Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Who owns the land btw sidewalk and the street?
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March 7, 2008 at 3:11 am #586515
digiresMemberGreetings, I am wondering on streets like those in the Admiral/California area where there is a house (or townhouses), then a sidewalk, and then a narrow strip of grass, then the street, who owns that narrow strip of grass? Is it deeded to the house, or does it belong to the city of Seattle?
It seems that homeowners are expected to do upkeep on it, but my question is whether there are property rights to that strip?
Thanks in advance for your help!
John
March 7, 2008 at 3:36 am #616900
charlabobParticipantIt sounds like the city thinks it’s theirs — I actually planted three cute, but apparently illegal, trees on ours and no one has ever complained. :-)
March 7, 2008 at 3:52 am #616901
digiresMemberAha, thanks for the response. I found the statute that controls here. Apparently these are owned by the city. It is covered under Title 15 of Seattle Municipal Code:
“D. “Public place” means and includes streets, avenues, ways, boulevards, drives, places, alleys, sidewalks, and planting (parking) strips, squares, triangles and right-of-way for public use and the space above or beneath its surface, whether or not opened or improved.”
March 7, 2008 at 5:34 am #616902
RickBMemberThis was reinforced for me when buying a house and reading the legal property description. After detailing which portion of which quarter of which quarter (these things are kind of fun to try to decipher), it finished up with:
“And except the West 30 feet thereof conveyed to King County, Washington, for road by deed recorded…”
In this case I think the 30 feet starts at the center of the road and covers the lane of traffic, parking lane, green strip, and sidewalk…
-Rick
March 7, 2008 at 2:48 pm #616903
BernickiMemberWe had our last property surveyed when we were thinking of a remodel. The city claim does start at the center of the road. We found out the city owned not only the sidewalk and parking strip, but about half of our front yard.
And can I add a little rant here? For the people who put plants on their entire parking strip, leaving not one square inch upon which to step when exiting the car? I’ve said it here before: your primroses are going to feel the sole of my shoe, because as much as I would like to, I can’t hover over the parking strip until I get to the sidewalk.
March 7, 2008 at 3:14 pm #616904
digiresMemberThe problem we are having is a neighbor who comes out and yells at us while walking our dog (which we always clean up after). He was claiming that it is his property and that he had spent a lot of money landscaping. There are hundreds of dog walkers who walk by every day, some of whom do not pick up after their dogs. We are just as frustrated by that, since we often step in their mess on the grassy planting strip in front of our townhouse after dark.
Now that I know that the property is not his, I have something to counter with.
Thanks everyone.
March 7, 2008 at 3:53 pm #616905
charlabobParticipantWe put two rock paths through the vegetation so people (including us) could get to the sidewalk. But it is a good reminder.
March 7, 2008 at 4:07 pm #616906
KenParticipanthttp://www.seattle.gov/transportation/plantingstrip.htm
Rules that govern the use of planting strips in Seattle city limits.
Also note the rules for snow removal from city sidewalks abuting your property.
SMC 15.48.010
Snow and ice removal.
It is the responsibility of the owner or occupant of private property
to remove snow and ice on the sidewalks abutting his or her property
in a timely manner and, if practical, prevent its becoming or
remaining in an icy, ridged, uneven or humped condition or in a
condition which is potentially hazardous to users of the public
sidewalks.
(Ord. 117569 Section 121, 1995; Ord. 90047 Section 39,
1961.)
March 7, 2008 at 7:36 pm #616907
gregorywadeMemberBernicki, that’s a classy attitude. I’m glad you won’t be visiting my place any time soon. I certainly wouldn’t want any inconveniently place plant to suffer your inability to hover, which apparently includes the inability to watch where you step.
As to the parking strip, why argue with the guy? Honestly, the argument that “it’s city property” serves you to what ends? Having the last word?
The City’s provision states “Beautification of planting strips is encouraged” and “A planting strip shall be maintained by the abutting property owner or applicant.” It would seem the property owner would have more interest in the area than your perceived right, or more appropriately the convenience, to allow your pet to eliminate it’s waste.
In my opinion, it makes more sense to simply find another spot, rather than defend the right to make use of it for those purposes. Or, if one needs to draw a little blood, simply pull the dog off the planting strip, direct it to the side-walk to finish it’s business, and say good-day.
March 7, 2008 at 7:46 pm #616908
JeraldParticipantReading the planting strip rules, I see everyone is supposed to get a permit for changing the strips. And generally you’re supposed to leave room for people to get out of their cars. I’ll step on your plants too, and you’d better leave room for my door to open!
March 7, 2008 at 8:10 pm #616909
gregorywadeMemberClearly, permits are required, but I doubt it’s common practice. I am fairly certain the provision’s intent is to cover the city backside. If they need to dig up a planting strip, they won’t be held financially responsible for the destruction of landscaping or valuable plants. Further, a permit provides the city with a means to hold a property owner for damage such a trees growing to buckle sidewalks and road ways.
And yes, there is a component addressing spacing from the curb which would provide for doors and passengers. However, if you take that as license to stomp on plants, and tell people what they “better do,” well I am fairly certain my plants are safe, because you won’t be invited to my door soon.
March 7, 2008 at 8:45 pm #616910
AnonymousInactiveJerald – I’m fat and use a cane. I still have no problem stepping out of a car onto the CURB and walking a short distance to a clearing. What’s your problem? The regulations say to leave a clearing of approximately 3 feet at both “ends” of the strip. Nothing there about accommodating rude parkers. And the depth of clearing from the rest of the curb pertains to a raised bed or tree.
Some of us like our property to look nice. Also, and this is included in the rules, I get really tired of coming home and finding someone parked halfway onto the strip (illegal). I’m planning on putting in a whole mess of plants to discourage that. And if you “accidentally” mow them over, watch out for the accidental planting spikes I dropped.
March 7, 2008 at 8:53 pm #616911
digiresMemberGregorywade,
The problem is that out pet is not even eliminating on the strip that the neighbor perceives as his own, yet he still takes it upon himself to come out and harass us. I think he finds it easy to pick on his next door neighbors rather than complete strangers. He even yelled at another neighbor for using a weed whacker in front of her yard, because the “dandelion seeds were going to drift onto” his planting strip.
We are not the ones starting the argument or making a fuss, what’s wrong with being clear about what your rights are and asserting them when you are being harassed?
March 7, 2008 at 9:20 pm #616912
RainyDay1235MemberSo…I have 2 trees in my strip that have grown so much in the 2 years I have owned my house – they are no impeding the street parking situation as well as getting into the power lines.
Who pays for the tree trimming – the city? :)
March 7, 2008 at 9:31 pm #616913
digiresMemberI think that you have to take care of it, but you have to have a permit to “prune or remove trees from the right of way” according to city of Seattle’s web site.
[begin quote]
4.30.080 Planting Strip Maintenance
A planting strip shall be maintained by the abutting property owner or applicant.
Soil, bark or other loose material and planting material other than a tree(s) shall not be permitted to intrude upon the street or sidewalk.
A tree(s) may extend over the right of way when kept trimmed to a height of 8 feet above a sidewalk and 14 feet above a roadway.
[end quote]
March 7, 2008 at 9:39 pm #616914
gregorywadeMemberdigires,
I didn’t mean to imply you were starting an argument at all; however, I have to wonder what you’d win if you carried it on; and I am far from clear what rights are being asserted, and how this provision supports those rights. I just not sure.
March 7, 2008 at 9:43 pm #616915
ErikParticipantWhen they replaced the street sign in front of my house last year they also trimmed my evergreen trees to about the 8′ point above the sidewalk. So, eventually the city will do your yard work for you.
March 7, 2008 at 10:37 pm #616916
digiresMemberNo problem, gregory. My reading of SMC Title 15 seemed to indicate that all of the parking/planting strips are public spaces (as stated in the “Definitions” section under “D. public spaces”). Rights asserted would be the equal right to exist on that planting strip, and reminding the homeowner that he does not have property rights vis-a-vis said planting strip. It seems that you have a duty to maintain, but do not have property rights. Consequently, the expected “neighborly maintenance” of that strip seems to not give rise to any duty of care to pedestrians on the planting strip either, as it would were they on your private property, or even on the sidewalk (there is a duty to keep the sidewalk clear of debris from your planting strip or yard and free of snow and ice, etc). I found a lot of case law on the subject last night, many of them involving incidents in West Seattle.
I agree with you that it is always better to avoid confrontation if possible. That said, if the neighbor is going to give us a hard time anytime he sees us walking by, I want to at least be able to stand my ground, and know what my legal grounds are.
March 8, 2008 at 1:01 am #616917
JeraldParticipantI never drive on anyone’s plants, but I do think one should be able to open the door on the passenger side. That is simple politeness to me, since streets are for public use, including parking. We have a nicely landscaped planting strip that includes about 2 feet of clearance along the curb, leading to paths between the garden beds.
March 9, 2008 at 5:10 pm #616918
KenParticipantI realized later that I posted links to the rules (and probably not all of them) but did not weigh in on the issue discussed.
Sometimes confrontation is required. The “get off my lawn” interaction, I believe, could be a symptom of loneliness. Your neighbor may actually be well aware of the legal obligations and responsibilities related to the planting strip and accost you rather than strangers as a way (a broken way) to interact safely.
Try not to escalate the issue and ask him for advice in planting low maintenance ground cover one your strip. That does not actually mean you have to plant anything, but it changes the subject to one that does not have to end in the same place a “get off my lawn” conversation usually leads.
My city right of way was rebuilt as part of the Highpoint phase one and the street has tourist/ gov officials inspecting it several times a month since it is the only porous street in the city.
Who is responsible for what got pretty confusing since the normal rules and who did what to the right of way, were altered by each parties self interest.
As long as there are developer houses to sell in the area, I suspect the SHA and the city will continue to take an interest in how the planting strips look and not one second after that.
January 21, 2011 at 3:26 am #616919
kootchmanMemberHow about you let you dog s–t in YOUR backyard before you let him dump on a public right of way? I don’t want your worms, parasites, diseases spread through the neighborhood. Just cause you pick it up that is supposed to make it ok to crap in other peoples neighborhoods? You also put your animals at risk…if they scent by urine or defecation other dogs consider that a territorial grab…and if you have one of those nauseous yapping things, they are now intrusive prey, and likely to be mauled. The truth is many do not pick “it” up, not every dog has good vet care and health care, and the one I liked best..the butthead that called the cops..and then got busted for an unlicensed dog!
January 21, 2011 at 4:13 am #616920
redblackParticipantread the deed.
the city owns the sidewalk and the planting strip; but, by law, the entity who owns the property abutting the sidewalk has to maintain it.
bottom line: it’s public property.
January 21, 2011 at 4:15 am #616921
MargLMemberWait, whut? This thread is _2_ years old!
January 21, 2011 at 4:20 am #616922
redblackParticipantJanuary 21, 2011 at 5:38 am #616923
JanSParticipantredblack…no, consider the person who came on like gangbusters about 2 hours ago on a 2yo thread, and they just joined the forum today. Glad we have new faces…but…pick your battles :->
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