Happy Kwanza!!!

[TheHouse]

Cait, it does celebrate a race. According to every website devoted to Kwanza it states it is an African American holiday.

And I definitely don’t feel alienated. I’ll take that as your way of checking out and conceding this debate.

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[bluebird]

Who feels alienated and how do you know what race people are?

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[JanS]

I see it as a race celebrating Kwanzaa, not the other way around….color me silly, I suppose. Does anyone else see that?

bluebird…many of us have met away from the forums…we know what race, mostly…

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[jamminj]

so a celebration that rejoices a heritage is NOT ok, but one that celebrates a religion is ok?? huh???

.

I see those that celebrate kwanzaa willing to celebrate with all races, but try being an atheist in a christian community… guess which is more accepting?

.

we can all rejoice in each others race… but organized religion will always divide. imo

.

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[Cait]

Oh yes. Of course. Me making a point worth its salt is conceding. Sure. Let’s go with that. I’d be willing to bet cold hard cash that if you felt “allowed” to celebrate Kwanzaa you wouldn’t have a problem with it.

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[JoB]

TheHouse..

Your rudeness barely exceeds your cultural ignorance.

You apparently don’t understand race as it refers to African Americans. They are referred to simply as African because we chose to wipe out references to the distinct ethnic groups they came from … calling them African is like calling all whites European…

We .. us white people.. also chose to wipe out as much evidence of their civilization as possible… easier to dismiss them as savages and treat them as a commodity that way.

but those days are behind us.. aren’t they?

Most of the holidays we celebrate are of European descent and as such actually do celebrate a “race” of people…

One from which all people of color are pretty much excluded…

and that’s called racism..

Kwanza celebrates an African Heritage that many african-americans are just now discovering… sorta like second and third generation irish making the pilgrimage “home”…

i personally am fascinated with my celtic roots… they were some pretty enlightened folks until the religious extremists in Rome wiped out their civilization.. but i digress.

I can’t understand why African Americans exploring the diversity of their culture should offend you when drinking green beer apparently doesn’t.

You don’t want to play… don’t play. but you don’t have to dis their game just because you don’t get it.

jamminj…

i agree that it is very difficult to be an athiest in our culture.. but I am guessing you find religious people far more offensive than they find you unless you try to convert them…

truth is.. no-one really enjoys being converted… whether we are talking religion or culture or sexuality.

Cait…

i will never understand being anything other than the 60 yr old white woman that i am.

However, being that has taught me more about prejudice than i ever wanted to learn.

****

Unfortunately this topic has been more divisive than inclusive today… a sad comment on a day dedicated to the discovery of community.

I guess there is some hope in the fact that we are talking… even if there doesn’t seem to be much listening going on.

perhaps tomorrow will be better.

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[Cait]

I made a handy chart for those who don’t want to wade through all the last 30-some posts.

http://alturl.com/bvbj *

*Not actual proportions due to text space.

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[austin]

LOL yes

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[TheHouse]

JoB, you stated “Afro American”, that is offensive. “African American” is not.

Cait, I know the admins of this site are just waiting for me to verbally abuse you but I won’t. We’ll just see if the same rules apply to you and your crew that apply to me. Feel free to post your e-mail address so that I can tell you how alienated I am and you can tell me how you’ll help me.

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[Cait]

Please refer to graph. Or think of a civil way to discuss things. My email inbox is clogged with enough garbage. I challenge you to have this conversation without resorting to things that will get you kicked off the blog. And if you get booted for anything else, I’ll cry foul too. Go ahead…

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[bluebird]

Cait, are you white? Why is this so important to you if you are? Why are you fighting for a holiday that did not originate in nor is celebrated in Africa? Is based on practices from Eastern Africa, when slaves and their descendants (culture, heritage, traditions) are from Western Africa? Was founded by a current Black Nationalist (against multiculturalism), who intended for it to be separatist holiday and incidentally was convicted of torturing black women.

Is only celebrated by 13% of the black population in America to begin with, and apparently a portion of those actually have no idea about the origins or purpose. They’re just taught it’s their ethnic history. I would hope that those who do research the truth, dismiss it for the fraud it is.

Just because Hallmark created a card doesn’t make it legitimate.

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[JanS]

oh, please. The man was convicted and did his time. He has 2 Ph. D’s, and has gone on to lead an exemplary life as a college professor. I’m not saying that I agree with what he did to put him into prison. But are none of us allowed to learn from our mistakes when we were younger? Are you saying that no one can ever be rehabilitated, and that their life should be judged by the past? Or is that something reserved for those special people who don’t totally agree with what you think is correct?

Bluebird…are you white? Why do you care so much about this particular celebration? Why are you so against what it stands for? Can black people in this country only have what you deem is PC ? If it wasn’t passed down from generation to generation, it’s a fraud? really? You’re quite sure slaves only came from West Africa?

http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofafricadiaspora.html

I’m asking again…is anything at all from the celebration of Kwanzaa hurting you? harmful to you? denigrating to you in any way? are we all just on here arguing for the sake of arguing? (<pout> you’re wrong, I’m right, and I will never give in – stamping foot) It sure does seem that way. If that’s not true, if there is a cogent reason for wanting Kwanzaa to disappear, I wish you’d tell me.

Do any of you recognize the term “Bon Odori”? It’s a celebration dance…the end of the “Obon” or “Bon” festival, which in the Japanese people’s culture is a celebration of their ancestry. We have a big Bon Odori celebration here in Seattle every summer…with carnival atmosphere, outdoor festival, other more “social” things. It’s a celebration that has evolved from it’s original meaning, which was to celebrate and pay respect to those in the family who have died before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Festival

Does anyone have a beef with that? No? can you please explain why or why not? Just askin’. A celebration of things has to start somewhere. Obon just happened to start a long time ago…Kwanzaa more recently…so what. I know that some of you will argue that they’re different. Please tell me why you think that…again, cogent reasoning.

It’s cold, it’s late, y’all have a great week…looking forward to some of your answers here. Discussions can be had without bashing…for some reason, it’s difficult on here. Sigh.

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[bluebird]

I think you’re arguing, and your remarks are a little too angry and defensive for me to have a discussion. Nite all. Happy holidays.

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[JanS]

smiling here….angry and defensive? I only asked what you asked of Cait. Sorry you feel that way because I would like to hear what you have to say. But…that’s a good copout…thanks :)

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[JoB]

TheHouse…

I suspect African Americans don’t give a s..t what i call them as long as i treat them as human beings with a right to create whatever kind of cultural celebration they choose.

Language isn’t the point.. respect is.

***

moving on.. thanks to Diane…

Ujima (oo-GEE-mah) Collective Work and Responsibility reminds us of our obligation to the past, present and future, and that we have a role to play in the community, society, and world.

I really get the need for this. We as a society are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again unless we understand what went wrong and take responsibility for changing it.

And this has nothing to do with socialism or wiping society’s arse… it means taking personal responsibility for respecting those around you and treating them as you would want to be treated..

That’s basic Christian stuff for me… but it doesn’t have to come from religion.

You can’t understand who you are unless you understand where you came from… and it is easier to comprehend the dignity of other people if you make an attempt to understand where they came from.

One of the benefits of the women’s movement is that there is now an abundance of biographical information that includes letters from women who struggled with the same issues that confront me today.. even though they lived in another century. The same thing is occurring in black literature… and in english translations of nearly every cultural tradition existing in these united states. If you can’t listen, you can read.

The longer i live, the more i realize that respecting others begins with respecting yourself.. and personal respect is based on taking responsibility for the way you interact with your community.

Some of you will think that funny coming from a curmudgeon like me.. but i care deeply about my community and have great respect for those who care enough to make a difference.. even when i don’t agree with their methods.

***

Diane…

I want to thank you for choosing to care enough about us to educate… and for starting this discussion… hopefully something of value will come from it.

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[JoB]

BTW..

this whole race thing is vastly over-rated…

even wikipedia states that their post may be too long to read and navigate comfortably :)

but it boils down to this.. definitions of race vary with time and culture and are not substantiated by DNA evidence…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings)

I consider myself very lucky to have been born white in a society that values light skin… the color of your skin does determine advantages.

i would have had even more advantages if i had been born male … but i doubt i would have learned as much ;->

Advantage increases your financial and social opportunities, but narrows your experience.

Our national Xenophobia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

is well on it’s way to one of those demographic adjustments that will ultimately redefine race…

probably not in my lifetime.. but nevertheless.. the latino population in this country will soon exceed those who classify themselves as white.

The other day i listened to an NPR program based on the results of a work ethic study… showing latinos have a greater work ethic than whites :)

the times they are a changing…

i’m thinking this community idea.. where one is valued on their contributions instead of their color.. will be looking better to more people soon:)

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[Duckitude]

Ummm… amazing how Diane’s simple celebratory post went down this long and winding road. Also, rather interesting (scratches beard… aha…)

I have not much to add, but I will say this, at the very minimum, Kwanzaa stands for the quest for equality. Equality, although maybe not as racially divisive as it used to be, is still a very laudable goal. If you think we live in a democracy, well, think again. It’s more or less a corporate oligarchy at this point in history. Any celebration that has a component of bringing more power to “the people” is fine with me.

For my ducky take on Kwanzaa, visit http://www.duckiesrule.com/home.htm

Happy New Year!

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[bluebird]

Not everyone uses the forums just to incessantly advertise their calendars. They are generally a place for discussion, this being one of the more interesting and civil.

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[Cait]

Bluebird, not that I think my race has anything to do with the discussion at hand but refer to the graph for the answer to all your questions.

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[JoB]

bluebird..

psst..

there is other pretty interesting content on duckitudes website…

but don’t tell anyone..

they might miss the calendars.

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[TheHouse]

Interesting how a “personal attack” from Cait on me has been allowed to stay up on this site for 18 hours (post #32) and I even reported it (the first time ever).

And there aren’t any double standards on this site? Ha!

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[Cait]

You might have to be a little more specific about that “personal attack”. I don’t see it. We’ve both kept it real civil thus far. I’m proud of us, TheHouse!

Is your issue with the fact that in my opinion you are feeling alienated. It is my opinion that you sound that way. And sorry I used the “b word” as a verb where I could have used the word “complain” but toe-may-to, to-mah-toe. I certainly am not calling YOU a “b-word.”

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[bluebird]

The chart is ridiculous and explains nothing other than to justify one person’s immature opinion of another.

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[JanS]

wow, bluebird, you just don’t like much of anyone on here, do you? Humor is a good thing, and I saw the chart as humor. But what do I know. My opinion doesn’t really count for much, now, does it?

Sigh

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[Trisket]

Cait – your little chart is flawed. Perhaps if you go back and study it you may find the error.

Also, in the future please show your work.

oh, and I agree with bluebird.. your chart is ridiculous.

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[Author]

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