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December 10, 2010 at 4:03 am #710325
JoBParticipantDecember 10, 2010 at 7:35 am #710326
JanSParticipantBernie’s my man..I’ll have to do that tomorrow…thanks redblack..
December 10, 2010 at 10:10 am #710327
motorzenMemberI realize the irony, posting this here… but maybe a positive we could take from this is actually TALKing to people we know about this, and not just proffering semi-anonymously to each other online.
In this country, we don’t talk about politics in a civil, meaningful way.
I’d love to hear from the conservative people I know about why they support a party that would insist on extending these cuts for the richest people and businesses in the country. None of those people I know, based on income, will directly benefit from these cuts now or in the future.
Though, they may have convinced themselves otherwise (thinking in they already are or will be included in that top tier):
(from http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026/ )
Why don’t Americans pay more attention to growing income disparity? One reason may be our enduring belief in social mobility. Economic inequality is less troubling if you live in a country where any child, no matter how humble his or her origins, can grow up to be president.
December 10, 2010 at 6:23 pm #710328
JoBParticipantmotorzen…
I have to disagree with you that politics isn’t discussed in a quality meaningful way on the internet.
I do agree that in depth discussion isn’t the norm… but communicating via facebook, email and even forums like this can allow the kind of distance that is often necessary to have a conversation that doesn’t seriously damage relationships with family and friends who have strongly opposing viewpoints.
and as has been demonstrated here repeatedly… there is a lot of personal investment in our “anonymous” discussions.
The enduring belief in social mobility hypothesis has been popping up all over the media lately as a rationalization for the unwillingness of Americans to face the growing income disparity.. but I have trouble buying it.
The trouble with the rags to riches story is that when you examine it carefully you find the proverbial foot in the door… the handout or handup that created opportunity.
In Obama’s case.. he had two… highly educated parents and a grandfather who was the janitor at a private school which allowed him entry to a privileged world.
the reality is that American wages have been stagnant since the late 70s… even for the bright kids who invested in quality but perhaps not prestigious educations.
I think most people have long realized that the rags to riches story is more fairy tale than reality.
I believe the real answer to the suspension of individual interests lies in advertising…
which btw.. no-one wants to believe… that we can be so easily manipulated and sold ideas that are so clearly not in our best interest…
Lately i have heard discussions about how corporate interests have adapted the language of populism to apply it to corporations… thereby making individuals believe that defending corporate rights is actually defending individual rights.
Nowhere is that more clear to me than in the tea party.. a populist movement funded by corporate dollars supporting corporate interests but promoted through the language of individual rights.
What is clear to me is the need for more conversation at any level…
public or private…
Assimilating advertising doesn’t require thought. In fact… it is far more effective if given no thought at all.
Conversation not only inspires but requires all parties involved to think however briefly about the issues…
To be honest, i don’t believe I am going to change the mindset of those with whom i seem to do daily battle here on the forum.. though i vainly hope i have caused them as much thought as they have me… it takes a lot of thought to produce a coherent argument and in the process you can’t help but learn something.
I believe this kind of public conversation is most effective with the readers who may never venture a single post but regularly read and think about the comments on both sides of an argument.
When language is co-opted you have to find some means of moving beyond slogans to bring ideas into the public arena.. and i believe forums like this do just that.
At least, i hope they do.
December 10, 2010 at 7:56 pm #710329
JoBParticipanta differing viewpoint on the one year payroll tax holiday
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/12/payroll-tax-holiday-trojan-horse
i found the comments particularly interesting
December 11, 2010 at 6:22 pm #710330
dawsonctParticipantMaplesyrup, if you ran a corporation and DID NOT take advantage of lower tax rates whenever possible, you wouldn’t be running that corporation for long, would you?
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Which is why governments (us, in this case), must regulate businesses, since any business person that operates in the PUBLIC’S interest, when it impacts negatively the (short-term) profits of their corporation, will soon find themselves run out of their position.
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