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January 22, 2009 at 7:23 am #589544
HMC RichParticipantYesterday and today have been historic days. Change can be good. I believe our New President is an honorable man. As expected he is already pushing his agenda and making changes he feels are important. Every president does this. I enjoyed meeting a few of you at Full Tilt. My son loved it.
There are a couple of issues that I would like discuss. Remember, not everyone voted for President Obama and there are different views.
First, Read this Editorial from the Denver Post and let me know what you think. http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_11505879
January 22, 2009 at 7:55 am #655778
JanSParticipantHi…thanks for that..it’s an interesting article, one that I’ll have to read again when I’m not brain dead tired :) But I will say this…the title of the article hit me first, as I and the woman I shared my massage office space with when we invaded Iraq had one of the first neighborhood signs that said “No Iraq War”…yes, dissenters we were, and less patriotic we were considered…so it’s a question that really gets to me, now that the shoe is sliding over to the other foot.
But the rest of the article I will think about, see how I feel about it. For myself personally, I do not “worship” Pres. Obama…and I will wait and see what his “agenda” will truly be, how it will affect our country (and me). I will not pre-judge him, as that’s not my job. He has only been the prez for 36 hours, maybe….so we all need to keep an open mind, and an open heart. We definitely need something to change in this country…we can’t abide the “same ol’ same’ol of the last 8 years (16 if that’s how you feel)…
It’ll be interesting to see what others think about this. I think it will make for a very interesting discussion…thanks for starting it.
January 22, 2009 at 3:46 pm #655779
beachdrivegirlParticipantHMC Rich,
Thank you very much for your post as well as the article. I love the way you are so tactful with those with opposing views. It is so depressing when people cant respectuflly address another political party other than their own with tact. :):)
Anyhow, I did have time to read the article and over all was quite impressed. The author left me many things to ponder. I didnt have an answer to the title of his article “Is dissent still patriotic?” when I first got done. In the back of my mind i think yes, yes it is, but b/c of the article and my thought procsess I always tend to second guess myself. However, i then went on to read some of the comments in regards to the article. And one of the comments really hit home for me:”The founding fathers were dissenters, remember that.” This quote comes from Design303 and really hit home for me. This was just the line that stuck out to me the most. I look forward to pondering the other questions the article posed to me all day. i really enjoyed everything in the article over all and look forward to hearing others responses.
January 22, 2009 at 4:31 pm #655780
KenParticipantHunter responds to a similar “waaaaah” from the pundits and “reporters” who allowed the equalization of fact and fantasy to infect our news media.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/1/22/10302/5697/617/686885
Dissent is patriotic and conservatives can be useful in the political process, but an informed electorate should not be subject to spin, fantasy, faith and unsupported BS as if it were fact.
If we start seeing religious conservatives advocating the abolition of divorce, shellfish and usury, I will no longer call them hypocrites.
If the fiscal conservatives start advocating reducing the “defense” budget to the point where it only equals the rest of the planets “defense” spending combined it would be real fiscal conservatism. But if we instead see the resurrection of the long lost terms “deficit spending” and “balance of trade” as if they had always been concerned with the manufacturing base of the country they pretend to love, then we should call them out as hypocrites as well.
Cultural conservatives should cherish the rights the constitution guarantees to them and stop trying to block or abolish those same rights to their fellow citizens.
I am certain President Obama will find out the hard way that there is no point in trying to negotiate in good faith with those who do not believe in compromise in the first place.
Those who believe faith trumps science, free markets are only free for the wealthy and corporations, and that their version of “morals” should be enforced on everyone else, are welcome to continue to try to convince the electorate that their version of reality is the best, but the last eight years have dug a wide and deep hole in that theory and the leaders of the right have not yet quit digging.
If you have a grip on reality, however tenuous, and identify yourself as a republican or a conservative, then start taking back your party and wrest the shovel away from the fools.
Then we can work out a way we can all prosper and our children can have the same chance to succeed.
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
–Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), British philosopher, mathematician. Sceptical Essays, “Freedom in Society” (1928).
January 22, 2009 at 5:21 pm #655781
JoBParticipantHMCRich…
There was nothing stopping republican dissenters from lining the parade route or peppering the capitol with protesters at the inauguration of this president… after all.. that’s what Bush saw during his inaugurations…
Wouldn’t it be better to wait until actual dissent is denied before claiming it’s impending death?
this article is just more of the same.. the politics of fear.. now we are supposed to fear that this president will curtail our right to dissent… in spite of all evidence to the contrary…
The myth that the jubilation shown at the election of this President is just some kind of cult behavior is one that was created in the media.
I will grant that there are some people who are so eager to touch his hem that they are deaf to his message… but that isn’t true for the majority.
President Obama didn’t give the usual inspirational speech as his inaugural address… he didn’t need to rally the troops…
while he had the world’s attention, he talked about the work that needs to be done to restore this nation.. and the world we live in… to health… and if the people who stood for hours to listen to him are any indication… the world listened.
President Obama can do wrong… and had already done so before he took office as far as some of his supporters were concerned…
The cult of blind acceptance is not the democratic way… and i speak of both the people of our nation and the party when i say that…
I think the days of blind acceptance masquerading as patriotism are over. At least, i sincerely hope they are over.
I, for one, find it refreshing that this President actually acknowledges that we have major problems and that it isn’t going to be easy to find solutions.
I find it refreshing that he doesn’t tell us he is going to fix everything for us.. we are going to have to actually engage in the process for any recovery to work.
I find it refreshing that he talks about the legacy this will leave for our children and grandchildren… an improved America.. built on a solid base.
Our economy is currently built on consumerism… and we have encouraged the world to follow in our footsteps…
any street vendor will tell you that when those who will spend their money don’t have any.. there are no sales…
consumerism by itself… without manufacturing driving wages.. is a ponzi scheme. it only works as long as there is a continual stream of money to fund consumerism.
Unemployment in Washington is careening towards the national average of 7.2% .. and the hope of economists is that it doesn’t exceed 10%. Both Boeing and Microsoft have announced substantial layoffs… and all of those are living wage jobs… their loss will have a trickle down effect on businesses who relied on that income and that in turn will create more job loss.
Those same economists say that wage “correction” will be necessary to stabilize the economy.. and they aren’t talking about the excessive wages paid to those in upper management.
There are some pretty substantial things that are going to have to change… and those changes aren’t going to be comfortable for anyone.
As someone who has faced adversity more than once, i acknowledge that it is possible to survive adversity without rolling up your sleeves and doing some hard work..
but it is unlikely that any of us will thrive in the process unless we do so.
It’s your choice..
allow yourself to be distracted by the pundits or pay attention to the heads up our President just gave us…
and start figuring out how to build the kind of community that will ensure survival for your family.
In spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary..
there are few of us these days who live a totally self sustaining life… it really does take a village to survive… it always did.
January 22, 2009 at 6:01 pm #655782
PDieterParticipantI think the straw man argument lives on
“There must be a subversive minority out there that still believes the United States — even with its imperfections and sporadic recessions — is, in context, still a wildly prosperous and free country worth preserving.”
– meaning we still “hate america” and are destroying it?
“Some of you must still believe that politicians are meant to serve rather than be worshiped.”
– So if I disagree; I “worship” Obama?
Overall I find the article very sophomoric in the false dichotomies and straw man “facts”, two tactics that have been soundly rejected this election cycle. But I have no doubt many who can’t step up and write thoughtfully and honestly will continue to utilize these tactics to the praise of readers who cling to ignorant perceptions of what is going on in the world around them.
People don’t have to agree with me but they do have to debate with honesty and intelligence to warrant my participation.
January 22, 2009 at 6:03 pm #655783
JoBParticipantJanuary 22, 2009 at 6:16 pm #655784
charlabobParticipantI saw at least two dissenters on the parade route — carrying signs taller than themselves — saying “Obama is the AntiChrist.” Yup. That’s reasoned discourse. (Actually one of their leaders, James Dodson, solemnly informed them last spring that Obama was NOT the AntiChrist — a big load off all our minds.)
January 22, 2009 at 7:37 pm #655785
JoBParticipantcharlabob…
well there you go.. they prove dissent is still alive and well..
if you saw them, i presume they weren’t prevented from protesting by raging mobs of crazed Obama zealots…
there must have been at least a couple of those at the inauguration too ;~>
January 23, 2009 at 7:21 am #655786
ellenaterMemberThe one and only reason I trust Obama is that he throws responsibility back on us and is not trying to be our savior. As far as others worshipping him goes, you need to understand that at least half of the country have felt REALLY hopeless for a long time. They are in the honeymoon period. It will end when Obama has his first flub. But the man really has the stuff and people like that. I’m just happy I can go off my antidepresants now.
January 23, 2009 at 4:56 pm #655787
JoBParticipantEllenator…
It’s just a glimmer of hope for some..
but any hope sure beats the alternative.
January 23, 2009 at 5:00 pm #655788
RainyDay1235MemberDissent is most certainly patriotic. Patriotism was never repugnant to the “left”, and how arrogant for him to say so. If we didn’t care about your country – many would sit back, let the loudest voices always have their way, not vote and not question authority. Leaders are human. They are fallible. They work for us. They need to be held accountable for every decision.
George Bush was under scrutiny for sure, although I think his cabinet helped him keep many things hidden from the public. He was arrogant, surrounded by YES men, and stubborn in his beliefs. Obama has promised transparency, and so far I am pleased with what I’ve seen. He is not the second coming. He is a man, who has surrounded himself with intelligent, diverse, NOT all like-minded individuals, who will challenge him and make him question and plan every move carefully. A leader.
“Remaking a nation” does not mean our country is not worth preserving, it just means it needs fixing – and fast. Michelle said, “Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed.” And thank goodness for that. If we hadn’t kept our heads in the sand for this long (through choice, ignorance or lies) we might never have even begun to dig ourselves out of this political nightmare. It will be a joy to not be hated among nations.
May we forever be ALLOWED BY LAW to burn the American flag, so that it continues to stand for freedom! :)
January 23, 2009 at 7:22 pm #655789
ellenaterMemberIAWTC!
January 23, 2009 at 7:24 pm #655790
JoBParticipant|/
January 24, 2009 at 9:07 am #655791
HMC RichParticipantIs it not great that we have the ability to differ in our views? “The legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions.” –Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
An observation. One or two of you are essentially saying you are smarter or better in shelling out your opinions in political debate, right? That your own opinion carries more weight than someone not of your political view or intellectual level? I find your posts interestingly condescending if not a bit arrogant. Bravo!
You can burn all the flags you want if that will make you feel better. You are free to burn what you want as long as it isn’t in the City limits of Seattle, or on my property.
I ask you, which nations hate us so much? I do believe we have aggravated various islamic nations and some tyrannical or theocratic nations like Iran and Venezuela. In fact I see so many people wanting to still come here and live. I did meet people oversees who hated Bush. I can understand them being nervous about imperialism. I also know it is terrorist and terrorist states that are our major enemies.
On a different note, President Obama has been trying to surround himself with like minded people. The cynical view: Let’s see – Geithner (tax evader), Holder (pardons terrorists, arms dealers and considers the fairness doctrine a good thing), Richardson (at least he pulled out), Hillary’s husband’s Bills Foundation (she being chief diplomat for the US and husband still will take foreign money – even Dick Cheney sold or step down from conflict of interest dealings.) Robert Reich’s delivery of the “much needed stimulus” is affirmative action for minorities and underprivileged workers. I hear the rhetoric that the Stimulus is needed right now, many of the items will take years to implement and excludes certain people who could make the projects go more quickly. From a conservative point of view, this forces more people to depend on the government and less on market forces. Hmmmm.
Yes, the bar is set low and we know that many mistakes will be made by our new President since he has so little experience. It is patriotic to pay taxes and to give him more time since we are in such a mess. I didn’t hear those complaints when Reagan took over after Carter. I heard that Nuclear Holocaust was around the corner. I heard from Carter that America was waning. I remember double-digit inflation, high unemployment and a prime interest rate of 21.5 percent. The late 70’s and very early 80’s were much worse than now. And, that darn Civil Reinvestment Act came about around that time. Funny how that thing spiraled out of control.
That is not to say things might not get worse because they may. I believe Obama is essentially clear from the root causes of this recession. The question is… will he cure it, slightly improve it or make it worse. I believe Bush made it worse by “abandoning the free market”. I believe our congress and preceding Presidents could have avoided our current debacle.
I am disgusted when everyone had to get the first part of the 700 billion dollar bailout passed and the likes of Barney Frank (and most of the senators from both sides of the aisle) are now complaining that it didn’t work even though they are the ones who passed it and now they want more. Why do these idiots always seem to panic and then pass bad bills. I’ve said it before. Hats off to Jim McDermott for voting NO.
If we are now a consumerism nation, then we will be buying substandard items with limited shelf life due to our selfishness. We need to purchase more junk because of inferior quality. Our landfills are filling up more rapidly due to this nonsense. Recycling is certainly needed because of this. We are just drones falling into the marketing and unethical capitalists traps. I do not like that type of system and I would prefer it change. Why not build something that lasts?
As stated in a different post, I also find it interesting that when the economy and businesses downsize, those effects will trickle down and affect other businesses. Welcome back Voodoo economics. Nice to see ya haven’t quite vanished. I thought that didn’t work from what certain people have been saying but when things are bad it is OK?
Finally, I heard the other day that there are now more government jobs than manufacturing jobs. That changes the countries dynamic dramatically. The founding fathers spoke of limited government. If this is true we have a big problem ahead of us. That is one reason for dissent. The federal government should be accountable to the states and the people and not the other way around. Kayleigh2 in another post said some of us “just don’t get it”, She is right and I don’t want it.
January 24, 2009 at 7:27 pm #655792
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
LOL… the corruption list you bandied about was priceless… especially if you believe Sarah Palin is the new face of the republican party…
if this was the McCain administration.. how do you think she would appear on that list of yours? Or John himself, for that matter?????
If we’re going to parry. lets do it with something real:)
Maybe we should start with the bailout money.. which was managed by the Bush administration… without the oversight mandated by congress and which has been used to fund bonuses, management retreats and remodeling… and that’s just what has been reported.
The truth is that we don’t know any more about what happened to the money that has already been released than we do about what happened to the huge infusions of cash from the United States government that disappeared into Iraq.. or how the huge amounts of money we spent on independent contractors in Iraq was ultimately spent.. though we have some pretty fair indications that it didn’t buy us the quality infrastructure we were paying for.
This is one heck of a mess and it wasn’t created on a democratic watch. Yes, the democrats have been in majority in congress for a couple of years, but the stunts pulled over cabinet confirmations prove that republicans still have plenty of juice in Washington and are still using it effectively to delay and obstruct… regardless of the state of our union.
are you surprised that there are now more government jobs than manufacturing jobs? Didn’t you know what a bang up job President Bush did of increasing the government payroll while he was president… as contrasted with Al Gore’s work in the last administration to streamline government agencies?
The largest problem i have as a taxpayer for paying for that kind of government payroll is that i am not getting my dollar’s worth in services… in fact, if our government’s response to Katrina is any indication.. and it is only one of a string of poor government responses in the last two terms… i am not getting even my penny’s worth in services…
Then of course, there was that bang up job he did aiding and abetting both the demise of manufacturing jobs and union busting… that hasn’t worked out so well.
perhaps the a free market would have worked out better.. but that isn’t what we have had…
There are more retail and service jobs in the united states than government and manufacturing combined. That is definately something to be concerned about… because they are not jobs of substance and once the party is over so are the jobs…
it doesn’t take an economic degree to figure that one out…
The funny thing is that if you took the reactions to democrats out of your posting.. it could as easily have been written by one of those you think are taking the morally superior tone…
the issues you mention are issues we feel passionately about… issues we plan to hold this government accountable for both short and long term solutions…
My parents were both children during the depression.. my dad worked one of the CCC camps here in the northwest as a young man… they were both teens during the war time “shortages”… and i grew up with those stories and those times only a heartbeat away…
I don’t like the idea of more debt any more than you do.. but i liked it less when George Bush drove up our deficit for an ill planned war… and hid the true cost of the war in contractor expenditures while our nation’s infrastructure crumbled for want of funds.
If there is going to be more debt.. and there is going to be more debt whether we pay to feed and house people or we pay to create jobs.. then i vote for getting something of value for our money…
And yes, i think it’s high time we made sure that it was something of lasting value…
January 25, 2009 at 2:39 am #655793
AnonymousInactiveLOL – Bravo, HMC, for starting an interesting discussion! I commend you and plan on following the debate. Hopefully I will be interested enough to join in at some point (the more opposing views here, I feel, the better).
You pretty much summed it up, however, with your assessment of differing political views. I have been discussing and debating here for over a year. If you do not AGREE with the liberal train of thought that is rampant here, you are considered unintelligent, racist, close-minded, etc..
Yet, it’s extremely ironic that people will use a link from dailykos (one of the MOST liberal sites on the internet), to TRY and make some kind of intelligent point.
Some things never change. This forum is one of those things. Like I said, I’ll be enjoying the debate….. from afar.
Good luck! :)
January 25, 2009 at 2:57 am #655794
GenHillOneParticipantHMC Rich, we disagree on politics and I have never, for one minute, considered you unintelligent, racist, or close-minded.
January 25, 2009 at 3:07 am #655795
JanSParticipant“If you do not AGREE with the liberal train of thought that is rampant here, you are considered unintelligent, racist, close-minded, etc..”
no, I don’t feel that way. Misguided? maybe…but I see name calling a lot, not necessarily on here, and putdowns by the Repubs against the Dems. It’s definitely a two way street…but we’re just “bleeding heart libs” who want to bleed our country dry with taxes, and the observation that we may not be in our right minds.
I think we can all agree that this country is in trouble economically, infrastructurally, militarily, to name a few. If we don’t all start supporting and working together, it’s just gonna go to hell. If we love this country the way we say we do we will start working together to support the administration that is in there, so we can get it fixed…and , IMO, we need to leave the petty bickering behind…
January 25, 2009 at 4:00 am #655796
JoBParticipantthis has been edited for clarity…
i consider people who make unintelligent, racist, close-minded statements …
to be making unintelligent, racist and closed-minded statements…
i think they make them because they are unintelligent, racist or closed minded people or because they honestly don’t know any better or because they want to incite others…
i try not to make judgments about their motivation.
either way.. conversation isn’t a sports game where the team that scores the most points against the other wins… at least, if it is.. we are in far deeper trouble than i thought… and conversation is largely irrelevant.
i can’t believe that.
it is possible to maintain a minority position here in this forum and still emerge at the end of the discussion with respect for one another’s integrity.
HMCRich has managed to do so since he appeared…
and i managed for the most part to do so during the democratic primaries.
There is indeed a lot to be learned from the exchange of viewpoints. I consider people with opinions other than my own people to learn from… and i generally do learn from from conversation.
most republicans are not so different in what they care about than most democrats…
they simply see the way we got into this mess from a different perspective… and they don’t trust elected democrats to get us out of this mess.
Now.. that’s something most of the democrats and republicans… and independents… who engage in conversation on this forum can agree with… holding our elected representatives accountable.
it’s a start.
January 26, 2009 at 6:36 am #655797
HMC RichParticipantAmen. Accountability. It is sad that so many in public service lose their way. It is up to us to put them in office and throw them out.
The good news is that there is a ton of passion. The bad news is that not all really know why they are passionate.
I had a long winded retort for the previous JoB answer but lets say that we agree more than we disagree on Government Transparency and Accountability.
All I can say is thank the stars that we essentially have free speech. I credit all who post their opinions whether I like them or not.
January 26, 2009 at 11:09 am #655798
Garden_nymphMemberI will leave all the intelligent quotes to the rest of you and simply ask why you, HMC Rich, would be at an event celebrating the inauguration of a man you don’t seem to support or vote for?!
January 26, 2009 at 4:52 pm #655799
JoBParticipantgarden_nymph..
i specifically invited him… and i wish i could have stayed longer to spend more time talking with him. Unfortunately he walked in just as we had to leave…
I had several incredible conversations at that pot luck.
I can’t speak for his reasons for coming, but i was very glad he came.
i think one of the reasons for jubilation this inauguration was that even those who hadn’t supported his election could feel good about some aspect of that historic event…
even my brother.. who fought this election bitterly watched the inauguration and commented positively on some of the materials i sent him… imagine that:))))
maybe there is hope after all.
Helen Hayes is back in the front row at White House briefings after being banished from the last Bush White House for asking challenging questions … i think this is her 10th president and she already has questions :))))
life is good.
January 26, 2009 at 7:30 pm #655800
JoBParticipanti made a huge misstatement.. and got back to it too late to edit…
Helen Thomas is back in the White House press corp.. not Helen Hayes.
Helen Hayes was an actress.. and much better looking:)
January 27, 2009 at 1:23 am #655801
Garden_nymphMemberJoB, It’s all becoming clear to me now…after reading other postings by HMC Rich, I would like to apologize as I realize now that he sees potential and does respect President Obama (said while beaming). Here’s to continued discussion that mends fences right here in our neighborhood!
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