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March 19, 2008 at 4:50 pm #617392
JoBParticipantWhy isn’t Obama supporting a Michigan revote?
March 19, 2008 at 6:15 pm #617393
AnonymousInactiveSorry, Jan, that it has taken me so long to respond. I do love what JoB posted regarding Obama and his pastor.
I think it is TOTALLY inaccurate to compare what Ferraro said with what Wright said.
Jeremiah Wright hates America. He is mad at America and he seems to blame America for EVERYTHING!
Imagine, for a moment, that you have an extremely close family friend who has been in your life for over two decades. It is safe to assume that you know a lot about this close friend. You know exactly how this friend thinks and feels about almost everything (after all, 25 years is a very long time to really get to know someone).
Now imagine that this really close friend of yours has opinions and beliefs that offend and
repulse you. You completely disagree with everything this close friend thinks. Are you still really close friends? Are you going to keep this person in your life and (remember, this person’s thoughts and opinions horrify you) go to this person for advice?
What I’m getting at is this: Obama has to have some of those same opinions and feelings of America as Wright. You would not keep someone in your life (and so close to you) who’s opinions, thoughts, feelings repulsed or horrified you.
So those are the questions this whole situation raises for me. I believe Obama shares, at least somewhat, the same viewpoints as his pastor. It has already peaked through a little bit in what Michelle Obama stated.
No, I would prefer my President not start out his term hating and blaming America.
March 19, 2008 at 6:32 pm #617394
JoBParticipantJeremiah Wright doesn’t hate America New Resident.. he hates what America has done to black people… he is not so much anti America as he is pro black…
just as i am not so much anti men’s rights as i am pro women’s rights…
he wants black people to get riled up and support one of their own.. because Obama has spent the last 20 years making himself one of their own…
does that make his comments any less racist? no.. it doesn’t.
but it doesn’t make him anti american either… (and therefore an enemy of the state.. and therefore a terrorist) … bad slippery slope and no real reason to go down it…
March 19, 2008 at 6:38 pm #617395
AnonymousInactiveNewRes, you have a point about his choice to keep him in his life. One of my family’s *lesser* offenses was to tell me in all seriousness, that I am possessed by satan. This based on my relationship, beliefs and opinions. It’s been more than a decade since I’ve spoken to any of them and I would be horrified and embarrassed if anyone every associated me with them.
March 19, 2008 at 6:48 pm #617396
KayleighMemberYes, I’m quite sure Obama has chosen a life in public service because, deep down, he hates America, hates white people, and wants to blow stuff up (because he’s also a Muslim in disguise.) Within days of being president, he will fire all the white people in charge and replace them with Angry Black People and Terrorists. This is the only thing I can conclude that people are afraid of. Am I missing anything?
I’m wondering when Republicans (and apprently a few others) will have the insight to realize when their worst instincts (fear, bigotry, selfishness) are being pandered to, and then the grace to be embarrassed that they were manipulated that way.
I have a feeling I’m going to be waiting a long time. Because Obama has tried very hard to appeal to our better instincts, and look what he’s given in return.
March 19, 2008 at 6:58 pm #617397
JoBParticipantjt..
my grandkids are worried about me because they are sure that i am not going to heaven and they want me to… oh well… hopefully they will grow out of it.
i am sorry your family hasn’t because love isn’t a subtext in the new testament… of course, i am assuming they actually believe in the new testement:)
my grandbabies belong to a charismatic church which sees their view as right and everyone else’s as wrong…
this is what worries me about Obama… not his bible thumping slightly bigoted pastor… but his church.. which is clearly a charismatic church … and because his views during campaigning appear to be pretty one sided… tolerance for those he believes in and intolerance for those he doesn’t.
Aha.. a moment of clarity… Obama’s intolerance of others in spite of the rhetoric in his speeches.. which he uses to define the parameters of tolerance.. is what really bothers me.
his intolerance shows up in a lot of ways…
Hillary’s distrust bothers me… exemplified in her mistrust of the press. Justified or not.. it echos of tricky dick… and i think that is one thing that concerns some people. They don’t trust her because she is not seen to trust them ….
which is worse.. intolerance or mistrust?
in my experience, mistrust can be turned around faster than intolerance… intollerance simply hides.
come to think of it, tricky dick had immense amounts of both:)
March 19, 2008 at 7:11 pm #617398
AnonymousInactiveJT – Not only is he choosing to keep his pastor in his life, he seeks his advice and spiritual guidance. Shame you haven’t spoken with your family. You obviously stood up for yourself and made the decision to remove your family from your life and I’m sure that wasn’t an easy chose to make. It does, however, make you courageous.
JoB – Hating America and hating what America has done to black people is a very fine line. I completely understand your point, but it is, to me anyways, very close to one and the same.
Kayleigh – You seem to take what people say and reduce it to insignificant assumptions. Obviously I am not so ignorant to believe that Obama, if he were to make it the White House, would fire all white people and blow everything up. You also throw the word “bigot” around a lot, which to me is interesting seeing as Jeremiah Wright is the epitome of “bigot”.
What has Obama been given in return? He needs to be accountable of the choices he has made in his life. Are you implying that everyone is being too hard on Obama? Let’s remember that his pastor is still very much in his life, yet Ferraro had to resign. Seems to me Obama is getting off a little easy. He absolutely needed to address the recent events that have taken place. He also needed to denounce Jeremiah Wright, which he failed to do. Shouldn’t he be held to the same standard as every other candidate in this race? If not, then why?
March 19, 2008 at 7:33 pm #617399
KayleighMemberThen what are you afraid of, NewResident? If Obama secretly believes these things said in the heat of a sermon, despite repudiating them several times, (and I don’t for a second think he does, but assuming)….
then what?
Because what I *think* it means for a lot of people is that it confirms their secret bigoted thoughts or fears about black people and by extension, about Obama. That’s what I think.
And the “who you associate with = who you are” thing is so McCarthy-esque, I can’t believe people still buy it.
My parents say things I disagree with strongly, and I won’t “repudiate” them or disown them. I would, however, publicly and respectfully disagree.
March 19, 2008 at 7:47 pm #617400
charlabobParticipantThe reason Obama doesn’t support a revote in Michigan (and the reason Hillary does) is because such a revote would be loaded AGAINST Obama. Not level — not fair — antiObama. (I don’t expect this to change JoB’s mind — it’s mostly for the lurkers :-)
1. Hillary was the only person on the primary ballot; everyone else withdrew or didn’t sign up, as they were asked to do. (That’s called playing by the rules.)
2. The Michigan Dem party told their voters that the primary and the vote wouldn’t count
3. Ergo, many Obama and Edwards voters switched their party to vote in the Republican primary (against someone or other)
4. Now, if there is a revote, no one can vote who voted Republican in the last “election” (you know, that pseudo sham election).
5. Therefore, many Obama and Edwards voters won’t be able to vote their choice and (duh, what a surprise) the Clinton Machine will win.
I’m pretty close to falling off another fence and becoming a “If that woman gets nominated, I won’t vote” voter. As someone on NPR said this morning, the democrats aren’t used to being the target of the Clinton Machine.
March 19, 2008 at 7:50 pm #617401
charlabobParticipantJoB, I’d like to see some concrete proved examples of this — then we can discuss whether we all agree about what constitutes intolerance. To throw in this line … isn’t like you :-)
his intolerance shows up in a lot of ways…
March 19, 2008 at 11:59 pm #617402
JoBParticipantkayleigh…
it seems to me that where the right wing media is concerned .. you have a double standard…
When it is Hillary … you are not so stupid as to buy into the crap… even tho you have been hearing it for most of your adult life.. if not all of it.
when it is Obama.. we are the targets of the right wing media.. buying their line…
You believe it so strongly as to accuse us of the worst kind of bigotry.
Big double standard!
I am pretty sure i am not buying into secret fears about black people. But i can see how thinking that would make you feel better.
That doesn’t make it true… i can assure you i am not a bigot and i am getting tired of repeating that.
It might surprise you to learn that I was actually actively involved in the process of trying to integrate our society… most likely before you were born. i have lived in their neighborhoods… have volunteered in their social programs.. have attended their churches… have had serious relationships with black men and women … have lived what I believe…
I am pretty sure i am not buying into any racial fears… if i was, i think they might have surfaced long ago when i lived in one of the neighborhoods hit by riots in 1969 and was nearly killed for being a white pregnant chick… in spite of the fact that half the men on my porch that night knew all about the work i was doing in their community… work i continued to do.
I have had a lot of exposure to charismatic black men who chose politics as their way to make a mark in the world. One of those young men saved my life that night. Had he chosen to stay in politics.. i would vote for him without hesitation tomorrow.
I am not buying into fears of black men..
I am buying into my own personal fears about this black man.
March 20, 2008 at 12:50 am #617403
KayleighMemberJo, pray tell me what your fears are about Obama. I haven’t heard any from anyone that make any sense. I worry not at all about his experience, his religion, his imaginary repressed anger and hatred, nor his loyalty to the party.
In that speech yesterday, he said he understood both the pastor’s anger and white anger, but that he thought them both perhaps misplaced and not the solution. The insight and courage in that speech–and the wisdom–are startling, if you really listen.
How many times have we heard politicians talk about race but essentially use it to pander to either side, talk in extremes and shame/blame, and fail to create any meaningful understanding? He called for harmony and for solutions that work for *all* Americans. Beyond cool!
And yesterday, he showed himself to be a statesman. He made Hillary look like the politician that she has regrettably become (though I suspect she wasn’t always that way). I’ve had enough of politicians…I want a statesman, like we had in the American past. Like FDR. Like RFK.
He’s a rare breed and a gem that the party would be foolish not to let shine.
March 20, 2008 at 1:34 am #617404
AnonymousInactiveKayleigh – You are mistaken in assuming that because I don’t want Obama to be our next President, I am “scared” of a black man becoming President.
I am not a bigot, I don’t secretly hate black people. I just, very strongly, don’t like Obama or what he stands for (and remember, after all, I am Republican).
And if Obama “secretly believes these things said in the heat of a sermon”, then we should all be scared. To have that much blame, distrust and hatred of your country will not serve well if you are going to try and run it.
It’s not enough for me that Obama laughed off his pastor as a “crazy uncle”. Especially after he called for Ferraro to resign. That makes him a hypocrite. He believes the things his pastor said. I would have more respect for him if he were to admit that.
March 20, 2008 at 1:57 am #617405
JoBParticipantKayleigh..
i didn’t hear a statesman.. i heard a very shrewd politician trying to sound like a statesman.
and maybe his speech.. which by the way essentially excuses his pastor’s rhetoric and makes his campaign the cure for that sort of America coming together… will save his campaign. It was great misdirection.
but let’s just give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was 100% for real in that speech… and that he is earnestly seeking a way to create solutions…
then i would ask…
if he has been listening to that kind of rhetoric… which he genuinely feels is misguided… for 20 years…. and it has gotten so out of hand that it surfaced in this campaign.. because one of those sermons was directly from this campaign… why hasn’t he been able to accomplish within his own church what he promises for America?
If he is the answer.. why wasn’t he the answer for his own church?
He is certainly a symbol… of many different things to many different people…
but someone who has the kind of leadership skills he claims ought to have made more of a difference in his own church… ought to have had a moderating effect on his pastor…
It doesn’t appear that he did…
That is just one of my fears where Barak Obama is concerned.
Another is his experience.
Go to the GoHillary thread and follow the link i put there to the videos from the flag commanders on why they think Hillary has more experience and would make a better commander in chief… and then go to Youtube and ask yourself why the pro Hillary videos from that group are 10… to 1 for Obama.
Experience is a real issue here…
i could go on.. but hubby is home and it’s library night…
i will check in when i get back.
March 20, 2008 at 2:51 am #617406
JanSParticipantNew Res…”IF Obama believes”…that’s one hell of a big assumption on your part. And he has said that the things that Rev. Wright said are despicable, and unpatriotic and un-American. What words would you like him to say? I don’t think it matters, because I don’t think you’d believe him if he even said he would never, ever speak to the man again…just my opinion, of course. Rev. Wright is not running for president, nor was he a campaign advisor. Calling for Geraldine Ferraro’s resignation was hypocritical how?
March 20, 2008 at 2:52 am #617407
AnonymousInactiveJoB – Bravo!!!
March 20, 2008 at 2:53 am #617408
AnonymousInactiveJanS – Please refer to JoB’s post.
March 20, 2008 at 2:58 am #617409
JanSParticipantand for what it’s worth…to everyone…do you all really believe that Rev. Wright got up in that pulpit and preached those despicable things every Sunday for 20 years? Of course not…but the people who put these videos out on the internet want you to believe that…and it seems, in my opinion, that you may be buying into that.
And…as an aside…being first lady is NOT political experience, elsewise we might have had Pres. Barbara Bush, Pres. Pat Nixon, Pres. Laura Bush, Pres.Rosalynn Carter…etc.etc….a very simplistic view, I’m sure will be pointed out to me, but, my view anyway…
March 20, 2008 at 3:02 am #617410
JanSParticipantyou see, New Res…I give Mr. Obama the benefit of the doubt, just as I give Mrs. Clinton the benefit of the doubt (and gave her the benefit of the doubt years ago when the Clinton’s were being investigated for quite a few seemingly “illegal” things)….
the man that I will not give the benefit of the doubt to is John McCain. And he may very well be our next President if the Dems go gleefully down the path they’re on. That is the scariest thing of all to me….whatever else is said on here.
March 20, 2008 at 3:05 am #617411
JanSParticipantand, JoB, to me he was 100% real in that speech…just as Hillary is 100% real in her speeches….you would ask me to believe that, I’m sure. I’m not asking you to embrace him, although if he ends up being the candidate, I know you’ll work for him. I’m asking that you not buy into the “fear” that some would like you to buy into…think about it.
March 20, 2008 at 3:15 am #617412
TheHouseMemberKayleigh, why do you assume that because a person disagrees with someone that fear is the underlying factor?
The candidate that you support is a hypocrite and the two most influential people in his life (wife and pastor)have made Anti-American comments in the past few months.
Open your eyes.
March 20, 2008 at 3:31 am #617413
JoBParticipantJanS…
now, i read every link you guys send me.. but it’s obvious you did not go to the gohillary thread and read the links to the flag commanders and why they believe she has experience…
Obviously there can be more to being first lady than sharing the president’s bed… and she took every opportunity to make that experience more..
Jan.. you’re a growed up. i expected more than the first lady remark form you….
need chocolate?
March 20, 2008 at 3:35 am #617414
JoBParticipantJanS.. the person who put those sermons out on the internet was reverend wright… and yes.. he did preach those sermons off and on for the last 20 years.. because i heard about him a long time ago.
i am not sure if it was his church i attended once while i was in chicago.. in my very distant past.. or not. i think it was…
March 20, 2008 at 3:46 am #617415
JoBParticipanthouse..
i wouldn’t go so far as to call him a hypocrite..
i think he is as blind to his own prejudice as you may be to yours…
I believe that type of rhetoric has simply become so commonplace to him that he doesn’t even see it as out of the ordinary… much like the hillary bashing that has been consistent for nearly two decades…
and i have to say again that the remarks in the context of a black charismatic church aren’t that out of line…
Angry at the system.. yes. Angry at individuals… no.. with the possible exception of Hillary for standing in Obama’s way…
they have a right to be angry house. did you not listen to the news tonight? the NAACP is in town to investigate the behavior of our local police force when they pull over blacks… and it’s not just some hype. prejudice is alive and well in America. We just call it stereotyping now.
and i would remind you that he doesn’t have a lock on the type of comments you are calling anti-American. Many of the white televised pastors have made some real doozies….
And they’re good republicans:)
March 20, 2008 at 3:53 am #617416
JanSParticipantnow that I can agree with, JoB…what you just said…to House…and about the white charismatic leaders…but no one is bringing them up, no one is questioning the relationships (and influence) that some of them have with this or the other candidate…why is that?
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