One big change from one less lane on West Marginal Way, and what else the West Seattle Transportation Coalition heard from SDOT

Last night’s West Seattle Transportation Coalition meeting featured SDOT staffers talking about the low bridge and West Marginal Way. For the former, what SDOT’s Meghan Shepard told WSTC was mostly a recap of last week’s presentation to the City Council’s Transportation and Public Utilities Committee. We covered that here. She had one new stat – numbers from the one week of free rides offered on the West Seattle Water Taxi and Metro bus users who used the Transit GO app. Shepard said 2,100 people used the app that week – the last of three weeks the low bridge was closed to street and path use – and 1,435 free ride tickets were redeemed. (The funding for that is from the voter-approved Seattle Transit Measure sales tax.)

Also last night, SDOT’s Brad Topol presented an update on West Marginal Way. You won’t be surprised to hear that its traffic volume dropped 60 percent “overnight” when the high bridge reopened in mid-September. It’s down to about 15,000 vehicles a day, same as what the volume was pre-COVID. The number of more interest: During a two-week test in September and October, closing the outside southbound lane north of the Duwamish Tribe Longhouse, driver speeds dropped 12 percent.

They’re expecting that converting that lane into a protected bicycle lane – its temporary use since the low-bridge closure – will drop the average speeds even more. And they still contend that won’t noticeably add travel time to roadway users.

They’re evaluating the corridor for other possibilities that could cause “visual friction” encouraging drivers to be closer to the posted speed limit (30 mph) – bumping out curbs, for example. As for path/lane use during the low-bridge closure, Topol said it averaged 100 to 200 a day, mostly bicycle riders. (added) Here’s the full slide deck from SDOT’s portion of last night’s meeting.

NEXT WSTC MEETING: The group is meeting every other month now, still on fourth Thursdays, so the next scheduled meeting will be at 6:30 pm March 23rd. They might switch over to hybrid – in-person and online – meetings by then; they haven’t yet finalized a location.

26 Replies to "One big change from one less lane on West Marginal Way, and what else the West Seattle Transportation Coalition heard from SDOT"

  • Brian January 27, 2023 (6:54 pm)

    I have to imagine the closure of a lane reduced speeds simply because folks couldn’t zip around and pass people going the speed limit. I’d be interested to see if you get increased speed after the closure alleviates and people are able to pass legally. I’d also be interested to see the recordable incidents of people just driving around on shoulders/closed lanes anyway to do their interpretation of driving.

    • bill January 27, 2023 (7:20 pm)

      Brian, I don’t think you understand the project. The outer lane will be permanently converted to two-way bike lanes. It will not be possible to drive a car into it, so there won’t be any passing (except illegal passing in the center turn lane). The temporary bike lanes are a great improvement over riding on the sidewalk, despite playing bike slalom with the giant barrels which I suppose are necessary to keep the sociopathic drivers out of the bike lane.

      • Frog January 27, 2023 (7:50 pm)

        The speed dropped because of me.  I drive 37, and will continue to do so until one of the fast guys shoots me in frustration, probably while passing in the center lane.  Then speeds will return to 40-something.  Also, car drivers are more likely to be psychopathic than sociopathic. 

        • Eddie January 28, 2023 (7:34 am)

          37 is 7 over on that stretch if I remember correctly. 

          • Delta January 28, 2023 (5:46 pm)

            It’s 7 over as of today. It’s 3 under if the speed limit stayed at 40 like it was a few years back, and 8 under if it had stayed at 45 like it was many years ago. Speed limits in general are too slow.

        • Law abider January 28, 2023 (11:18 am)

          The speed limit is the maximum allowed speed. We need to stop normalizing this idea that “just” 7 mph over the limit is ok.

  • WS Guy January 27, 2023 (8:38 pm)

    How about an SDOT focus on how to help drivers safely drive faster, rather than add dangers that force them to slow down?  SDOT accident and fatality rates have not declined despite the vision zero methods they are using.

    • delridge January 27, 2023 (9:57 pm)

      This is the most baffling take I can imagine. All the data shows that higher speeds result in more crashes and more fatalities. The increase in fatalities was largely seen on bigger streets with high speed limits and few protections (like aurora). Fatalities decreased on surface streets where a lot of vision zero work has taken place. it is also widely understood that the increase in crashes and fatalities during Covid was caused by lower traffic levels leading to increased speeding so more violent collisions. Honestly make cars safer by driving faster? What are you 17? Like… you car isn’t convenient enough already? If you want every road to by 5 lanes and devoid of all pedestrians/cyclists so you can drive 55 on surface streets  all the way to the grocery store you should move to Southern California, I’m sure there is no congestion there anymore. 

      • WS Guy January 28, 2023 (2:48 am)

        The fact that you felt the need to attack me personally belies the weakness of your position.

         I don’t accept the excuses for the failure to reduce Seattle’s traffic incidents.  Vision Zero modifications simply do NOT work. They create incredibly complex driving environments. The speed limits are so comically low that they are ignored and left to the driver’s discretion.  The new ultrabright street lights cause drivers to forget to turn on their lights.  They have the same hue as headlights, reflect in puddles and make it more difficult to see cars at night.

        Excerpted from the most recent article I could find on the topic (Urbanist):  “Seattle is on track to see a huge increase in the number of people killed by traffic violence on its streets in 2021. The Seattle Department of Transportation (SDOT) Vision Zero team broke the news to the Levy to Move Seattle Oversight Committee Tuesday evening.”

        • WS Guy January 28, 2023 (3:01 am)

          A more recent article from a few days ago:  “ Seattle’s pedestrian fatality rate was 150% higher in the five years after the launch of Vision Zero compared to the five years before, a KUOW analysis of SDOT data found.”https://kuow.org/stories/pedestrian-deaths-climb-in-seattle-despite-city-s-pledge-to-eliminate-them

          • Jordan January 28, 2023 (7:57 am)

            The Vision Zero modifications worked as SDOT intended. It was never about reducing traffic incidents or deaths. As you show, the number of deaths have actually INCREASED.  It was always about SDOT pretending they are doing something meaningful and getting a larger budget. The “projects” are specifically targeted to pander to those interest groups that represent either a small but vocal group or a well financed one whose campaign contributions the current City Council members need, especially during the primary campaign. Millions of tax payer dollars have been spent and fatalities have increased with ZERO accountability. But upon review, the reason for that in Seattle these days is we just haven’t spent enough tax payer money on it yet.  One day it should work. Sound like any other issues the city of Seattle is currently dealing with?

          • No longer Stuck in West Seattle January 28, 2023 (3:05 pm)

            I started reading this and the first thing that came to mind was is this related the rise of electric bikes? I have real issues with many of these because its basically a little motorcycle and I see a lot of people using them unsafely on bike paths. I have almost been hit several times by them hauling a$$ on the path. I am an avid biker too. I would love to see the number of electric vs non electric bike and pedestrian collisions. I suspect this is the source of that 150% rise…

        • M January 28, 2023 (10:02 am)

          I don’t need to attack you personally, but your argument, on the other hand, makes no sense. Delridge is correct.

        • Ice January 28, 2023 (4:27 pm)

          You realize that pedestrian fatalities have been increasing nation wide since around 2010 right? Did Vision Zero do that?

        • Jon Wright January 28, 2023 (5:09 pm)

          I’m happy to limit my response to your argument.

          First of all, the “5 years of Vision Zero and fatalities are up therefore
          Vision Zero is a failure” is a failure—a failure to differentiate between
          correlation and causation. In the course of my outings, I see plenty of sketchy
          driving maneuvers everywhere, so I’m skeptical that the limited Vision Zero
          changes SDOT has made in the city are somehow killing people. Furthermore, if Vision
          Zero hadn’t been in place, maybe fatalities would have been higher still?

          Then there’s this notion that the single purpose of roads is to move cars as
          fast as possible. Roads are public right-of-way that transit, cyclists, and
          pedestrians also use. Reduced motor vehicle speeds make the roads safer for the
          most vulnerable users (i.e., the ones who aren’t surrounded by a 2-ton metal
          cage).

          As far as blaming Vision Zero for creating “incredibly complex driving
          environments” goes, if someone is perplexed by plastic bollards that demarcate
          a bike lane or center islands that prevent use of the turn lane as a passing
          lane, perhaps they aren’t up to the challenge of operating a motor vehicle.

          The reason that Vision Zero has not achieved more success is because it is
          woefully underfunded, it has to deal with streets that were designed in the 60s
          when safety of pedestrians and cyclists wasn’t a consideration, and a driving
          public that feels freedom to drive as fast as they want is more important than
          any silly safety considerations. Frankly, until that attitude changes this is
          going to be a struggle. Road safety needs a “MADD moment.” Once upon a time,
          driving drunk was considered no big deal until MADD managed to change public
          sentiment. I believe we need a similar effort for road safety.

          And finally, I admit I do not have a rebuttal for the screed about
          streetlights, but I will say it evokes memories of Trump ranting about toilets
          and wind turbines.

  • Chemist January 27, 2023 (8:50 pm)

    Hrm, the speed averages are that high?  The 85th percentile must be even higher.  I wonder what happened with the number of speeders exceeding 10 mph/15 mph.

  • James January 28, 2023 (7:18 am)

    It’s interesting to read how speed limits set in the US is a constant failure. Every morning I run along Fauntleroy and the only time I see drivers adhere to the 25mph limit is right before they slow down to comply with the 20mph school zone area. Last summer we traveled to Scotland for two weeks and we rented a car. Speed limits for school zones were still 20mph, otherwise the limit was 30mph. Sometimes 40mph. These speed limits made so much more sense for city areas than the 25mph limits here in Seattle. Even allowing drivers on Marginal to drive up to 40mph would be better than lowering the limit and wondering why no one here adheres to the posted speeds. I would propose using cameras to track drivers’ speeds, implementing more roundabouts, and ditching 25mph for 30mph in the city.

  • Divergent January 28, 2023 (9:04 am)

    Marginal Way is one of the city’s recognized truck routes. It does not link destinations, does not have any housing, does not have any touristic interest (cement anyone?). Semi trucks need a wide street to make turns so having bike lanes with protections will prevent these trucks to move safely. How many bikes will ever use these lanes compared to trucks? How about using Marginal Way with its current lanes as a traffic diversion for WS major arteries with a sensible speed limit?

    • Amy Thomson January 28, 2023 (12:19 pm)

      Beg pardon, but I live in a neighborhood with a street that connects to W. Marginal Way, and there is the Riverside neighborhood just south of the bridge.  So, yes there are people who live on/near W. Marginal Way and use it every day.

    • K in WS January 28, 2023 (5:31 pm)

      100  to 200 people per day on the low bridge during the upper bridge closure. That’s almost nothing.If all of them continued biking AND chose to use W Marginal, it wouldn’t equal 1/2 of 1% of the number of people that use the road daily AFTER the bridge was opened.I see so many new bike lanes, and so few bikers. A least the transit only lanes get used. 

  • wetone January 28, 2023 (9:21 am)

    I see many issues with SDOT’s plan. Biggest one is impacts related to all the heavy trucking in area. Roadway thru area has many ingress/egress points for accessing businesses. Lane reductions will impact and make area more dangerous as vehicles enter and leave roadway getting up to speed or slowing down to exit, especially heavy trucks using area. As already said SDOT’s  “Vision Zero” idealism has  had opposite results of what SDOT intended. The facts are easy to find. This  city and SDOT can not just reduce traffic on arterials and close streets with the thinking it’s a cure all. People and delivery services will just use different streets throughout area making roadways and intersections  much more dangerous, as Vision Zero has done. Reality is people and businesses need good efficient roadways whether for work, commuting or just a drive. Just as bike riders and walkers need their lanes. This city and SDOT have done a terrible job combining these issues and continue pitting groups against each other…….If city wants better safety results on roadways start holding people accountable for their actions, until that happens things will only get worse. Issues money can’t solve…….

  • Amy Thomson January 28, 2023 (12:21 pm)

    One thing that SDOT fails to consider is the complete lack of sidewalks along stretches of West Marginal Way.  That should be fixed.

  • No longer Stuck in West Seattle January 28, 2023 (3:00 pm)

    I am happy a bike lane is coming in. I ride from Delridge along there to pickup the bike path and the section is a bit scary to use. I generally will stay on the sidewalk until I get to the where the paved bike path starts.

  • E4 January 28, 2023 (6:01 pm)

    When the he’ll are the going to do something about the incessant speeding on 35th ave sw from Morgan to Alaska.  I am so sad and pissed at the Reckless driving of our so called neighbors.  Posting 25 has doing absolutely squat. Time for road diet. Does someone have to get killed for the city to act? 

    • wetone January 29, 2023 (10:03 am)

      E4, why should all be penalized for those causing the issues ? All it takes to start making progress is enforcing current laws, something Washington state, Seattle and many other areas have stopped doing. If you want improvements on 35th or any other roadway its a simple process as was done in past. Mayor Bruce Harrell needs to have SPD officers doing speed traps. Ticket, fine and if needed jail ( if more serious) those breaking the law. It’s called accountability for your actions. Something this city quit doing years ago. As city and SDOT push their Vision Zero, lower speed limits and install speed bumps the vehicles just move to side streets making neighborhoods much more dangerous. We need to keep traffic on arterials.  We don’t need cameras, we need police officers ticketing violators in person as was standard practice in past ;)

    • WS is great January 30, 2023 (4:00 pm)

      E4 you are correct. The road diet worked great south of morgan and we should apply it north. It would be safer, quieter, and there is plenty of room for parking, bus turn out, etc.

      Wetone, the reduction in lanes on 35th would hopefully not penalize anyone. Policing and ticketing is expensive, time consuming, and kinda a waste or limited resources. It trains people to not get caught, not to not speed. If the environment is built so people naturally drive slower, than the problem solves itself and the police can be better used .

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