Parks announces online community meeting for West Seattle projects including Lincoln Park pickleball courts

Josh November 17, 2023 (2:00 pm)

Forget MNF, this is sure to be a popcorn worthy event.

Pete November 17, 2023 (3:14 pm)

I’m not sure whether to dress as a pickle or a bird. Just wish it wasn’t a work night, got to stay sensible.
Taxpayer November 18, 2023 (8:20 am)

LOL

JustSarah November 17, 2023 (2:01 pm)

If you want to attend, follow that link to register and make sure you note the meeting on your calendar. This is a great chance to get questions answered directly from SPR!

CB November 17, 2023 (2:03 pm)

Not sure how this is a ‘public meeting’ – feels very controlled via ZOOM- where they (Parks) get to tell us what they’re going to do vs having discussion. Feels like a set-up.

JustSarah November 17, 2023 (4:23 pm)

Really? I think it’s more equitable in many ways than an in-person forum. A large majority of households these days can readily access the internet, and this format allows people to attend even if they have to care for family, don’t have a car, or whatever reason. I’d expect more diverse attendance than if this were an in-person meeting.
- sad November 17, 2023 (9:38 pm)
  
  JustSarah, most cities have direct mail surveys, online surveys, and opportunities for folks to provide live feedback for something this dramatic. Even things that are less dramatic. This really out there by Parks and this meeting on Monday is a big middle finger to the community they supposedly support. I’m so saddened with the current administration.

Keenan November 17, 2023 (2:22 pm)

Remember people, if you’re going to talk at this meeting keep it SIMPLE and TO THE POINT.

No one wants to hear your life story, or your thoughts on national politics, or your rants about why we’re talking about this thing instead of that other thing you’re more personally concerned about.

If you’re against the pickleball courts, I recommend using the same succinct talking points from the Fauntleroy community meeting:

The Lincoln Park site would make a bad pickleball court – There’s no drainage, it would be wet all the time from the trees and the compacted ground, there’s no lighting at night, and it’s too far from parking to know if anyone is using the courts without walking far into the park.

Pickleball is incessantly loud and annoying – The constant BANG BANG BANG of pickleball will rob us of one of the last large quiet natural areas in this city. There are tennis courts all over Seattle, and very few large quiet forested areas. Keep Lincoln Park natural!

It will scare the birds or whatever – I personally think this point is complete bull and totally unnecessary but if you’re an real biology or zoology PhD and not just a “naturalist community volunteer” and can point to some ACTUAL, PEER-REVIWERD SCIENTIFIC EVICENCE of why the noise would harm wildlife, than please do so. If you don’t have real studies to point to and just like to spew psudeo-environmentalist mumbo jumbo, please keep quiet and don’t embarrass yourself or our cause.

Not the only issue being discussed November 17, 2023 (3:11 pm)

There are a half dozen projects being discussed.
- mygoodness November 17, 2023 (4:12 pm)
  
  Yes, I’m sure they are packing the agenda to leave 5 minutes for the hottest topic so it they can breeze right past it.It’s amazing how much I have grown to resent Parks in the past two months. Who do they think they are just steamrolling the community like this? They are freaking PARKS for goodness sakes. You’d think they’d give a darn about the community. 6k signatures in a peaceful petition just ignored… https://www.change.org/p/preserve-lincoln-park-s-natural-balance?signed=trueBruce Harrell appointed Supt Diaz. I will remember that.
  - Alki resident November 17, 2023 (4:43 pm)
    
    6 thousand signatures from a grossly misinformed petition. Can’t wait for all of this nonsense to be done so we can play pickle ball.
  - Pete November 17, 2023 (5:29 pm)
    
    The other topics are just important.
  - ApplesOranges November 17, 2023 (6:19 pm)
    
    https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/08/07/noise-from-pickleball-can-be-annoying-but-is-it-torture/
    - AppleOranguSE November 20, 2023 (5:32 pm)
      
      Forgive me, WSB, forgive me everything. Like not even accessing my email. Has my device been hacked? Has your brave and untiring website? I can’t imagine anyone but you being able to overlay my pg12, pulled str8 from public City docs (I believed), with a photo of an old van. I can’t imagine you would, or why, or why not just delete the post (fine, fine, it’s yer show; Scar stop whinin’) or that you’d publicize some random unrelated vehicle’s WA plate (C56106L, in the 1 in 10mil you don’t see wot I see). This is really so goofy. No explan makes but nil long-shot sense. Grand delusion that I (gimme a sec) yep: still see. Makes no sense you’d have lost access to this. Paranoid fantasy that The Other Side did it. Still, crummy old Ram2500 suddenly obscures the I think key doc I’d posted then twice called attn to, tho I don’t know that both made it. I know Patty’s did. Anyway. Things don’t ‘normalize’ at some point I’ll have to find that ol password. Until then… again, like I’ve said. But enough, I go on too long.
belogical November 17, 2023 (4:18 pm)

You don’t speak for “our cause” Keenan and anyone with common sense knows that if pickleball drives humans nuts (Google ‘pickleball’ and read the many articles) it will drive animals – with stronger hearing – nuts as well. Also, anyone with a brain knows that light and noise pollution drive animals out. Why do you think Lincoln Park has more individual species of birds than anywhere else on the peninsula? I’m sure we’d all love scientific studies, but seeing as there aren’t grants going toward pickleball and birds studies, we don’t have many to choose from. We actually have to use common sense.
- Rob November 17, 2023 (8:25 pm)
  
  Went by that spot today it was peaceful. But then the Stelair Jay’s went off then the natural crows had like a murder going off . It was defying. Had to wait for a bit just to keep talking with my girl. It was loud.
Jethro Marx November 17, 2023 (4:19 pm)

Oh Keenan, this will not do. Let me offer my own primer on how to attend:
1. Video ON! Set the stage: harsh lighting is the way to go, and put your weirdest stuff in view of the camera. Bonus points for a fake background with poor edge-handling.
2. This is DEFINITELY the time to bring up your pet peeves about Seattle, America, Israel, or people in general. Bonus points for using the terms “MAGA,” “Trumpian,” “ally” or “woke.”
3. Try to mention or show us your pets and their conditions. This is prime time to share a burrito with your ferret and give your cat medicine and/or open-mouthed kisses.
4. If you get to comment, start all of your sentences with long and pointless lead-in phrases like, “With the way things are in the world today…” or “I’ve been in Seattle long enough that I can remember when X was Y, so…”
5. Make bold but dumb and utterly puzzling statements like “We all know that the greatest existential threat to life on this planet is life on this planet.” Or maybe, “A city can only be vibrant if it’s full of life but that life must find a way to not crowd out the silence it depends on.” “Progress is always progressive, but this city is full of regressive liberals.”
6. Instead of simply typing your name, also cram in something we definitely won’t need to know, like how long you’ve lived here, the fact that you consider yourself anti-racist, your preferred pronouns, or your stance on one or more social issues.
7. When it comes to your stance on pickleball, make sure you pretend you haven’t made up your mind before saying something wildly disproving that. Tucker Carlson it if you have to: “Is it possible that the Orcas started to decline when pickleball was invented? Is this why the dinosaurs are gone? Are people being bused in from out of town by corporations to support/oppose this issue? Hey I’m just asking questions!”
8a. Get up and walk off camera, but keep talking.
8b. Mute your mic, but keep talking.
9. Drink or eat something. Tell us what it is and why you need to have it now.
10. Bonus points for big sighs, eye rolls, and weird gesticulations when anyone else is speaking.
- WSMom November 17, 2023 (4:44 pm)
  
  Whether you think pickleball in LP is a good idea or not, I think many of us might agree on this: Jethro Marx’s comment was fuuuunnny. For real. Thank you, JM.
- Jill November 17, 2023 (5:45 pm)
  
  Thanks for the laugh! That was worth reading and made me laugh out loud!
- Pickle rick November 17, 2023 (6:41 pm)
  
  this is the best wsb comment ever and i’ve been reading since pb was invented
- 1994 November 17, 2023 (10:08 pm)
  
  The Jethro Marx primer on attending virtual meetings is perfect! Follow all suggestions as written! Did you , Jethro Marx, write the Big Pepsi comment on one of the prior pickle ball threads? I keep waiting for Big Pepsi to tell us another adventure at Lincoln Park.
- Rockatansky November 18, 2023 (8:12 am)
  
  You had me at “give your cat medicine and/or open-mouthed kisses…. ” Thanks for the chuckle.
- Taxpayer November 18, 2023 (8:28 am)
  
  Way too funny. Thx for laugh🤣
ACTUAL PEER-REVIWEIRD November 18, 2023 (5:52 pm)

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-97540-1_13?error=cookies_not_supported&code=ad7b6975-b01a-4e0f-81f7-960fb1ba68f4.
- EVICENSE November 18, 2023 (6:37 pm)
  
  Sorry, I know we’re all paying close critcal attention to and reconciling our positions with every word everyone else says, and I’d hoped to attach this more closely to Keenan’s repeated demand way up there for more hard science than has been offered in more links than I’ll count in what must be 8- or 900 comments and I think 6 WSB reports prior to this. Down here it’s just lost. And would have answered everything. C’eeeeeeest la vie; wooooooe is me. Anyway.

CarDriver November 17, 2023 (2:25 pm)

Will be interesting to see how many pro pickle actually participate.

HS November 17, 2023 (3:34 pm)

Per the Seattle Parks page, here are the number of courts in Seattle, per neighborhood. West Seattle has 12 outdoor courts.https://www.seattle.gov/parks/recreation/sports/pickleball

notes November 17, 2023 (4:14 pm)

More importantly, there is rarely a wait to get on these courts AND the local pickleball community does not support the creation of courts in Lincoln Park.
- WS Res November 17, 2023 (5:10 pm)
  
  the local pickleball community does not support the creation of courts in Lincoln Park. – Please cite your source – is there a study?
  - seriously November 17, 2023 (9:41 pm)
    
    ‘WS Res’ ask around. It’s common knowledge. Maybe Parks could survey the local pickleball community to get ‘the study’. That would be a nice gesture on their part. To. Do. Any. Sort. Of. Real. Community. Surveying.
- Alki resident November 17, 2023 (5:49 pm)
  
  Actually the local pickle ball community DOES support Lincoln Park and cannot WAIT to use it. Thank you
  - Birder November 18, 2023 (8:16 am)
    
    Alki resident, I vote for pickleball courts at Whale Tail Park. So much more convenient for those on the north end of the peninsula.
  - Taxpayer November 18, 2023 (8:30 am)
    
    I’m a beginner but can’t wait to go to a beautiful setting and get some healthy exercise and connection with others. It’s a fun sport. Let it be. Let us play. The birds will be okay folks
    - Define Okay November 18, 2023 (5:53 pm)
      
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/01/09/some-birds-are-so-stressed-by-noise-pollution-it-looks-like-they-have-ptsd/
  - needstruth November 18, 2023 (8:49 pm)
    
    This is just not true, Alki Resident. The majority of West Seattle pickleball players don’t want the courts at Lincoln Park. Ask around. I know you had mentioned in one of your previous posts that you don’t play pickleball. I do.
  - justthinking November 18, 2023 (8:54 pm)
    
    Alki Resident, you have mentioned in previous posts that you don’t play pickleball. I do and I am connected to leaders in the local group of players. It is well known that most do not support the creation of courts in Lincoln Park. Also, hello Jackson, you are the minority in the conversation but it’s nice to hear from one person that plays the sport that wants pickleball in Lincoln Park. Tell me, do you visit Lincoln Park now? Do you know what the silence means to those that need it?
- Jackson K November 18, 2023 (12:14 pm)
  
  Me and my team want this! I already have a tournament coordinated with Burien, Georgetown, and South Park. Can’t wait!
Saturation Entitlement November 17, 2023 (6:37 pm)

(Compare courts and parks, read abt green space in Seattle, USA or the world, bark, whatever.)

Ev November 17, 2023 (4:00 pm)

Love Pickleball

letsbethoughtfulofothers November 17, 2023 (4:21 pm)

Me too! Let’s continue to play on the many other courts in West Seattle and show some respect for the 6k neighbors that signed a petition hoping they don’t have to give up their quiet natural respite. To me, that is what it means to be considerate and a real community member.
- Neighbor November 17, 2023 (4:33 pm)
  
  As a neighbor who did not sign the petition, please interrogate it a bit more. Read the text of the petition, which mixes a few causes and has misleading information. Look at the comments on it, most of which indicate the signers know nothing about the project because they reference how awful it is to be cutting down trees, paving over forests, etc. Those are not the signatures of informed people, and many of them don’t even live here. They were here to see the troll or signed the petition after seeing it on social media.
  - Denise November 17, 2023 (5:14 pm)
    
    How about pointing to a single wrong fact on the text of the petition? I read it carefully and did not see anything incorrect.
    Oh, and there’s also the 1300+ emails to Herbold in addition to the 6000 on the petition that are more than proof: People DO NOT WANT TO RUIN LINCOLN PARK.
    - Woofer November 19, 2023 (1:56 pm)
      
      “How about pointing to a single wrong fact on the text of the petition?”
      Sure.
      Commencing in the first paragraph, “No qualified environmental professional was consulted, both proposed projects are within or border an Environmentally Critical Area as well as a Priority Species Habitat Area.”
      
      FALSE, the site isis easily verified as not in either a King County or City of Seattle Environmentally Critical Area. The ECAs can be viewed on the DCI and King County GIS sites.
      
      Later we see exactly why so many signers of the digital petition have been mislead. “
      The addition of pickleball courts and a dog park will undoubtedly attract more visitors to Lincoln Park.”
      This conflates the dog park with the pickleball which proved successful in harvesting digital dittos.
      
      Virtually all of the hundreds of comments on WSB are regarding the pickleball.
    - Team Played November 20, 2023 (1:23 pm)
      
      I’ll hit with ya here too, old pal, justa keep things friendly and str8. 1st you quote the petition, then mercilessly expose it as factually “FALSE“, declaring yr assertion “isis easily verified” without, again, doing that, as you so very rarely do. BUT! Maybe that’s bc here agn no-one COULD verify yr claim easily or at all, as it carefully or carelessly overlooks or excises the petition’s precise and here logically binding wording: “…are within or border an…” on which you ruthlessly but not validly overspray “…not in either a…” and introduce new verbiage. But ignore “or border an”. (This is interestingly comparable to your misrepresentation of brave Councilmember Herbold’s wrds.) So. Net ball. 2nd: the dog thing. Again R 1st volley over this junk was a month ago, when I or my nominal proxy trustingly, guilelessly told U or yrs that saying ‘p**b*’s not a problem cuz wottabout dogs’ was like those voices then here saying no-one should care abt LP bc Gaza. (My rhetorical ace.) U nvr said nothin, ther’s nothin to say… but now you’ve morphed the whole thing in a way you curiously often do, accusing the Park’s protective ppl of “conflating” just the things that you do. The petition says, in intent and effect, ‘don’t disturb the Park’. For every citizen you and yrs–Alki, JS, etc–accuse of being too dumb to read that, vulnerable to being made to believe their own pants R on fire, who was (as strangely more than one of you rptdly fail to spell) “misled” and signed against p**b* not as well as off-leash but because they were fooled by the one into unwittingly opposing the other… wow. Whew. (A breath.) For anyone able to get thru a day who’s also that helpless, there’s another who said, ‘oh, p**b*. Hate that sh**. But my precious Pookie here, yknow yolo. Evry park evrywhere s/b off-leash. I’m not signing that.’ It’s a wash, Divert. The petition conflates nothing, misleads and misled no-one. With *all* *due* *respect* and good humor, in my humble opinion… you do. Everywhere here. All the time. (So agin: mebbe leave ’em alone.)
  - Sick of the rudeness! November 17, 2023 (5:18 pm)
    
    Neighbor, your response is beyond rude. You do not know the people who signed the petition or their reasons. Why are there so many endlessly nasty responses from the pro court people in every post about it? You have other places to play, we only have one Lincoln Park. Go somewhere else.
    - Alki resident November 17, 2023 (6:51 pm)
      
      You’re telling someone to go somewhere else, so who’s being rude again? I’m sure you’d love to think the pro pickle ballets are rude and disconnect but quite the opposite. Just because you don’t like or want something doesn’t mean the rest of us need to disappear and go elsewhere. This court is being revamped and nothing more. We’re simply getting our old court back.
- Alki resident November 17, 2023 (4:46 pm)
  
  You mean the six thousand mislead signers? Those people? People didn’t have a clue the slab of concrete even existed and still have no idea what they actually agreed to. Laughable
  - Patty November 18, 2023 (4:03 pm)
    
    “Getting our old court back,” is untrue. It’s been a storage area, and the last time people played tennis there War Games was playing at the Admiral. It was always lightly-to -not -used and had lots of tree debris on it. I love pickleball, and most players I’ve met are very considerate, unlike a couple posters here. Pickleball can go anywhere. There is only one Lincoln Park, and it should be preserved for what it is – a quiet, wooded area with animal habitat, a quiet refuse from the noises of the city.
    - Woofer November 19, 2023 (7:22 am)
      
      “Getting our old court back,” is untrue?
      
      Just what part of that statement is untrue, Patty?
      
      I am absolutely certain that those are old courts.They were used by the Chief Health Tennis Team for decades.
      Photographs from Chief Sealth yearbooks show players on those old courts.
      I played on those courts hundred of times and they did have lights, controlled by mechanical timers, for night tennis.
      I think we should be able to agree factually on the historical existence of the Lincoln Park tennis courts at the location in question..
    - Outmouths O'Nabes November 19, 2023 (5:32 pm)
      
      11/19@7:22am, ‘Woofer’: “…those old courts. I played on those courts hundred of times and they did have lights, controlled by mechanical timers, for night tennis.” Oyez, that is true, Woo. According to you. So let’s stay on point for a min, me you you an you, and review. (Everybody? These pcs connect, and make a cage.) First, yr abv Woof. B4 that, beneath WSB’s Oct 27 p**b* story, 10/29@9:55p SE D spoonfed Jethro a Nat’l Academy of Sciences study SE’d pushed at you (then Diversityinpark) from another source at 8:18p; ‘thro was frthr gifted w excerpted big bold black text. Maybe that held yr attn; at 11:07p you answered w yr own study, an yr own smaller big bold black excerpt. Piqued, SE read the study, and at 1:53am yanked yr curtain back and in the process quoted thusly from your source: “Instead, our models suggest that the degree of light pollution more significantly impacts avian communities’ composition.” ‘More than what?’ hapless WSB p**b* first-timers or hands-over-only-eyes-n-ears monkees might understandably wonder. A: more than noise; so, like acid is more corrosive than bleach. Both’ll eat ar insides out, so let’s avoid ’em both–but th’ worse turns out, in this study, to be light. So,
    - Jethro Marx November 19, 2023 (9:05 pm)
      
      “…spoonfed Jethro a Nat’l Academy of Sciences study…”
      
      I’m not going to get into an inscrutable discussion here, but you left a link to an article discussing a study. The study is here for free (and seems legitimate, though I didn’t get crazy in-depth)
      https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1709200115
      
      The study found some interesting things, but it is far from clear that they would apply to this case. They studied birds in artificial nesting boxes in a natural environment with added human noise in the form of gas well compressors. This is low frequency, high amplitude noise, measuring 90-100 or more decibels at the source. I could not find quite what the measured amplitudes were at the nesting sites, but pickleball noise has generally been characterized as higher in frequency and measuring up to 70 or so decibels at the source. In one part of the study, reporting on negative impacts to body size and feathering due to noise, they see noise bringing positive or no impact up to 70dB, and negative impact above that amplitude.
      
      These are also birds that are not a great match for Lincoln Park’s mostly wild-nested birds living on an urban environment, but if we were to ignore that and assume the findings of the study could be applied to the population near the proposed courts, the findings would not support the notion that pickleball noise would be harmful. That does not speak to potential impacts of construction, increased human traffic, or future possibilities for lighting, but that’s the way studies are.
      
      If you were to be arguing against allowing permanent round-the-clock operation of a large gas generator or a well that required compressors in Lincoln Park this study may support your argument. In the current case it can only be considered to work against your arguments or perhaps not apply at all.
      
      I think the most interesting thing they found (irrelevant to this topic) is that the negatively affected bluebirds had significantly lower baseline levels of corticosterone, but stress-induced spikes in the hormone were far higher than in control groups. Meaning we disrupted their ability to regulate their body and mind. We humans have found many ways to do that but it’s unclear that playing pickleball is one of them.
      
      If you are worried about the birds you would do better to stop using pesticides and herbicides and all the weird fertilizers that include them. Oh and stop flushing medicine and drugs down the toilet.
      
      P.S. all of you should stop using rotating user names
    - Rotating Nothing November 19, 2023 (10:45 pm)
      
      Man THAT took awhile. And I think I’d said ‘spoon-fed’ b4. Also said b4 I’m the choir, I don’t need to rebuild my life’s knowledge base and convictions in service of others’. Read the study Divert obscured and misrepresented. Read any and all studies and articles to which links have been offered in the ~1300 Comments on this since mid-Oct. Google for yourself, pluck yr own myriad from the universe. Read this, a broad treatment, and decide if it applies. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-97540-1_13?error=cookies_not_supported&code=ad7b6975-b01a-4e0f-81f7-960fb1ba68f4  Looks (now) like you have the capacity. Use it or don’t, believe facts or alternatives. (I don’t know whar Keenan’s problem is.) Many here post nil but pure fallacy. You, despite this here and what’s sometimes evident in yr humor, throw out a classic Red Herring to close with (b4 yr P.S.) Meh. That’s just nonsense. So it goes. I appreciate the sober and reasoned attention tho. Woulda bin helpful to have begun long ago. Tell me if you think like Scarlett that the only studies or science that apply are studies undertaken of p**b* per se’s impacts on bird species that occur in LP and I’ll ignore you hereafter OR maybe ask your engagement of the constitutional question as informed by ApplesOranges comment somewhere maybe above: is this proposal properly and legally exempt under Seattle Muni law from SEPA review? Either/or–yrs–Whoever.
    - Passé Baton November 20, 2023 (11:30 am)
      
      Way back there in the gathering storm, just like abv: you let something slip. Oct 24@12:56pm, lost in 225 Comments beneath the 10/23 WSB story, Diversityinseattle (man I’d nvr noticed that one): “I will be happy to contribute money to establish new highly efficient focused state of the art pickleball specific lighting.And I have never played pickleball”… Whew, right? and ya don’t live near Solstice. (When there were 84 comments on this 11/17 page, there were 1259 published total. How many iterations of that one shape-shifting name.) Anyway. End of our story, last bars in yr cage. Science, 1: noise is bad. 2: p**b* is very noisy. 3: lights are bad, maybe worse. Fact, or logical inference: lights will follow p**b* demand. Fact, in regrettable evidence: all trees not long ago lakeside lining renewed Seward Park courts have been logged; runners’ ruts will be asphalt and so it goes. Years of countless studies of noise prove it damages the unhoused lives of non-human beings with paper-thin skulls and impossibly sensitive ears they can’t cover. Years of countless studies of artificial human light prove it can be worse. If Emerald City Seattle Washington inflicts that insult and assault on one of its few surviving dwindlingly quiet shady green spaces… Harrell?! Diaz?! Rusty?? What the fu** do we do?!
    - Patty November 19, 2023 (10:35 am)
      
      Woofer, your post doesn’t have a reply option for some reason so I’m replying here. I should have said “misleading” because it’s an unfair comparison. I did acknowledge in my post that it was used for tennis decades ago. “Getting our court back” implies that tennis and pickleball are roughly the same, and have the same impact. There should be an acknowledgment that tennis was abandoned for various reasons there, and the right thing for Parks to do would be to study the environmental impact of converting this storage area in a wooded part of the park cherished for its wildlife and serenity, and get input from the community before announcing the plan.
    - Cakes November 19, 2023 (6:18 pm)
      
      Patty yer a nice lady, if y’ll frgive me, an I’m an angry old cur but boy we’re on the same side. I only want to say and spread the word–and the most pertinent specific words on the topic are in the pages copied abv by ApplesOranges (me) from this City’s own guidance on application of its own laws--that this isn’t a question of what’s right to do so much as it’s a matter of law. There’s a link somewhere here from northeastern.edu illustrating unarguably that this fad has radically different physical effects and impacts than old Rod Lavers’ tennis, but beyond that the SDCI guidance doesn’t describe anything like this steamrollin’ project proposal as being rightly, correctly legally exempt from SEPA review. Parks and the City are dug in as if for trench warfare, in defiance of all right-thinking voices and interests here, of doing the right sensible thing or any part of it, and of the law. I check the Times and the Stranger daily hoping to learn why. I’m glad you replied here.
- Gw November 17, 2023 (5:17 pm)
  
  There are over 100k people in the WS/South Park area. 6k signatures is adorable and not an impressive number. Plus, the petition was really misleading or at very least, mislead people signed it.
  - baffled November 17, 2023 (9:35 pm)
    
    I’ve never seen a 6k petition in Seattle, ever. Have you? This is a huge turnout for a petition. Where are the big numbers of supporters for courts in Lincoln Park? I don’t see them. I’ve never met them. Not even West Seattle pickleball players want the courts in Lincoln Park. The only people that seem to want them are people that will never play on them but like the idea of them, I guess? So weird.
    - WestSeattleBadTakes November 18, 2023 (9:06 am)
      
      To be clear, you think wanting things to be available for others to enjoy is… weird?
    - Jackson K November 18, 2023 (12:17 pm)
      
      Hi. I’m Jack. I live in WS and plan to ride my bike to the courts to play. My team wants to use these courts as our primary courts v setting up every time we play on the Chief Sealth courts. Nice to meet you.
  - math November 18, 2023 (8:55 pm)
    
    If even only 10% of them are real/informed, it’s still hundreds more than the people that want and will actively use the courts.

DC November 17, 2023 (4:29 pm)

So excited for pickleball in Lincoln Park and a new off-leash dog park in the Junction! Thank you Seattle Parks!!! Boo to the obstructionists trying to delay these projects.

Alki resident November 17, 2023 (4:47 pm)

I’m excited too!! See you at the court.

Denise November 17, 2023 (5:08 pm)

Here are some useful points to guide comments:
—The unique, negative noise effects from pickleball are not in dispute—they are well-known and documented and Parks readily admits to that fact. The noise is a problem unique to pickleball. It has nothing to do with tennis, baseball, kids playing, or any other noise currently or historically in the park.
—The undisputed negative effect on wildlife from noise pollution is common knowledge among anyone who even has a working understanding of ecology or wildlife biology. The starting point for an objective, fact-based, informed decision should be to hold a study BEFORE adding any type of new noise into a park that supports sensitive species as well as environmental critical areas. The onus should be on pickleball and Parks to prove it is safe for wildlife, NOT the other way around.
—Yes, this is an emotional subject because so many people LOVE this park and the living creatures it supports. Emotion has a place in this, and anyone who says otherwise simply a robot or, more likely, has no other valid argument other than to lob easy, age-old put-downs. (You know who you are). BUT, The observations and facts above about noise are entirely objective and need to be addressed before any pickleball courts are allowed in the park.

Scarlett November 18, 2023 (9:55 pm)

The problem is that a study, which will be expensive and time-consuming to design and implement, will likely not provide any definitive answers. I don’t know of any other research that attempts to find the unique accoutical effect of pickleball noise, specifically, on bird wildlife, but even if there were, it would be impossible to draw definitive conclusions from research conducted elsewhere and apply those conclusions to the unique habitat of Lincoln Park.

In my mind, the real question is this: Assuming we could definitely establish some adverse effect on birds from pickleball noise, it is likely that the effect will be in a gray area that is open for contentious debate: At what threshold do we determine the adverse effect is serious enough to outweigh those who want a pickleball court? In the end, this debate will be ended by the loudest and most strident voices and/or those who wield the most power – but certainly not science.

Kersti Muul November 17, 2023 (6:19 pm)

This isn’t a ‘public meeting’ – more like a series of updates. You will go into breakout rooms on the project of your choice. It’s not interactive by any means and if you’re interested in the dog park updates or another project, you have to decide between break out rooms, etc. Pre-selected questions will be read, and answered. There is no guarantee that your questions make the cut, or get answered.The cart is going before the horse here, as Parks has other news about Lincoln Park they should update you all about before the meeting, but they may not – so, continued lack of transparency.

Woofer November 17, 2023 (7:52 pm)

Kersti,Good to see you writing here.
I remember your flyer doing just that: conflating pickleball issue with the dog park issue.
Now you have that result, what is your take on the dog park updates.

1) Do you consider the rampant off leash and on-leash dog damage to our public lands forests and green spaces also apply to Lincoln Park and its fragile wildlife? Should dogs be allowed in our fragile parks with so many dog owners ignoring the laws regarding dogs in the parks and beaches?

2) Do you still claim that trees will be removed by parks around the old tennis courts?

3) Have you or any of your group assessed and measured, per Seattle City Code protocol, the actual sound of pickleball at nearby Walt Hundley Field vs the ambient sound levels at the sports and recreation area of Lincoln Park?

Facts do matter.
Looking forward to your answer, please?
- Denise November 19, 2023 (7:39 am)
  
  hey, Woofer,
  
  The facts regarding the opposition of pickleball and the dog park have been given in great detail, and they are not in dispute. If you still don’t understand, you can ask a sincere question and one of us will be happy to answer. But, you should stop making false accusations. It’s not a good look, especially when it’s under the cover of anonymity.
  - Woofer November 19, 2023 (1:22 pm)
    
    Thanks for your fact free reply Denise.
    
    Your reply infers that those three questions are not sincere.
    Why?
    They are at the heart of there issue and remain unclear.
    Please quote what false accusation I made?
    
    And “it’s not a good look” regarding anonymity, is platinum irony, as the “Denise” posting this comments is also anonymous.”
    Denise” might be a 12 year old in Dubai or bot from China, same as “Woofer”?
    Regardless, WSB policy has, I believe, always allowed anonymous posting, as long as they are consistent within the string.
    I think WSB encourages discussions that can become passionate while maintaining respect for other viewpoints and avoiding personal attacks and name calling.
    I appreciate civility and I am sincerely asking for answers to those three questions?
    - JustSarah November 19, 2023 (2:09 pm)
      
      Thank you for mentioning the issue of one person posting under multiple names in a thread, because it’s very obviously happening in these comments from the anti-pickleball folks. I noticed three comments that seemed very similar in time but purportedly from three different people… All posted within a five-minute window last night. Odd coincidence!
    - Team Play November 19, 2023 (11:26 pm)
      
      I gotcha here, friend, you disarming old boy- or girl- scout. Yer politeness and sincerity absolutely slay me. To yr 1): I told you abt Google way back there somewhere. You abused it, but let’s try again: type in ‘Red Herring’. Classic textbook logical fallacy. Invalidates an argument. Dogs have no bearing on the matter at hand. Game. To yr 2): type in ‘Straw Man’. Same thing. The fact that felling lumber isn’t part of this ill-informed proposal doesn’t start to address more grown-up mid- and long-term concerns for the trees. Set. And yr 3): type into yr device a search thru this colossus for one Comment among the 254 in just the 10/31 chapter of WSB’s stewardship of this epic, at 12:41am Nov 3. There I or someone writing in my name or something patiently explain to you, illustrate even, as in a children’s book, that noise is cumulative, that yr beloved Blue Thunder builds from each single frenzied fan adding to others, much like the noisy zealots the northeastern.edu link you’ve already tried to obfuscate describes crowding yr beloved once-genteel spacious tennis courts. Got no word since then from you in rebuttal of that pretty basic and self-evident quantitative concept. Don’t expect to. Aaaaaand, Match. (How bout leave ’em alone.)
Debrief Please November 17, 2023 (8:30 pm)

If you go to Seward Park, and walk the flat asphalt Parks road around the perimeter, toward the N end approaching and leaving the gravel beach you’ll see where the asphalt has been widened in recent years w new stretches on the water side, on a very slight slope because they weren’t planned or needed before skyrocketing 1)use, and 2)individualism/entitlement/cluelessness. On the water side of that added paving, you can deduce how it was made necessary: a new rut’s being beaten into the earth and roots by runners who have every right to run thru the park and don’t feel like running on asphalt, and don’t think they do any damage to anything. Matter of time before still more paving’s added, and runners will run beside that until they hit trees, which already alone interrupt the expansion. This is the battle. Ppl w a sense of more than themselves, and eye-rolling boobs who just wanna have fun; and this is how the end approaches: one off-track Saucony at a time, one smack of these miserable infantilizing paddles. If this ignorant short-sighted assault on Lincoln is repelled, it’ll be thanks to you and Denise and whowhatever you’ve mustered–but if you know or *may* know or might *guess* what Parks isn’t saying, or will or may, or what’s driving Diaz or Harrell or the disinformation campaign here–bc the whole thing’s a concerted freakshow front for *some*thing, surely–maybe other ppl w like you a bigger view of things could do more. Bc it’s a really weird mystery why so many are refusing so resolutely to see. (Even Keenan? Lotta solid links back there, buddy.)
CB November 17, 2023 (9:45 pm)

Thank you, Kersti. My sense ( and fears) exactly-that Parks will call this their effort of a ‘public meeting.’ They continue to break trust with the community.

TJ November 17, 2023 (6:24 pm)

You also have Schmitz Park to unwind and listen to nature. Lincoln Park is a MULTI-USE urban park meant for human recreation, in a city some people want more density in. It’s not a refuge or sanctuary. Hearing people say it will be “ruined” by repurposing an existing concrete slab is comical. I live in Scottsdale AZ half the time and Seattle has a reputation for people being off their rocker. This stupid childish obstructionist campaign by a few doesn’t help that image.

Horse Water November 17, 2023 (7:22 pm)

“The father of American landscape architecture, Frederick Law Olmsted, and a key contributor to the establishment of the National Park System, said of urban parks: It is one great purpose of the Park to supply to the hundreds of thousands of tired workers, who have no opportunity to spend their summers in the country, a specimen of God’s handiwork that shall be to them, inexpensively, what a month or two in the White Mountains or the Adirondacks is, at great cost, to those in easier circumstances.”https://www.nps.gov/subjects/urban/why-urban.htm
- Woofer November 17, 2023 (8:09 pm)
  
  “Frederick Law Olmsted (1822-1903) was an innovative landscape architect who co-designed some of New York City’s most beloved parks, including Central Park, Prospect Park, Morningside Park, and Fort Greene Park.”I have been to all of those parks and they are all multi-use parks offering sports, recreation and outdoor amphitheaters. Olmsted designed roads through those parks such as Central Park in Manhattan with it multiverse of activities has far more bird species than does Lincoln Park. This is in the middle of the 24 hour lights, vehicle traffic and sirens and urban cacophony of NYC. Central Park also has 16 pickleball courts. Central Park has hosted some huge rock concerts with hundred thousand people. Please comment on how this compares to Lincoln Park, (a much greater percent of Seattle with far fewer bird species) which is not a Frederick Law Olmsted designed park?
  - ohforheavenssakes November 17, 2023 (9:22 pm)
    
    Central Park is 7x bigger than Lincoln Park and the pickleball courts are not open year round (neither are the concerts). I also don’t think people in Seattle want to live in a NYC-like atmosphere and they don’t want Lincoln Park to be Central Park. When will you get it? Six thousand people signed a petition saying they don’t want the courts in Lincoln Park. Even the pickleball community in West Seattle on the whole doesn’t want the courts in Lincoln Park. We are not suffering from a dearth of pickleball courts in West Seattle. I know. I play the sport. This is a dumb, off the cuff, poorly thought out idea by Parks that they are trying to ram through for heaven-knows-why.
    - Josh November 17, 2023 (11:09 pm)
      
      I don’t care if they do or if they don’t put pickle ball in the park. I do have to say though that I went to the petition page and read a lot of the comments and the vast majority made strange comments that seemed to indicate they had never been to Lincoln park, did not understand the scope of what was being proposed and hence what they purported to be protecting, and all in all seemed like they maybe got directed to the petition through a very large email burst or something. Again not taking a position but pointing out the whole 6000 signature thing seems not like it is reflective of actual stakeholders.
    - Woofer November 18, 2023 (8:34 am)
      
      “I also don’t think people in Seattle want to live in a NYC-like atmosphere.”
      
      Yes, the insular non-diverse by age race and wealth activists in Seattle trying to keep the hoi poloi out of their personal “nature preserve” would not like NYC type atmosphere.
      
      But this discussion is about bird species and by the data provided by Audubon, hundreds more species of birds do chose to live in the 24 hour lights, sirens, and continuous legendary din of the Big Apple.
      
      The Audubon stats of NYC and Seattle challenge the two main arguments against activities in parks that activists have continued to claim: NOISE and LIGHT.
      
      Clearly the birds in NYC do not seem to mind.
      
      After admitting that no trees, such less tree groves will be removed, the arguments fall into the “I just don’t like…”categories.
haveaheart November 17, 2023 (9:29 pm)

TJ. First of all, I don’t think very many people in Seattle seek the approval of people that live in Arizona. Second, “the few” are the people who want the courts. “The many” are the ones that don’t want the courts. I’ve seen a petition with thousands of signatures saying no thank you. Where is the one with thousands of pickleball players petitioning for courts in Lincoln Park? There isn’t one because they aren’t even asking for one. Third, Lincoln Park is a refuge to many. Maybe not you, but as a fellow (part-time) community member, perhaps you could respect their needs.

WS NIMBY’s unite! November 17, 2023 (9:02 pm)

The level of NIMBY-ness in this thread is off the richter scale!! Holy cow. Tell you Lincoln park folks what – you manage to prevent your own courts you’re definitely not welcome to play in my neighborhood.

This is not a true public meeting November 17, 2023 (9:05 pm)

Their decision has been made even though there is a lot of valid opposition. They should do a full review with true public input and environmental review. This is appears to be a PR stunt.

Disrespect November 17, 2023 (9:09 pm)

Wow. The assumptions. The negativity. It’s not funny, it’s incredibly sad. To bring up issues like Israel, as if that’s funny too?? Shameful. Weigh in on whether you are for or against pickleball at THIS location. That’s actually ALL this is about. And you dont need to justify your opinion to anyone, you have the right to feel how YOU feel about Lincoln Park, and any of the plans. Parks are for all, these decisions should have been openly explored from the beginning, and all info shared from the start. I agree that these zoom meetings aren’t really “open”. They’re mostly just presentations, and are highly controlled. The process on the other projects were handled differently (appropriately) from the beginning, so hiding this issue behind other presentations is a little questionable IMO. It’s common practice with the city though, so I’m not surprised. I wouldn’t expect too much of an opportunity to speak. Always better to also send a direct email so your for or against vote goes on record there too. The constant ridiculing, insults and disrespect of people who feel differently than you is pretty ugly, and a weak attempt at bullying YOUR way. Most people can see that, and so you are not helping your side/argument to win anyone over. My thoughts are that if the negative bullies want this, I want no part of it.

VBD November 17, 2023 (9:47 pm)

It’s interesting to me that the opponents of pickle-ball focus on the part of the project that will refurbish the old tennis courts, while ignoring the access improvement. Currently, Lincoln Park has dismal access for wheel chairs in the upper forested areas. As it turns out, pickle-ball is popular with wheelchair athletes, and the idea of providing those players access to a recreation area well within the park is a biggest part of the appeal of this project for me. If you don’t like the idea of people rolling their chairs into the park for some recreation just because it creates some noise, I’m not sure what to say…. but it should be noted that the new courts will be next to the baseball fields. Nobody is going to convince me that whacking a pickle ball is louder than the piercing ping of a baseball off an aluminum bat…. so this seems to be the obvious location.

VBD Really? November 17, 2023 (10:43 pm)

Nobody here for all of the noise has ever said one single word suggesting that they “don’t like the idea of people rolling their chairs into the park for some recreation just because it creates some noise,” so if as you say “I’m not sure what to say” maybe that’s okay, hey? Just to not say? Such a careless mischaracterization? Bc how is it at all helpful, to slime things all up like that? And on yr stolid unshakeable committment not to listen to the difference btw a sweet spot every inning and the faddish rat-a-tat tat, you are humbly offered a pointless though qualified counterpoint. Good night.
VBD Sorry. November 17, 2023 (10:49 pm)

Forgot: https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/08/07/noise-from-pickleball-can-be-annoying-but-is-it-torture/
- CARGUY November 18, 2023 (11:25 am)
  
  Per that article linked
  
  “ The decibel level from pickleball can range from 45 to 70, says Laffan, an audiologist and speech therapist and associate professor in Bouvé’s communication and science disorders department.
  
  She says 70 decibels can sound like a vacuum cleaner running, while 60 to 65 decibels was the level of her speaking during the interview.
  
  What to do about the noise
  
  With lawsuits and complaints about pickleball noise following on the heels of pickleball court openings, can anything be done to make players and neighbors happy? Laffan says planting trees as sound barriers, limiting pickleball hours and preventing the installation of court lighting so people can’t play at night might help to reduce neighbors’ frustration.”sounds like a perfect spot among the trees and a park with a open/close time (dawn to dusk)
Jethro Marx November 17, 2023 (10:58 pm)

What is being left unsaid but perhaps hinted at is that pickleball or not, ADA accessibility is a huge issue at many public facilities and parks like Lincoln are the kind of recreational sites that are high on the list of places needing improved access.

Even if pickleball weren’t coming to play, expect the city to improve access on the bluff trail eventually, probably by paving. They will have to get fancy with it somehow as there are serious erosion complications.
Denise November 18, 2023 (7:24 am)

I don’t recall anything in Parks’ plan that mentioned wheelchair-specific access. Is there going to be a barrier-free access built all the way to from the court to the parking lot? If so, that is an entirely new element to this discussion. Assuming we (the opponents) are somehow “against wheelchair noise” is unfair and untrue.

Len November 18, 2023 (9:47 am)

My name is LEN and as member of the Gatewood Hill Social Association GHSA I am going to host a discussion with community members on the first Saturday of December. The escalating tensions within our community must be addressed in a healthy and respectful way. I have found that healing circles work best in situations like this with a dose of mindfulness. I will announce the time and place this evening. One Love !

Scarlett November 18, 2023 (4:49 pm)

Meh. Moderation and civility are overrated. A small town newspaper in N. Cal tried to rein in the “dumpster fire” letters to the editor. The result? A sanitized, dull section where no one’s cherished beliefs and opinions are challenged. But, yes, it is civil.

Cherished Challenged November 18, 2023 (6:20 pm)

Oh, my, fearless Scarlett, if only you knew just how much moderation and civility have spared you. You might inquire, if you dare, as to what you’ve been spared–not right here, Dear, but near! Very near! still, elsewhere! Right around here somewhere! Ask ’em nicely if they’ll share! Then, step up! Meet the challenge! Defend empty claims! Substantiate hot air! You’ve been challenged over and over and over again and answered proudly with… nothing. What’s the result of that? Not really civilized, nor polite; not really citizens nor civic duty. This is the way the world ends, Scar–not with a bang but bleating and braying and an insincere ‘meh’.
- JustSarah November 18, 2023 (7:58 pm)
  
  SE Dick, please just use your previous name. Your inscrutable writing style is very identifiable, so just own it.
- Scarlett November 18, 2023 (8:12 pm)
  
  Methinks thou doth protest too much. I’ve met all challenges and squashed all of them with logic and reason. You? I feel like you’ve been stewing and brooding for quite some time and are lashing out because quite probably you’ve been dismissed over and over and over. Next in line, please.
  - Naked Jaybird November 18, 2023 (11:42 pm)
    
    Mmmmmm-K. JS, yr too clever fr me by a mile. I nvr thot no-one would know. (Can u spot them all?) Only rite to note, tho, that a bunch of you rite like the same ol’ crank, and Divert (my newest but probly now re-branded pal Diversionarybark) has vanished (whoosh) and been replaced by all kinda new folk. But anyway Scar, let’s you an me. Whether u no nobody in ther rite mind will review this whole WSB p**b* juggernaut, even just the late October part, or naut, whether yer addled or not ready to stand trial or wot: let’s just recap, one thing, real brief. I will sacrifice and dredge it all up again, prop the corpse up–bc I had you, dead to rights, in response to yr Nov 1 3:12p “dismissal” of me, but got too much blood venom and invective on my keyboard, an’ off ya flopped. So here. Again. Encore. Maybe. ○ So, below WSB breaking news https://westseattleblog.com/2023/10/lincoln-park-pickleball-councilmember-herbold-asks-parks-to-host-public-meeting/,  Oct 27 9:53p Lisa Z offers a link: 3billionbirds.org. Oct 29 11:54p, same WSB page, you condescend to Lisa and pretend to be responding to the study heralded on the 3bb get-the-word-out/fundraising pg. You mention “…the scary headline… nuanced picture… bird biomass in the East and South regions, the Pacific and Central regions…” (a sorta head-scratcher there). You say, quote, “Too, many of the declines have been among non-native species,” and I’m wrinkling my brow. “There are as many ways to interpret a study as this,” you say, and I quoted, “as there are birds…” So by now I’m doomed to read that study. Couldn’t find it on 3billionbirds, myself–twice. I begged you Oct 31 1:08pm (curses! I’ve outed SE!) to tell me wherehow you had. Nothing. So I rptd the whole challenge verbatim+, courtesy WSB, below https://westseattleblog.com/2023/10/lincoln-park-pickleball-seattle-parks-says-its-pausing-project-construction-for-two-weeks/ and aftr another sh**storm, at 11:36pm. Next morning you gave yourself an ‘A+’ for all yr brilliant arguments, rptd none of them, told me to read ’em again. Still no study. I said as much, rptd my request and challenge. Nothing, again, as I’ve earlier here said. Jus tol’ me crawl back inna hole. No study (or valid arg, fr that matter) ever shared, never IDd nr cited by u. I’d have begged demanded challenged and shamed you to again 2days later but couldn’t be at all moderate or civil abt it, nearly choked myself out. (Don’t say it; not polite.) Wouldn’t ask anyone here for this 2nd indulgence–not Alki, not JS or JK, not rilly asking now–but for my mild demeanor and rabid desire to out you and yours for what I know (privately) you to be. So just gimme that link, Scar, to that study–or just name it! I have Googles!–abt those ‘regions’ and non-native species–or yr intimidating interpretation(s) of same!–and we’ll take it from there, talk abt it, compare. *So* mutually respectfully. C’mon, Scar, nobody’s reading, let’s do this. Or. You. (I won’t say it.) But yknow ol’ Divert quoted Shakespeare bad too…!
    - Scarlett November 20, 2023 (11:26 am)
      
      So far, my little friend, you’ve not rebutted a single argument or observation. You have, however, taken up a good deal of space with sequences of words strung together that bear zero resemblance to rational thought. But I’ll keep sifting through yours mounds of verbiage for that proverbial needle in the haystack.
    - Scarlett November 20, 2023 (4:40 pm)
      
      Let me respond – wearily, albeit:When you use a study (you can use as many aliases as you want, no one cares) to buttress your argument you have to be careful you don’t end up arguing against yourself. Take for example, the provocative headling about 3 million birds being lost, as someone noted in the thread. Let’s assume that figure is correct, well, one of the species making up a good proportion of those losses in the study, were non-native species, such as the European Starling. So on the one hand, wildlife biologists are concerned about the proliferation of non-native species and in the next breath they are afraid that they are disappearing from the American landscape. The obvious conclusion? There are various subjective ways to interpret a study depending on what one wants to extract from that study. See where I’m going? In this case even so far as to call it misleading. As I mentioned previously, the authors of the study were honest enough to acknowledge this contradiction. And so on. Now, read what I wrote, digest it, think about it, and then get back to me with a thoughtful rubuttal, or some thoughtful aside/tangent.
Jethro Marx November 18, 2023 (7:47 pm)

The fact that some newspaper’s letters section is not exciting you is not any kind of litmus test for the concepts of civility and well-moderated affect.

As a counterpoint, I think the fact that many West Seattlites are ready to declare the sky in danger of falling on either Lincoln Park’s birds or their hopes for a new play spot and hurl insults at their neighbors over their support or derision of the Parks department is sad.

Scarlett November 18, 2023 (10:53 pm)

I’d rather have have a comment thread where there is a frank and hard-hitting exchange of ideas and argments – even if that entails a few ad hominens tossed in at me – rather than a sanitized thread where I have to read tea leaves to determine whether I’m being insulted or not. That newspaper I mentioned? It elicited a firestorm from a number of regular contributors to the editorial page who feared the newspaper was censoring a valuable exchange of ideas and information, all in the name of civility. My pet theory is that people are ticking time bombs not because of editorial pages but because they bottle everything up, having been told to be courteous, civil and never offend anyone. But enough, I go on too long.