Middle Class income grew "only" 40% in 30 years!

[JV]

JanS, so you think that if the government took that $25M, then they would do a better job with it than the CEO?

Where/when has the government EVER demonstrated that it is good with money?

It gets wasted on pet projects for corrupt politicians, bad policies, and a bloated government.

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[JanS]

JV…the same could be said for you. Just insert “conservative” for “liberal” You can’t bring anything to the equation except branding “liberals”. We all know there is waste/fraud, etc…from all sides. It’s not just a poor thing. But you can’t admit that. Therein lies the problem. Until you admit that it’s a two sided thing, there is no conversation…and never will be. I know waste and fraud. I saw waste and fraud early on when I was in the army in the early 70’s. Plenty of waste that had nothing to do with “poor” people. It was the gov’t. allowing it to happen. Yet..this is overlooked and the brunt of displeasure is always on the “welfare” queen. Each side accusing the other. Tit for tat.

Bostonman’s boss’s political beliefs are perfectly fine for him. It works for him. He’s a lot more compassionate than many with big bucks. So what if he’s Democrat..unless you’re saying that because of those beliefs he’s simply not as good as a Repub with 24M…

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[JanS]

I never said anything close to the gov’t. doing better with his 25M…wherever did you get that?

and that bloat, waste, etc. came from both sides…please remember that…

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[Bostonman]

Perhaps he doesn’t need $25m a year to live but he earned it building a company and providing 100 jobs to people so I guess if he can provide that kind of benefit then he can keep his $25M a year and do with it as he pleases. Keep in mind he still pays taxes on top of that.

My only purpose for pointing out the democrat title was so that it is known that rich in the end doesn’t have an allegience. The only thing they care about is making sure they wind up with the same take home money as before and they will do it no matter what we do to prevent it.

I saw his list of charities and I am glad it didn’t go to the government. He chose a lot of local charities as well as some large ones.

My only point was be careful what you wish for because there could be a lot of unintended consequenses in removing that money from the companies who rely on charitable contributions. Government is not supposed to provide us with everything and honestly they can’t.

Other than that I don’t care if you want to raise his taxes and make him give the $24M to the government at the end of the year. I don’t rely on the services he is giving too and it won’t affect my income. But, I feel for the people who do.

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[JV]

We agree Jan! There is a ton of waste in every government department, including the military.

We also agree that bloat, waste, etc. comes from both sides! Two for two!

And we agree that the government would squander the $25M! Three for three!

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[kootchman]

Let’s see, the government gets into student loans.. a rare event 30 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, higher education costs soar 250 per cent in the last two decades. One trillion and counting. The government decides to dictate the terms of national housing policy, and home prices skyrocket, rising over 60% in less than two decades. Jans loves to “minimize” waste fraud and abuse as small price to pay…when it is not small. It is huge. The government can squander at levels that make the worst fraud seem tame,.. this year alone.. , Solyndra, Fesker, Beacon Energy, Compact Power (Korea), Hitachi, Panasonic, Severstal… and this is ONE department… Dept of Energy…. throw in GM, and sprinkle in the AIG assets it can’t sell… and we are in the billions. they want more… another 420 billion as a “jobs” stimulus bill…. thanks but no thanks… maybe Jan the loss of empathy is in the very fabric of socialized programs.

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[redblack]

JV: i’m your huckleberry.

there is massive waste, fraud, and abuse in government spending. and i’d bet that the bulk of that waste is going into corporate hands.

and for every 40″ flat tee vee paid for with welfare, i’ll show you a bank account in the cayman islands set up by someone’s crooked tax attorney.

but the big difference between the leaches at the top and poor people is that poor people can’t buy themselves public relations blitzes, lobbyists, politicians, entire networks, or entire elections.

in other words, they have a harder time convincing people to vote for their interests. yet there are far more of them than there are members of the upper class.

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[redblack]

Let’s see, the government gets into student loans.. a rare event 30 years ago

wrong again!

look up the national defense education act which spurned the perkins loan (as opposed to a grant.) how about the guaranteed student loan program, also known as the stafford loan.

the government started student loans so that average non-wealthy people could also have higher education.

and private banks ruined them by adding profit motive. but you’ll find a way to deny any correlation between the relatively recent phenomenon of non-governmental college loans and the explosion of college costs, right?

“oh,” you say. “but what gives them the right to have something they weren’t born with? and why should i pay for it?”

that’s the libertarian philosophy, ain’t it?

just goes to show you that everything good that government does can easily be destroyed by private industry. and at three times the cost! big business is every bit the wasteful, entitled, bureaucratic nightmare that they accuse the government of being.

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[dawsonct]

I think the single craziest thing I hear wrong-wingers repeat ad naseum, and there are SO many to choose from, is the notion that the poor in America are poor by choice so they can receive all the terrific percs. Seriously!?!? How many of you in the self-righteous sector have had to live in those circumstances? I don’t mean your BMW needs a repair, so you have to cut back on dinners out for a couple of weeks, I’m talking about REAL, can’t pay my bills, rent is coming due, and I don’t know if I really want to eat rice and beans for the third week in a row kind of poor.

Again, you all complain about the pennies your brothers and sisters are taking, but say NOTHING about the millions and billions that are being siphoned from OUR collective wealth, into the pockets and off-shore bank accounts of people who really don’t give a damn about our Nation and most certainly don’t give a flying F about you, other than you consistently voting against your and your Nation’s best interests.

You’re still not going to be invited to join their club.

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[dawsonct]

If MY government is wasteful with the tax dollars they collect from us, I can do something about it, I have avenues for redress. If a corporation wastes my tax-dollars, what the hell am I going to do? contact the CEO to express my displeasure? Good luck with that. I DON’T want my government to focus on making a profit, that isn’t why we have a government. I like that medicare operates with only a 3% overhead. We don’t have to spend our tax-dollars paying CEO salaries, building vast corporate temples, purchasing gold-plated Gulfstreams. Our money is spent on administration, for which we pay less than the private sector, and the public, for whom the service is provided.

Most importantly, we really don’t need to make every aspect of our American lives be a basis for someone to make a profit. For one thing, whenever we turn a government function over to the private sector, it ALWAYS ends up costing us, the tax-paying citizenry, MUCH more, the system of delivery becomes less effective, and those who would bennefit most from a program, are often priced out of their ability to access the program.

So once again, our Nation’s promise is reserved ONLY for those who can afford it.

Do you REALLY think that was the goal our Founders had in mind?

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[TDe]

The student loan thing surfaces again. Honestly, it’s really not a simple issue on any side of the politcal spectrum.

The National Defense Education Act of 1958 started student loans and the government directly provided the first loans so more of our citizens could access higher education and better compete with other nations (Sputnik scared the crap out of Congress). Then, because of loss and messes in that government program, Congress turned it over to private enterprise with the Higher Education Act of 1965 and set up a system to underwrite student loans so banks would be willing to lend their private money without too much fear of loss (FFELP loans, renamed Stafford). After all, Congress deemed the loans should be given without credit reviews, which made them high risk loans. Congress laid the groundwork to establish guarantee agencies to administer the programs in states and regions across the U.S. and also established a complex system of rules for those agencies to follow, to be overseen by a branch of the Department of Education. That system worked for 30-40 years and employed a large industry of people. Republicans especially and Democrats generally, supported this heavily subsidized program. Congress set all the rates and rules around those loans and subsidies and drove the industry crazy with almost yearly changes that colleges, banks and guarantee agencies had to implement. Didn’t really matter which political party held a majority.

The administration of Bush Senior changed federal accounting standards around all government loans and subsidies and in doing so, decided the banks were making too much money from student loans. They also figured the government should be able to reap rewards from the interest that banks were making on those loans. So, they brought back direct government lending as an updated pilot program. Clinton’s administration locked that program into place to compete with the private sector loan program. Bush Jr’s administration began seriously cutting bank subsidies driving some small lenders out of the student loan business and starting layoffs in the industry. Obama’s administration dealt the final blow to FFELP (Stafford) and brought student loans back into the governmental fold. Now you can only get federal student loans directly from the government. And yeah, there was also some abuse of the private sector program. Not as much as Congress itself has had over the years, but there definitely was some abuse. Hundreds if not thousands of workers in the student loan industry across the U.S. were laid off just as the recession ramped up.

You can still get private student loans from banks, but those are not government subsidized, require credit checks, are usually no cap interest rate loans tied to Prime or Libor rates and whatever interest rates borrowers get are tied to their credit scores.

The funny thing is that having the government fully run the student loan program was always touted as a greater benefit for students, but the truth is that the rates and rules of federal student loans have not changed at all – just who administers the program. Now the government directly lends approx $10B per year in taxpayer money rather than the banks lending their money and yeah, it will be a cost savings to the government down the road as students pay off their loans and the government gets that interest. Right now though, not so much in savings.

And yes, college costs have gone through the roof, like everything else. You don’t pay your professors top dollars, you don’t get top professors and you don’t attract students. You don’t provide outstanding facilities, you don’t attract students either. Our kids generally prefer top notch facilities and cool programs. Whose fault is that?

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[JV]

Redblack, we agree that committing a crime is wrong no matter what end of the economic scale the perp is on. Waste is coming out of both ends…so to speak. It doesn’t matter if the person commiting the crime is a Democrat or Republican, it matters that they are a criminal. Lock ’em up. (See Madoff and John Corzine) So how do we stop it?

Deny the money to them. Deny the loopholes to corporations. Didn’t Obama promise transparency among other broken promises? No lobbyists will work in his administration? He is just as corrupt as the rest of the politicians.

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[JoB]

JV….

how about we just stop the special tax break that Bush gave them?

how about they simply pay taxes like the rest of us do?

i, for one, am not looking forward to crunching our tax numbers this year…

but that hasn’t sent us out looking for write-offs to offset our tax burden…

in fact, unless we buy a house before the end of the year we won’t even be able to write off our charitable contributions.

i am sure there are those among you who will label that pure stupidity…

but there you go.

Hubby earned the money

we pay the taxes

it’s that simple.

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[JoB]

btw…

i don’t think any govt agency gave anyone iphones…

but i do think that drive by assumptions lead to some really erroneous conclusions…

I am glad that those of you who opt out of more comprehensive healthcare programs are able to do so because your families are healthy.

but i have to ask…

what will you do if that changes?

are you one heartbeat, one irregular mole, one troublesome symptom that doesn’t go away, one accident away from sitting in that waiting room yourself because you didn’t buy enough health insurance to meet the need you didn’t anticipate?

I have seen unexpected illness wipe out a lifetime of savings in less than a month…

while the insurance company backpedals attempting to cut it’s costs.

good luck with that.

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[JV]

JoB, sounds like we agree that we should simplify the tax code and cut exotic loopholes… including those for bogus windmill and solar scams. (Solyndra? I think they harness and sell Unicorn Power! We should send them money! Oops, that was an example of an Obama loophole. I forgot we were still talking about Bush.)

And I wouldn’t label you as stupid. I think more liberals who want higher taxes should start by paying more themeselves. I commend you for putting your husband’s money where your mouth is! (Nothing is stopping others like Warren Buffett, Michael Moore, etc. from writing the IRS a check tomorrow)

Or you can buy a house in West Seattle, which will lower your taxes, and help the local housing market. I guarantee you can spend your money better than sending it to the IRS and hoping they create a job for your neighbor. See how a functioning economy works? Wait, now I’m rethinking the stupidity of your choice to pay more in taxes! (yet not calling you stupid) ;)

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[JoB]

JV…

my husband’s money?

sorry dude.. you lost me there.

I am one of those liberals who consider marriage a partnership.

i definately hold down my end of this partnership

and we make our financial decisions together.

one of the best things about our partnership

is that we share values, ethics and politics

believe it or not..

even though i am also the one with the time to invest in the charitable work we both value…

i am the more conservative partner when it comes to politics…

i wanted to buy a house in West Seattle this year… I had one all picked out…

then the commute from here to Fremont for hubby’s job went from an easy 20 minutes to a less easy half hour to who knows what it will be tomorrow.

we are no longer looking at houses in West Seattle but we are still looking for the right house.

Hubby’s time is that valuable.

unfortunatley, the stupid little woman wasting her husband’s hard earned money flapping her jaws insinuations say a whole lot more about you than they do about me.

And incidentally..

too much about your ability to tender a valid argument

kootch..

your comment about retirement funds lands in the same murky puddle…

yes, we still hold those assets…

which are currently valued at far less than they were at the beginning of the year…

enough less to purchase a fine automobile

to replace my 10 year old 150,000 mile rolling kennel :(

in spite of your flim-flam you are an intelligent man and know that value didn’t disappear into thin air.. it was transferred into profits for someone else.

I think i deserve that new car more than they do.

i know i would put it to better use.

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[JV]

Sounds like I hit a nerve. And again, I didn’t call you stupid. You did. All I did is quote you accurately.

Good luck with your search for a new home. Glad you are choosing to participate in free market capitalism.

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[dobro]

Looks like someone unhooked the sewer line from Fox News and pointed it over here at WSB. Are there any right wingers that can think for themselves or are they all just talking points clowns?

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[JV]

Oooh, a Fox News smackdown! Good one ‘bro!

Any topics you disagree with that you’d like to discuss, or is it enough for you to just say the words “Fox News” call me a clown, then hit send? I’m sure it made you feel really cool, and it’s definitely easier than having your beliefs challenged!

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[dobro]

“or is it enough for you to just say the words “Fox News” call me a clown,”

Yes, it’s enough.

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[JV]

Sweet. Enjoy your bubble!

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[JanS]

I am always amazed (or maybe not), that any intelligent discussion on here anymore turns into a sarcastic name calling, I’m right, you’re wrong, and you’re an idiot for thinking that way. It doesn’t help anything, and it gets us nowhere. No wonder there are so many problems in this country. I shake my head..life’s too damned short for this animosity. And we wonder why congress can’t get anything done…it’s an epidemic.

JV…have you ever in your life considered..that you may be wrong about some things?

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[JV]

Absolutely Jan. That’s why I’m discussing these topics on a forum with 80% of the people who have a different opinion than mine. It’s good for both sides.

Is dialogue furthered when somebody says, “he’s a Fox News right winger, don’t listen to him” or when we discuss these topics.

Curious why your question was directed at me and not toward dobro.

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[JanS]

well, I know that dobro will admit when he’s wrong…You’re new here, so I directed it at you. You come across as someone who thinks they have all the answers. I may be totally offbase, though. I am a lot :)

And since you’re new here, consider coming to the Feedback Lounge on Sunday. No need to bid on anything (it’s a fundraiser), but there will be quite a few from here present, I’m thinking, so it would be a chance to meet some face to face. I’ve already promised that there will be no talking politics that afternoon, though :D

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[redblack]

It doesn’t matter if the person commiting the crime is a Democrat or Republican, it matters that they are a criminal.

but it does matter if they’re rich or poor, doesn’t it?

there are two justice systems in the land of the free. and i can’t afford the better one.

there are also two tax systems. 90% of us don’t have the means to dodge our taxes – or the temerity to complain about them.

that’s not what the founding fathers intended.

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