Left/Right ending the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy/ the Buffet tax

[JoB]

kootchman..

far from envying those who have

i have compassion for those who do not.

there is a huge difference.

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[Smitty]

Job, then we agree.

People were making it sound like a cut in tax RATES reduced revenue, when in fact it did not. They increased. Here is the link again:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200

We agree then that it is the expenses, but that’s another battle.

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[JoB]

Smitty..

this is semantics you know.

there is no question that reducing tax rates reduces revenue..

even if total net revenue increases from previous years because of increased income.

it entirely avoids the question of whether it was wise to reduce taxes

thereby reducing revenue

and increase expenses

expecting increased income to make up the difference

the simplified answer to that is a resounding no.

not so simple after all, is it?

Sound fiscal management requires restoring tax rates taxes on those whose income has risen most

and cutting non essential expenses

keeping in mind that we are

we the people

not

we the corporations…

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[Smitty]

“there is no question that reducing tax rates reduces revenue..”

That is simply not true. PLEASE look at the link. Revenues increased post 2003 Bush tax cuts. They just did. Would they have increased MORE had they not been reduced? Maybe. Tough to prove, but total revenue DID INCREASE after RATES were reduced.

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[JoB]

Smitty

whether tax revenue would have increased more if the rates hadn’t been reduced is a surprisingly easy thing to answer..

the answer is yes.

it’s simple math. 20% of something is always more than 18% of something…

was the economic growth that increased revenues caused by the tax cuts?

that’s a difficult argument to make since the rising economic growth was part of the rationalization for the justification of the tax cuts to begin with..

if tax cuts had in fact created income which created revenue then we would have expected to see continued growth in our job producing industries…

where in fact, we didn’t…

anyplace other than in our financial sector and related service industries

which were temporarily artificially inflated due to rampant speculation and a lack of regulation.

It’s not hard to increase total revenue while lowering taxes while the economy is on an upswing.

unfortunately it isn’t sustainable.

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[Smitty]

“It’s not hard to increase total revenue while lowering taxes “

Thank you.

That was a lot harder than in needed to be.

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[JanS]

Smitty..the entire quote was “It’s not hard to increase total revenue while lowering taxes while the economy is on an upswing.

unfortunately it isn’t sustainable.”

(lol..just smacking your hand for cherry picking a quote to your own advantage – not fair..hehe)

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[Smitty]

I know, I know! I am surprised it took that long to call me out!

Hey, were you walking along cali this morning? I swear it was you and MIWS. I didn’t dare say anything! These interblogs are great for keeping my anonymity.

Take care

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[JoB]

Smitty…

editing my quotes to make your point won’t win you any friends …

thanks JanS

i was out and about doing good deeds

if it’s a good deed to hang out in the sun shooting the … with friends :)

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[JanS]

Smitty, if it was around Hotwire or there abouts, it could have been MIWS, but not me. I had seen him earlier at the NV pancake breakfast, but I drove there, drove away :)

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[redblack]

smitty: i did look at your link. i’ve seen it before. yes, revenues increased, but not from income taxes.

the rates went up under clinton, and revenues increased then, too. and budget deficits became surpluses.

the “fairness” group thinks whatever you have.. they are entitled to it… redblack has come up with his number.. anything over $250K…40% of it belongs to him.

that’s just income tax i’m talking about. i also advocate for a STET tax, increasing capital gains taxes, and closing tax havens in the bahamas. the party for the investor class is over. it’s time for them to clean up the mess they made.

i’ve said it before, kootch, and i’ll say it again. i don’t want what you or smitty or rich or JV has.

i’m going after the big fish with the tax attorneys and off-shore bank accounts. because in the grand scheme of things, you and i are equal.

but go ahead and make a-hole comments, call me a communist, or whatever the flavor of the week is. it doesn’t change the fact that you are advocating for tax policies that don’t affect you. in my opinion, that makes you a sycophant.

by the way, the top marginal rate under clinton was 39.5%.

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[kootchman]

JoB

“the simple truth is that federal revenue has not grown at the same pace as expenses…

Exactly. You said it perfectly. The expenses, which as of yet, no liberal has yet to confront, have outstripped the ability of the tax payers to sustain. Even your millionaires and billionaires. It won’t solve the problem.

One thing for sure… for the fifty per cent of those who pay no taxes.. you can rest assured they will not be generating new jobs. That you can bet on. A STET tax? OK then there is some long term thinking. Where do you want the finance and trading marke to shift to? Singapore? Hong Kong?.

Cutting the size of government …. not finding new ways to incentivize capital flight, that’s where the answer lies. redblack you remind me of the UAW.. so convinced that no demand was too extreme, nothing under the sun could affect their good fortunes. Until…. Japan invested in robotics and had lowered manufacturing costs. Reducing assembly costs to half that of the US auto worker. And.. they built a better car to boot. Not just a cheaper one. One thing for sure… you can’t tax capital that isn’t here. After the last 25 years… what will it take to convince you of the obvious? You have to be competitive in EVERY arena of endeavor… or there are billions of others who can take your opportunity? The “send” button is a mighty powerful tool.

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[JanS]

we need more revenue. Period. I have been taken to task for sometimes accepting payments from insurance companies that are less than what I charge for those who pay in cash. My answer is…I’d rather make whatever that amount is as opposed to making nothing for that hour. Every little bit is going to help. Just because something like the Buffett Rule won’t cure it all doesn’t mean it won’t help.

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[kootchman]

We need less government. Period We need fewer GS-18 workers who make 170K a year, their wives, families and friends on vacations at the government expense. Government workers who when asked by congress how they spend the taxpayers money, have to plead the fifth amendment. It’s the “buffet rule” load up the table with taxpayer dollars, and watch as they federal government dines like senior hour at the Golden Corral. They have so much money they can’t audit, control. or measure what or how they spend. A billion here, a billion there, couple hundred million over there. No revenue, no new taxes until the federal government takes a haircut. I don’t care where anymore, or how… if it has to be across the board because congress can’t make up national priorities… so be it. The Buffet rule… covers about 11 days of of the Obama budget IF the most optimistic projections are met…. and when has that ever happened? The sad thing is .. we are perfectly content to drop this debt turd right in the lap of every young person under 35 to pay off…. and ruin any chance of a decent standard of living. So JaN … what will you tax when as a matter or course… no one invests in domestic equity markets…. and they earn it all offshore? When they buy Apple stock .. on the Hang Seng? All that foundation of our wealth came from immigrants…. the same impulse to move fore greater opportunity and wealth still exists. Get your government under control and keep your financial base. Don’t and you will lose more of it.

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[kootchman]

smitty

“by the way, the top marginal rate under clinton was 39.5%.”

78,000 pages of tax code say no one paid it though! Or damn few did.

You need to look at what Clinton gave away to get the full picture…one thing… HE allowed the 15% capital gains tax rate for short and long term gain. It might make ya feel good… but slick WIlly was one effective smoke and mirrors guy… raise the income rates, and drop capital gains rates.. that’w what he did dude. And he cut the welfare roles by the millions… remember? The end of big government speech? Wanna see it on UTube?

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[JanS]

Kootch…I am truly sorry that I am not an economic advisor to anyone. I am truly sorry that , being simply me, I do not have the wherewithall to intelligently say where cuts should be made, what those cuts should be, how much they should be down to the penny. We all speculate. We are not budget writers for the US government. We don’t all have the exact numbers, and the correct information to decide anything. You THINK you have the answers, but do you really? I think not. If you did, they’d be beating a path to your door.

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[kootchman]

Fine…. can’t decide” Cut em all ….

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[JanS]

Luckily, neither you nor I get to decide….I think.

You do know that Mr. Romney wants to expand defense spending. And cut social programs even more. I’m even willing to bet he wants us to stay in Afghanistan.

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[kootchman]

We do get to decide though. Come November. Cut taxes and federal spending, ,,,and get some jobs back. For a guy who added 3 million jobs.. why do we have less workers employed now than 25 years ago? Defense is a social program. It’s the nations largest employer… after Wal Mart. I don;t know if he agrees with the Obama stay in Afghanistan program. But, do tell your congresses that when the new treaty comes up for a vote… the one his state department just negotiated to pay Afghanistan 4 billion a year…. just say no.

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[redblack]

We do get to decide though. Come November. Cut taxes and federal spending, ,,,and get some jobs back.

no one has raised taxes or federal spending since obama took office. even after TARP and porkulus, the deficits are the same as they were in bush’s last budget.

and no one has ever created a job in america because his taxes got cut. it has never happened. ever.

then there’s the fact that republicans actually wrote a bigger deficit than obama for the 2012 budget. fiscal hawks? hardly. willard romney isn’t going to cut a damned thing except his friends’ taxes – which are already low.

i’ll even wager that even if the economy picks up, that willard or any other republican – if elected – will ever write a budget surplus. so you go ahead and elect one and i’ll take the bet.

the truth of the matter is that republicans don’t care about government or its debt – or your kids – and the only reason that they get into politics is so that they can further dismantle it. they see it as an obstruction to the looting of the american consumer. their opinion is that if we want government, we’re going to pay for it – but they don’t owe a dime, and they sure as hell don’t owe us any jobs if we use our stupid government to demand that they not poison our environment.

you’re right, kootch: i am like the UAW, and no demand, at this point, is bold enough. they’ve had their party and now it’s time they cleaned up their mess. they’re the parasite that is threatening to kill the host. let them take their business to asian markets. i don’t give a crap.

but the money stays.

i’ll agree with you on cutting waste, fraud, and abuse, though – and it should start with congress. no more rule by millionaires and lobbyists. but no more cutting of wages and benefits for federal workers, and no more cutting of departmental services for citizens. you’re attacking the wrong people.

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[JoB]

kootch…

i don’t know how to break it to you..

but a good number of liberals protested when the expenses went up.

we spoke up against the boondoggle of unlimited homeland security funds.

we spoke out and demonstrated against the war in Iraq

we have spoken up against corporate subsidies

Those are all expenses kootch…

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[kootchman]

I am fine with no corporate subsidies. No windmills, ethanol. You may have spoken out.. but you voted in the great double down. The looting that is going on… is government looting us. The Post Office is a dog fart. It’s day is gone… but like the national helium reserve which outlived its usefulness , 90 years after it should have sunset. If the states do it.. get out of the game. We need three agencies to run and hire triplication of every service? November will tell.

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[kootchman]

If you add all the unemployed not currently receiving benefits… we have an effective rate of 141/2 per cent. Four more years of that?

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[redblack]

the post office? i’d like to see what happens to business in america without it. yeah. i wonder what fedex charges for a 12-ounce envelope…

besides, it’s mandated by the constitution.

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[JoB]

kootchman..

i voted for the best of two options in the great double down

and in spite of the fact that he is every bit the president that his brief Senatorial career said he would be..

i still got the better deal

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