Don't tell THIS guy to leash his dog!

[wakeflood]

My thoughts on Queenie and Porcupine’s posts are simple. If you have a potential solution to the issue, bring it on. If your lengthy “blame the victim” screed indicates that this either isn’t an issue worth addressing in the community, or you think the answer for those concerned about it is to simply shut up and deal, you could have done that without the hyperbole.

You conveniently left out the part where folks are asking the authorities the best ways to address it in the most effective manner. But then that doesn’t support your screed, now does it?

Okee dokee…

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[Cait]

First, people with their offleash dogs piss me off like no other and I think the person who posted on here about having their dog offleash is incredibly selfish. Certainly hope they don’t come crying here when their dog gets bitten by another dog, probably one with leash aggression.

With that being said – Queenie is not the only person who feels that way and it’s not fair to dismiss it because they aren’t addressing some mystery list of prerequisites in order to voice that opinion. It’s been talked to death on this forum and over time the reactions have gone from helpful to farfetched to ridiculous to scary. It’s not an issue that requires this amount of vitriol. Prepare yourself accordingly that people will continue to not leash their dogs and there will always be another idiot justifying it. Prepare. Scold. Suggest. But stealing someone’s dog? That is LOW.

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[Jeannie]

Bravo, wakeflood! You’re absolutely right when you say, “You conveniently left out the part where folks are asking the authorities the best ways to address it in the most effective manner. But then that doesn’t support your screed, now does it?” As I noted, it’s important to take reasonable action, which I am doing. And, yes, I will report here what the Parks Department official tells me. I myself have no intention of dognapping, obnoxious as their owners may be – good lord! But be assured, Animal Control is on my smartphone.

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[wakeflood]

Noted, Cait. You’re another two votes for “no dog napping!” and “shut up and deal”. ;-).

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[No_moo_for_you]

Yes, pets are considered personal property, so one cannot abduct a dog from a public park and think they are being a law-abiding citizen. Also those fantasizing about citizen’s arrests will be sorely disappointed to find that they are discouraged by SPD per this article: http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/2008/12/30/can-people-really-make-a-citizens-arrest/

Dogs will be off leash. People will litter in public places, loiter in public places, beg in public places, drink in public places. People will disobey speed limits and fail to pick up dog poop. People will mistakenly put garbage in recycle bins and recycle into garbage bins. You can’t do a citizen’s arrest and hold them against their will because you are opening yourself up to false imprisonment charges and possible assault. You just have to live your life; life goes on! It’s not a me-me-me attitude, it’s accepting that these first world problems will always exist, so just breathe and pat yourself on the back for knowing better than to let your dog off the leash. 99% positive on-leash dogs approached by off-leash ones have the moral high ground and can’t be implicated for an off-leash dog’s actions anyway.

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[wakeflood]

I beg to differ, no-moo. Not that these things won’t always exist, because they will. But that it’s NOT a “ME, ME, ME” society. It most certainly is and it’s getting demonstrably worse.

You seem to think that 1% are at fault. I think you’re between 10%-30% off, depending on the topic.

Nobody thinks any of these will be eradicated, but the perception that actions don’t have consequences is prevalent and used to be much less so. (Want a big example? Just 25yrs. ago we prosecuted dozens of white collar criminals who went to jail for the Savings & Loan scandal. Now we can’t even have a trial for guys who nearly broke the whole financial system.) That’s changeable. But change happens because of action. As Margaret Mead said: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

Yes, this issue is merely a proxy for many others in society but it isn’t without consequence.

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[No_moo_for_you]

1% are at fault? No, anyone who knowingly does something against the Revised Code of Washington is at fault. I’m just saying life is short and you have to pick your battles. If you want to choose off leash dogs as your focal point, good for you, but resorting to dog-stealing and citizen’s arrests do not help your case. Why don’t you start with something more traditional and less likely to result in litigation? You merely have to look back to history for inspiration. You could have a sit-in at these public parks or protest with picket signs and megaphones. Make brochures and pass them out to people. This is all about action, after all, correct?

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[wakeflood]

Agreed but you gotta’ get off the dog-stealing red herring. Someone posited that maybe holding an off leash pet until the authorities arrived was an option. And the response from many was to ask the authorities what the best responses were. Citizen’s arrests suggestions fall into the same category.

At least remember that the folks throwing suggestions out have been trying the basic, non-confrontational stuff to address it to no avail. Frustration leads to escalation – at least verbally.

And I HAVE seen folks discuss this issue at public forums several times so it does have involvement. And maybe we will see some people handing out flyers, etc. someday soon. I would support those types of efforts, to be sure.

But to deny that this issue isn’t symptomatic of a bigger societal one seems indefensible to me. Maybe you’re not?

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[No_moo_for_you]

Wrong – please see Tracy’s post on page 1 of this thread: a sampling here – “If the owner was so far behind the dog, perhaps the dog needs to be picked up and driven to the animal shelter and reported as a “lost” dog?”

Definitely would advise you to start small with sane, peaceful protests and documentation. I am still aghast at the irrationality exhibited within this thread. Quite disturbing indeed!

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[wakeflood]

OK, and did you see a bunch of follow-up posts saying that was a good idea?? No, what you saw was folks saying that they should see what the authorities suggest is the best response.

And btw, that’s not an irrational response, it’s a disproportionate one. There’s a difference. An irrational response wouldn’t address the issue at hand in any way.

Talk about taking a deep breath…

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[No_moo_for_you]

ir·ra·tion·al

iˈraSHənl

adjective

1. not logical or reasonable.

I definitely see the correlation between that definition and Tracy’s idea. Frighteningly enough, no one disputed her idea or gave a simple “gee maybe not something that extreme” except for those (Queenie, Omnious, SeattlePorcupine) who can see the evident irrationality and insanity in such posts.

Anyway, I am going to go walk my dog (on leash). Toodles!

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[wakeflood]

Take a few friendly reminder handouts with you today, no-moo??

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[JoB]

So mooo..

if i am to ignore the social contract when it comes to people who choose to ignore leash laws… because it’s a first world problem and i should just get over it…

i might as well do the same elsewhere..

next time i need to pass gas i should simply let her rip.. whether i can fart with confidence or not.

after all.. it’s literally a pain to me to hold it in and it’s not illegal nor does it endanger anyone else’s health.

it’s offensive to be sure..

but it’s offensive to me to be prohibited from using the parks because some people believe they are exempt from leash laws…

and you’re fine with that.

if you don’t care.. i guess i don’t either ;->

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[No_moo_for_you]

Hmm I don’t see the relation between farting and off leash dogs, but sure, if it strikes your fancy, go ahead and toot.

I do care, especially about being humane and presenting myself to society in an upstanding and sane manner. Dog napping and locking my fellow parkgoers into toy store handcuffs do not correspond with the image that I uphold. Carry on.

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[2 Much Whine]

Can’t we discuss signs that say “clean beavers get more wood?” It’s so much more fun.

For what it is worth, I drive to dog parks if I want my dog to go off leash but an off leash dog roaming around at any of our other parks would never prevent me from going there for a stroll with my on-leash pet. It wouldn’t even enter into my thought process unless it was the size of a horse and was rabid and had a baby hanging from its mouth or something extreme like that. I suspect that’s the case with many (but apparently not all) folks. I feel very blessed that my life is not consumed by worrying about dogs off leash, where people put dog poop, dogs that swim or dogs in restaurants. I’m very fortunate to never have been bitten or attacked by a dog and I’ve never developed phobias to them. I also feel lucky to live in a place where others are allowed to care about everybody else and their dogs and how they handle them and can express it openly on places like this forum. I’m pretty sure nobody cares on here what I think as it doesn’t fit in with the lynch mob mentality but now I’ve thrown my opinion out there and can go back to not worrying about dogs or their owners. I have an unconfirmed suspicion, though, that this virulent hatred of off-leash dog owners did not exist 50 years ago. I could be wrong. It would be interesting if someone had statistics on the rise of off-leash dog owner hatred around the city/country/world.

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[skeeter]

I’d like to point out that speeding and off-leash dogs are different. I agree that both are illegal. However, one could accidentally break a speed limit by 2 or 3 MPH. An off leash dog is not an accidental mistake. It’s a purposeful act of disobedience that violates both the spirit and letter of the law. In my mind there is a difference, and I suspect I’m not alone.

Addressing 2 Much Whine’s points in #65 – I can’t speak for anyone else, but part (maybe most) of the reason this issue really bothers me is because my just-turned 3YO and I enjoy walking in parks and dogs really scare my daughter. Adults are able to see a dog’s behavior and assess the risk of the situation. But to a 29 pound child not quite three feet tall, a fast wagging tail and muzzle all up in her personal space is very, very scary. It seriously freaks her out. So my strong preference is for people to obey the law and violators be punished.

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[skeeter]

Side note: my question to the SPD from several days ago has not received a response. I will update this thread when I hear back.

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[No_moo_for_you]

I’d like to point out that accidentally going 2-3 miles over the speed limit is likely not endangering anyone and not likely to result in the driver being apprehended. Those purposefully going 10+ miles over the posted speed limits are committing an infraction and I am sure they are aware of it and understand the consequences once they are stopped by a real, trained, uniformed officer and not some guy in jeans and sneakers proclaiming that he is doing a citizen’s arrest.

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[skeeter]

No_moo – I agree 100%. The police are far better equipped to enforce the law than an untrained individual like me. That’s why I’ve reached out to the SPD to get their advice on how this should be handled. See post #25 for the exact text of my question to the SPD.

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[wakeflood]

I dunno gang, looks like we’ve re-re-retreaded this ground again as usual. Barring Jeannie’s update from Animal Control or skeets SPD note, we probably should table this one until the next incident?

By way of resolution, I’d be in favor of Animal Control printing and stashing a stack of handouts at every park entry point describing the ordinance, why it’s a good thing, and how it can be enforced.

As per no-moos suggestion, those who are so inclined can hand them to offenders. You know, the ones who won’t take them from you or will toss it on the ground whilst hurling expletives at you and your kids. ;-)

But lift up your spirits all, Spring is peeking its head out. Which, by way of connection to this thread, means we’re only a few weeks(??) away from the bi-annual, Lincoln Park goose assault and resulting thread. (Should I add the Groundhog Day reference here in honor of Harold Ramis??)

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[seaopgal]

Actually, wakeflood, I think this IS the bi-annual Lincoln Park bird assault thread. From Jeannie’s #1: “Here we do again … The little terrier spotted a group of four ducks, and doing what comes naturally, chased the ducks, frightening them away.”

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[maplesyrup]

Anecdotal to the “first world problems” mention and 2 much whine’s question about other parts of the world…

I spent a fair amount of time in a big city South of the border, where most owners don’t leash their dogs.

To my amazement I’ve never seen a dog fight, not even between leashed and unleashed dogs. Barely an altercation even, and the dogs usually stop immediately when called. And yeah I spend a lot of time in public parks for lack of better things to do.

The dogs that seem to be problematic are leashed/muzzled. Of course the fact that dogs run free – not strays mind you, bad things happen to them- is due to widespread disregard for the rules and lack of municipal control, but it always makes me wonder, what do those owners do to keep their dogs so well-behaved? To let them run around in a park in a huge city without worry?

Maybe our approach is overly-restrictive.

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[wakeflood]

Dunno, Seop, the Lincoln Park Geese Assault thread – aka LPGA thread (not the LPGA for you golf fans) is specific to those geese. We could certainly start a LPDA thread, should we all expect an ongoing need?

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[datamuse]

I have an unconfirmed suspicion, though, that this virulent hatred of off-leash dog owners did not exist 50 years ago.

Oh, I dunno. Ever seen “Lady and the Tramp”? ;)

At this point my only real issue is that I like to run, and I haven’t met a dog yet that didn’t like a good chase. So, I don’t run in parks anymore. Oh well.

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[JanS]

Maplesyrup…even dogs who wear muzzles need exercise. I have a friend who has 2 rescue dogs who were abused as pups. One has an issue with people, one an issue with other dogs. I have known her for multiple years, but have never touched/petted the one who has a problem with people, and I respect the pup’s personal space. However, they need to get out and go for walks. Neither enjoys having unleashed dogs come running up. My friend explains that to the owners who mostly say that their dog is safe and only wants to play. But her dogs? Well, they’re not muzzled, but they will take the “playfulness” as an attack and you can see how it might end.

Why should my friend not be allowed the freedom to go to a park like Lincoln Park and have her dogs be safe…and left alone? It matters not what dogs do or do not do in Mexico or wherever you were. “But my dog likes to run” is not a good excuse. Adults should be in charge – their dog is not forcing them to unleash(there’s that living in the world of “should” again). And not saying something to them, allowing the behavior smacks of them then thinking it’s OK with everyone, and they will just keep on doing it because no one complained.

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