides, and unfortunately it only takes one careless dog owner for

something

unfortunate to happen.

It might be worth noting, too, that last year at our first season at

Phinney, we allowed dogs. By the end of the season, the Phinney

Neighborhood Association decided to stop allowing dogs at that market –

they

felt there were too many problems and the market too crowded. This was

not

our decision, but we have to abide by the rules they set, and they

presumably represent the community in that neighborhood.

=======

–TR

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[flowerpetal]

My what a tempest in a teapot… or so it seems to me. I am a dog lover and we have one (only one) in our family. She is a retired service dog and is well mannered. Some places she can go and some places she cannot. We just shrug it off and to those places she doesn’t go with us. We love the farmer’s market too much to go across town, burning fuel and wasting energy just because our dog can’t go to the market.

That said, its too bad that Shibaguyz were given inconsistent answers and treated poorly. At this point, I don’t think that you will ever get an answer that will be satisfactory to you.

BTW, those sure are a cute pack of pups that you all have… they look like a joyful bunch!

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[JimmyG]

flowerpetal–now I know why you and I bonded over our agreement in an earlier thread that off-leash parks aren’t for our dogs. We have one retired service dog, and one that flunked out of his training. I raised both of them as pups and took them back when their time as working dogs had ended.

As to the decision of the WS Farmer’s Market to not allow dogs I’m completely behind a business setting the rules they want. If I disagree, I can go elsewhere.

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[Shibaguyz]

lowmanbeach – thank you for taking the time to contact them. At least now I have something in writing that I can refer to. I will take up my issues with them myself now.

My entire problem in this is that they have avoided us at all costs. Even to the point of lying about who they were to avoid talking to us about the subject. I guess two big guys can be intimidating but it’s their market to run how they please. It is also my right to ask about such an abrupt and, seemingly, unwarranted change in policy.

This information will give me at least something to refer to when I speak with them myself. Again, thank you for contacting them and getting a response. I do appreciate your time.

Thanks to all for chatting about this.

talk to you soon…

The Shibaguyz

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[JimmyG]

I was thinking about this issue while I was just out taking my dogs for a drag, and it comes down to this for me:

I love my dogs (I love them more than I like 90% of humans) and I’d do anything to keep them happy and healthy. That being said, not everyone loves our “boyz”, and I don’t feel any sense of entitlement that they can always come along with me everywhere I go.

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[Anonymous]

JimmyG – I completely agree with your final assessment. We have a little dog that we can, literally, put in my purse to go places, but we don’t do that. Not every establishment happily accepts pets and I would rather go and enjoy myself somewhere than being nervous the whole time that someone will complain about our dog. We actually don’t take our dog on a lot of outings.

I think that the whole issue with the Shibaguyz was the fact that they were allowed to bring their dogs to ONE market, but not another. That is inconsistent which is frustrating from a customer’s point of view. I guess the two markets have different owners, but not everybody just KNOWS that. I think if I were in their position, I would be pretty P****off too.

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[Shibaguyz]

I will apologize in advance for not having been clear up to this point. I am usually a better communicator than this but it appears that my point has gotten lost and has been summed up for me several times without actually being stated well at all.

I will restate my position about this thread. I do not feel entitled to do anything when it comes to any part of my life. I feel like I have earned the right to do a lot of things in my life but I do not feel like any of it came as part of an entitlement package somewhere along the line.

Being able to take our “boyz” along with us is a privilege that we gratefully acknowledge whenever possible. Yes, we take them just about everywhere with us. If I started a list, it would go on forever. There is, however, no sense of entitlement with that. We always ask an establishment if they allow dogs and we do go to some places without them. However, over the past few years, we have found a surprising number of restaurants, coffee houses, shops and stores that gladly welcome our family.

My issue here is with the West Seattle Market managers and their abrupt change of rules that shocked both us and the other dog families that were left standing on the edges of the market a little at a loss for what to do.

When we asked for an explaination, we were given the run around and told that if we didn’t leave immediately we would be removed. You can go back through this thread to get the entire picture.

I posted here wondering if anyone had any information to share. NOT to say that we were entitled to take our boyz anyplace with us that we pleased despite the wishes of the owner.

I have always clearly understood that the markets are managed by different people. My comparison of the two markets was for the purpose of trying to find out what the laws were in this state regarding outdoor markets.

My questions have now been answered and I will take up any remaining issues with the managers of the West Seattle Farmers Market.

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[JoB]

shibaguysz..

i get it.. it isn’t that they changed the rules.. it’s the way you and other dog owners were treated when they did..

strong arm tactics don’t win friends.. and certainly doesn’t encourage you to leave your dogs home to visit the market.

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[Ken]

I never thought of taking my dogs to the market.

For one thing oldest is a butter thief and will snag anything edible off the table or counter if he thinks he is unobserved. The 100 lbs “puppy” would happily turn over a table to get it’s contents within eating range. That’s why they “own” the back yard. They will not be going to the market or any other place that sells food.

Private businesses can set any rules they like and private individuals can always vote on those rules with their feet.

However the retractable leash is the one item most misused by dog owners in public places by the “oblivious” people who, even without their dogs, wander trance-like in public places and businesses blocking aisles with their carts, standing and chatting in doorways and crossing streets without looking in either direction.

Seattle is full of them and I suspect even some of you might recognize yourself if you look back over your weekend strolls.

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[TheHouse]

First time I checked here. I hope that both the WS Farmers Market and Pike Place continue to ban dogs.

I like dogs, I’ve had dogs, but dogs are not people. Don’t even try to compare children to dogs.

There is always a potential for them to fight, for them to bite and they piss on anything to mark their territory. The last thing I want is a dog pissing on my little crate of blackberries or my fingerling potatoes.

If you can’t live without your dog for 1 hour while you visit the FM, then perhaps you shouldn’t frequent it.

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[Shibaguyz]

Or, perhaps I’ll just visit a farmers market that does allow dogs.

I didn’t say my dogs were people. I do not compare them to children in the sense of being the same as a human child. They are completely different species. Don’t trivialize the point I was making by diluting it with such statements.

I’ve never seen or heard of a dog pissing on a crate of blackberries or fingerling potatoes. If you don’t like the thought of buying something in an open air market, then perhaps you should shop at Safeway.

I spend more than 1 hour at the farmers market. Again, you trivialize the true point of my posts by making overly simplistic statements about me not being able to live without them for 1 hour.

Again, perhaps I will continue to frequent markets that do accept my dogs.

And, by the way, Pike Place Market does not ban dogs. We go there at least twice a month with two or three of our dogs.

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[Anonymous]

A popular fertilizer/anti-fungal used in organic farming is human urine, so to each his own.

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[JanS]

lol…JT, thanks for that little bit of information ;-)

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[Shibaguyz]

JT – OMG The freakin’ made me laugh out loud. Woke up the whole house. LOL Thanks… I needed that…

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[JoB]

i could do without thinking of urine of any kind in contact with my food.. thank you:)

House. well behaved dogs at their owners side are often much less obtrusive than children.

Of course, the parents of obtrusive children.. children who touch everything in reach without permission.. children who squeal constantly in joy, anger or just plain boredom… children who fight with one another… children who cause their parents to loudly plead and bargain with them.. or play loud games to distract them… children who run about with minimal parental supervision.. (it is not enough to know where your kids are.. you should also know what they are doing…)… those parents rarely have well behaved dogs either.

Both conscientious dog owners and conscientious parents occasionally have a dog or child that acts out.

How that incident is handled determines whether the dog or child really should be inflicted on others in public.

The people who allow their children to run amok are often those complaining loudest about the mere presence of dogs.

I think sometimes it is too easy to think of your own “rights” while ignoring the rights of others to enjoy public spaces…

and that happens on both sides of the dog/kids fence.

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[JanS]

JoB..I couldn’t agree more. I went to a matinee play Saturday afternoon at Seattle Center. We decided to get some tea at a local cafe near there. There were kids everywhere…and parents who were more interested in talking with their friends than supervising their children. Three kids, same family, all decided to play with the “condiments” for tea and coffee…honey, cinnamon, sugar, etc. And the mother would glance in their direction every now and then to make sure that the kids weren’t getting into anything that may harm THEM…totally oblivious to the fact that it was now all over the floor, and these kids had their fingers/germs/snotty nosed fingers on everything…ah…but they were being “creative”…how cute…NOT!

I can deal with dogs as long as they don’t trip me, jump on me, sniff where they shouldn’t…children on the other hand…

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[etherhuffer]

We have a very nice, tame reindeer we keep in our back yard. He is very nice and never bothers anyone,except during rutting season, when he got a little frisky with the lady down the block who wears chopsticks in her hair. He won’t lick anyone and doesn’t bite at all, but does have a swarm of deer flies that follow him around like papparazzi folly Britney Spears. If I promise he doesn’t step on any toes or eat any organic carrots, can he go to the market? If he can’t, I am thinking of having him dressed out and sold there as he sure eats a lot.

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[vincent]

Aww poor poor passive aggressive Seattle. Because people are too spineless to call each other on their crap, we are stuck with situations were the “rules” must fill in and be the silent overreaching mother in society.

The real reason I think it irritates people they cant bring dogs is its an outdoor local market, which implies things like *community* and is an alternative to shipping food across the country with subsidized gas. So doing something like walking your dog and visiting a community market kinda make sense. Apparently it causes brain damage for someone to ask someone to keep their errant child/dog/reindeer in check, or simply have a code of conduct that applies to people/children/dogs and just enforce it.

or hey, why not get rid of the mall layout of the farmers market and make it more inclusive so people don’t have to deal with bumping into each other, dogs and having screaming children run into them.

PS: I hate SUV strollers.

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[barmargia]

vincent, I absolutely second that comment about the SUV strollers. I was in a grocery store yesterday where one was being wheeled around and it took up so much room, and of course he couldn’t be bothered with watching where he was going. But I guess if a bunch of cans or veggies fell in front of him he could still wheel his toddler over them.

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[Anonymous]

Why do parents have so much stuff nowadays? You should see these people get on an airplane. What should take about 2 minutes (get on the plane, stow your things and sit down) takes these types of parents about 20 minutes!

I can say this because I have a child and have traveled with her extensively.

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[Anonymous]

….and I know we’ve covered dogs and leashes and children out of control, but what about kids on leashes? Has anyone run into a hazardous situtation with that one?

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[beachdrivegirl]

Kids on leashes is just wrong. If you have to keep your kid on a leash I dont think you should be a parent.

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[JoB]

i am not so sure about the kids and leashes thing. at first i was appalled.. but knowing how fast a kid can slip out of an adults hand.. and what can happen to them if they do… i am not sure a tether i such a bad idea…

however.. parents with kids on tether seem to use tethers instead of a hand… and that’s just another excuse for poor parenting.

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[Author]

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