TRAFFIC/TRANSIT: Tuesday watch, 5th week of West Seattle Bridge closure

James April 21, 2020 (7:10 am)

Anyone interested in organizing a protest for the bridge? And demand a faster schedule? I-35 and Bay bridge and Northridge earthquake all had their bridge repairs done much faster. This is bizarre and weird. Let’s rise up West Seattle!

Brenda April 21, 2020 (9:20 am)

James, yes! I’ve been waiting for this. I’m in and I can recruit!
bill April 21, 2020 (9:24 am)

I’ll organize a protest against inane comments!The bridge disasters you reference had the advantage of Mother Nature doing the demolition to speed up the timeline.The engineering work takes the time it takes. I’d rather not have SDOT wasting staff time responding to the petulant demands of the “FASTER NOW TELL US FASTER NOW” crowd.We should be glad SDOT caught the problem. In case anyone needs a reminder of what could have happened, and evidently many do, here is the I-35 collapse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMdv2wRaqo4
- WSJ April 21, 2020 (10:18 am)
  
  I like the way you think, Bill. 👍
- Jon Wright April 21, 2020 (12:05 pm)
  
  I’m with Bill on the Crusade Against Inane Comments.
KM April 21, 2020 (9:31 am)

Literal lol.
Go gull April 21, 2020 (9:34 am)

No. We should not be organizing protests during a pandemic.

This would only cause a headache, a health concern, and probably require SPD resources. It will not result in a faster resolution.

What this brings to mind is an image of the character Veruca Salt from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory screaming, ‘I don’t care how, I want it now!’
- West Seattle since 1979 April 21, 2020 (11:25 am)
  
  It’s starting to remind me of the protests in Michigan and Virginia, though for a different reason and presumably sans guns and MAGA hats. But just as dangerous during a pandemic! WTH!
Brian Feusagach April 21, 2020 (9:50 am)

“Demanding” a faster schedule will come with trade-offs – what do you want to sacrifice? The most critical objectives of the bridge replacement will be:** To complete the replacement in the shortest possible time, ** To complete the replacement at the lowest possible cost ** To achieve the best quality of workmanship, and ** To execute the replacement with the highest possible safety recordIt is impossible to achieve all four of these objectives concurrently because they are conflicting (self-excluding). To complete the turnaround in the shortest time, overtime costs may soar and quality and safety may be impacted. To complete the turnaround at the lowest cost, the duration and quality may be impacted. To achieve the best quality, duration and cost may be impacted. To achieve the highest safety, costs may be impacted.

Time and cost are always critical and require special attention. These two important objectives can be controlled through detailed planning and scheduling — which is what SDOT is doing.
- WSJ April 21, 2020 (12:45 pm)
  
  Speed, Quality, Cost. You only get to pick two.
Jort April 21, 2020 (2:01 pm)

You can stomp your feet and scream your lungs out until steam comes out of your ears, but none of that will change the fact that we’re done driving the way we used to, period. This isn’t getting fixed on your personal demand schedule, it’s getting fixed on the schedule of safety and proper engineering. In the meantime, get on the bus or ride a bike, unless you prefer to sit in hours of hellscape traffic congestion, because there’s literally nothing you or I or anybody is going to be able to do to change this reality until at least 2022, and likely longer. Adapt.
Jenn April 21, 2020 (8:19 pm)

Yes James I’m in!
TMR April 21, 2020 (10:48 pm)

Yes. I’m in. This is ludicrous and we need to get an immediate fix. This is a priority.

Mark April 21, 2020 (7:51 am)

The road system will be inadequate when people go back to work. People are not going to want to cram into buses together. Here is what should be happening now: (1) work to install 15-20,000 bike stands at Seacrest Park with overhead lighting; (2) add 4, for 5 total, passenger only ferries. This will allow one ferry being in maintenance while the other 4 are in operation. A ferry should be continuously loading/unloading at each dock at all times.The nearest passenger fleet is the Bay Area, but second to that is New York/New Jersey. It may take weeks to secure and relocate this capacity so it should be done now. With the border closed, the Clipper fleet might be available for short term chartering.

Tsurly April 21, 2020 (8:40 am)

Unfortunately your realistic suggestion will be completely glossed over. This is the West Seattle Blog comments section; replace your suggestion of 15-20k bike stalls with “single occupancy vehicle parking stalls” and you will instantly become a hero.
- Trickycoolj April 21, 2020 (9:04 am)
  
  Don’t be so sure about that. I found a few verbatim comment section suggestions from the blog in Herbold’s email last week.
- Eric1 April 21, 2020 (9:26 am)
  
  LOL. bike guys with basic math problems. Realistic? 15-20 K bike stalls? OK I’ll give you that. I’ll give you the 5 ferries so a ferry leaves every 15 minutes plus a spare. I’ll even make it free so you save time loading and unloading. What is it capacity of a Water Taxi? Oh about 250 to make it easier math. Wow. A massive 1,000 passengers per hour. Damn, I only have to get there yesterday to make it into work today. Even if you used the largest WSF ferries with 2500 passengers you would be hard pressed to move 15-20K passengers during commute hours. I won’t even mention where you would dock a 400+ foot vessel in WS.
  - tsurly April 21, 2020 (9:57 am)
    
    Realistic in the sense that solutions need to be alternative/mass transit oriented, not car oriented. Based on my math, there is no way you could even fit 5000 bikes, let alone 15-20K, using every available square foot of space (about 95K) available at Seacrest Park. Don’t trust what I say though because I’m a (real) engineer, and the west seattle blog armchair engineers have made it clear that we (the real engineers) have s**t for brains.
  - WSCommuter2 April 21, 2020 (10:48 am)
    
    Nailed it Eric! You forgot – standing outside during commute hours when the water taxi is full to wait for another 45 min to 1 hour. Been there. Even roping in Argosy ships would do nothing for the people moving problem during commute hours.
    Does anyone know who owns the large empty parking lot just south of Arena Sports on E Marginal?
    - Tsurly April 21, 2020 (11:44 am)
      
      The GSA owns those parking lots, so fat chance you will be allowed to use them.
Go gull April 21, 2020 (8:46 am)

Yes, I like the way you’re thinking.

In considering expanding passenger ferry/water taxi options, I would also suggest the creation of multiple routes/drop off docks. Perhaps one closer to Queen Anne/Belltown, and another in Ballard.

With this kind of system, perhaps there could multiple boats running at the same time, loading and unloading passengers concurrently, and could more effectively get people closer to where they are needing to go.

Perhaps a good starting point right now would be surveying the residents of WS regarding their commute needs, to better understand where people are going and when, to determine what would be most helpful.
- WSCommuter2 April 21, 2020 (10:57 am)
  
  Sure, GoGull, I think surveying WS commuters is fine. However, SDOT has the technology to review all their camera footage of where traffic flows to. Shouldn’t they be advising us? Then we could compare that to survey results. Do we really need citizens to tell SDOT things that should be captured and analyzed by their camera tech and data crunchers? For example, I noticed an oddity – the traffic light at the off-ramp to the high bridge still has a long delay at 4th Ave S. Why? Shouldn’t that just signal green off the ramp only when it gets tripped to keep the flow going in N and S directions on 4th?
  - Go gull April 21, 2020 (11:48 am)
    
    A survey might be one tool for gathering the most current and accurate data from residents, regarding their usual commute needs, and what alternatives they may be interested in utilizing, with or without incentives, etc.
    
    Would it hurt citizens to be helpful in the process?
    - 1994 April 21, 2020 (2:36 pm)
      
      I agree, between SDot and Metro Transit they could create a survey for WS. Burien, and communities a bit further south to capture the zip code for the start of a commute and the destination zip code for employment. SDot, about 2 years ago, was able to send out some survey about ‘equity’ in transit. If SDot can arrange for such a survey surely they can arrange for a crisis management survey because this does not only impact WS bridge traffic but all traffic travelling north through the area.
Anne April 21, 2020 (9:19 am)

I think all ideas should be looked at-even for short term fix when things get up & running again. Have no problem ( even though I’m not a biker) with putting in bike stalls -think parking lot at Don Armeni might be better though. A park & ride someplace where folks can get on transit if they choose. A worry— worst case scenario-the possibility of having to totally close lower bridge if high bridge is found to be so unstable it could collapse. (Am sure this was in WS Blog -but I just saw it in today’s Seattle Times ) Once upon a time the Water Taxi went to 2 places -Pier 66 as well as downtown-was pretty nice to get dropped off a bit farther north an easy walk to Pike Place Market & central downtown.-transit connections.
WSJ April 21, 2020 (10:04 am)

This is by far the most reasonable and practical suggestion. And expand the shuttle service as needed.
J April 21, 2020 (11:29 am)

How about a Fauntleroy to Seattle ferry route?
- Jort April 21, 2020 (2:28 pm)
  
  A ferry can handle, you know, about 150-200 cars at best. That’s .2 percent of the West Seattle Bridge’s traffic. Oh, and it would take about an 45 to 60 minutes to load, navigate and unload. So yeah, the ferry isn’t realistic in any way.

anonyme April 21, 2020 (7:52 am)

I saw a 21 Express go through Arbor Heights last night and again this morning. WTH?

flimflam April 21, 2020 (8:07 am)

i’ve read about contingency plans are being formed to evacuate the lower bridge should the high bridge collapse. that is not very encouraging but obviously they have to think of the worst case scenario.

East Coast Cynic April 21, 2020 (8:17 am)

Following up on the suggestion of adding passenger only (foot ferries?), I’ve seen headlines re the very real possible closure of the low bridge due to cracks in the high bridge. If that happens, it will be an urgent necessity that downtown dedicated passenger ferries for West Seattle be put into place very quickly: Activate Seacrest Park, for the Admiral/Avalon demographic, but also Fauntleroy Terminal for the farther south demographic, e.g., Gatewood, Arbor Heights, Roxbury, Westwood Village, White Center. Buses going the bridge routes the back way with the cars will be a much greater traffic quagmire than what we have now.No hand wringing of sorrow or sympathy from the political class, action will be needed for us in a hurry.

CC in Delridge April 21, 2020 (8:35 am)

I saw on the news that they are considering closing the low bridge because there’s an increasing risk that the high bridge will collapse. This sounds like a nightmare for emergency services. I am scared to think what would happen if we needed to get to the hospital in a hurry. Have you heard anything?

WSB April 21, 2020 (9:17 am)

No, they are not “considering closing the low bridge” just because there’s a risk – they are making plans for possible “worst-case scenarios” such as the high bridge seeming in imminent danger of failure, in which case, closing the low bridge is ONE thing that would have to be done. That’s NOT new though citywide outlets are acting as if it is. It was mentioned again in yesterday’s briefing, covered here:
https://westseattleblog.com/2020/04/happening-now-west-seatttle-bridge-briefing-seattle-city-council/
SDOT and emergency services are working on that contingency plan. See this SDOT Blog post from last friday night.
- Lisa April 21, 2020 (9:30 am)
  
  Nearly spit out my coffee laughing over the fact that NOW they are working on a contingency plan for a worst case scenario.
- miws April 21, 2020 (9:52 am)
  
  And this is why I appreciate WSB’s stick-to-the facts and no hype reporting style over the often sensationalized style of corporate media. I don’t know if CC is watching the same newscast as I am, but all morning in their top and bottom of the hour teasers, as well as the lead-in when the story comes up, they have been wording it and inflecting it as if it is OMG IMMINENT!! Only when do they actually get a little way into the story do they specify that it is a “…worst-case scenario”. —Mike
Ice April 21, 2020 (11:39 am)

You can still go to Highline if you have a medical emergency.
- sf April 21, 2020 (4:57 pm)
  
  But . . (Gasp) that’s in Burien! Which though is a couple miles further is quite accessible and even more so now.Highline (run by CHI Franciscan) has one of the busiest and most capable E.R.s in the region. Highline isn’t the level 1 trauma center but neither is anyone else within 5 states.

West Seattle Lurker April 21, 2020 (8:35 am)

Here’s what happening now; they have no funding for any of these ideas. They don’t even have the 33 million for the plan they outlined so far. The pandemic is further draining their resources. We have a few other ways to get into town, I’m sure people will figure it out.

East Coast Cynic April 21, 2020 (9:04 am)

Do you work for city hall? Do you seriously know the budget realities that justify your opinion?If everything is on the table as the SDOT director said, downtown dedicated ferries from Secrest Park and or Fauntleroy Terminal in the absence of both bridges should be in play as a realistic option for commuters. Buses using 1st Ave S and South Park Bridge with a sea of cars is unacceptable for all commuters.
Admiral Dude April 21, 2020 (9:04 am)

Seattle city budget over recent years shown below. They absolutely should have the money to fix the bridge and provide alternative stopgap modes of transport. If they say they don’t, they need to re-prioritize. Here is a start: cancel all new initiatives and programs created since 2012. There, I found an extra 2.5 billion in this year’s budget.
James April 21, 2020 (10:56 am)

Lurker, get real. They have more than enough especially if they cancel other plans (WSB is a bigger priority than any other SDOT project currently) and our property taxes were just paid so they need to get it it. Mine are over 9k. Go head and do the math on about 100k properties paying about 5-10k a pop.
- Mark B April 21, 2020 (11:25 am)
  
  When doing the math, also be sure to account for the multiple other uses of funds for our property taxes. Schools, EMS, etc. How much of your over 9k goes to SDOT?

Wendell April 21, 2020 (8:55 am)

…and away we go!

Jeff April 21, 2020 (8:56 am)

They need to give back the lane on southbound west marginal next to the native American property during the bridge shutdown.

bill April 21, 2020 (9:10 am)

Yes Jeff, it is essential to get everyone to the stoplight at Highland so much faster!
tsurly April 21, 2020 (10:03 am)

Kbear pointed out yesterday day that the lane was taken away to increase pedestrian safety in that area, because vehicles frequently failed to yield. So no, the lane doe not need to be given back because drivers continue to show a disregard for pedestrian safety. Not that giving the lane back will make any sort of a difference; there is still the choke point at W Marginal Way and Highland Park Way.
- WSJ April 21, 2020 (10:23 am)
  
  “Still a choke point…” that’s what the MORE LANES NOW crowd doesn’t understand about traffic. You could make the middle of W marginal 4 lanes wide (or 35th 5 lanes) and it would do nothing for overall volume because there is always a single lane, or light, that will bottleneck the system elsewhere. There is almost no chance of a backup being introduced because a big open stretch of road is one lane instead of two at any point in the detour route.
  - chemist April 21, 2020 (12:30 pm)
    
    So if we start avoiding changes because there’s a bottleneck again, I guess we could work our way back from the bottleneck of the NB99 ramp not having a dedicated bus lane and start eliminating bus lanes all over West Seattle. Personally, I thought incremental improvements were still improvements, even if imperfect ones, but I’m curious how that’d play out.
    - KM April 21, 2020 (2:18 pm)
      
      Bus only lanes prioritize transit, allowing them the early light, to skip ahead of cars, etc., even when they do have to remerge into a general purpose lane. Adding another general purpose lanes just spread the misery, as we’ve seen time and time again that adding general purpose capacity does not improve travel times. By reducing bus lanes, we would increase the amount of people driving cars (due to busses taking longer) which would be the exact opposite of what would improve our traffic woes.
Kalo April 21, 2020 (10:35 am)

SDOT has stated they are not going to do that – they call it a “safety zone”. That “safety zone” has only been in effect for less than a year. Does the Long House have enough business/events to continue with this lane squeeze going. The Long House lobbied for this “safety zone” for many years, maybe now, we can lobby the Duwamish people to help remove it temporarily.
- tsurly April 21, 2020 (11:06 am)
  
  No, we shouldn’t revert safety measures/road diets/rechannelizations; it would be nothing but a frivolous effort to make drivers think they are going to get somewhere faster . Like I said above, you still have to deal with the choke point at West Marginal and Highland Park Way.Lobby the Duwamish all you want, but I will support them when they, and SDOT, tell you to go pound sand.
  - KM April 21, 2020 (11:27 am)
    
    Exactly this. I also hope someday that drivers who resist safety improvements on roadways will understand that bike lanes, crosswalks, speed reductions, road diets, etc. also improve safety FOR DRIVERS. Not to mention “lobby the Duwamish people” to give up public space is one of the most cringeworthy things I’ve ever read.
- miws April 21, 2020 (11:24 am)
  
  Why should the Longhouse be expected to give up the safety zone they fought so long and hard for? —Mike
  - Joe Z April 21, 2020 (1:16 pm)
    
    Car driving is going to remain drastically lower than pre-COVID in West Seattle as long as the bridge is closed. So we should be doing the opposite–decreasing car lanes and replacing them with bike and pedestrian facilities. Any mitigation plan should include separated bike lanes to the low bridge from every part of West Seattle. For instance, traffic on 35th SW, Fauntleroy, and near the Avalon Triangle is unlikely to return to previous levels, perhaps ever. So it is a good opportunity to build out the bike network.
    - Mark B April 21, 2020 (2:06 pm)
      
      Second that. I’m not 100% comfortable riding in typical (or even current) 35th traffic, and this would get me on my bike from Gatewood to downtown or the water taxi in an instant.

StevenCC April 21, 2020 (9:22 am)

Is there no insurance on any of our infrastructure? Or a performance bond to cover the lifespan of the bridge?!

StevenCC April 21, 2020 (9:29 am)

Is there no insurance on our city’s bridges and infrastructure?

wscommuter April 21, 2020 (10:10 am)

No, no there isn’t. There is never insurance on any infrastructure. During construction of infrastructure, insurance is held by the owner to ensure performance and funding and typically by the contractor and/or design-builder if it is a design-build project. But none of that insurance lasts more than a few years past substantial completion (a contract milestone) of the project.

Mj April 21, 2020 (9:45 am)

Regarding funding: WS is home to over 100,000 people and fixing/replacing the bridge needs to be priority #1. The City has resources they will simply need to re-allocate money from other spending.

Richard April 21, 2020 (9:56 am)

OMG … for a second I thought I clicked on West Lansing Blog dot com by mistake. We’re living with a highly contagious viral pandemic so let’s all gather around with signs, beeping our horns, waving the flag (of course), & chant “build the bridge, build the bridge, build the bridge”. I mean, what could possibly go wrong???

It’s almost 10am, I’m moving on to red.

SML April 21, 2020 (9:57 am)

Is anything going to be done for the intersection at 16th and Holden?

James April 21, 2020 (10:51 am)

We need action now and getting the schedule bumped up! All SDOT projects must be on hold until this bridge is done. This will back up I-5 for miles that even beloved rich north seattle residents will be mad! Two years is unrealistic! You create a gridlock problem to where your taxpayers can’t even get to their jobs in a reasonable amount of time! It took an hour to get home from Northgate area even WITH the bridge. Come on!

Ghost of Bridges Past April 21, 2020 (3:20 pm)

Your ideas are unrealistic. Also, have you considered that the rest of Seattle traffic will likely benefit from the bridge shutdown and likely multi-year absence of many of the vehicles that used to originate from WS? While we consider the bridge our lifeline and an unassailable right, others may view the loss of the bridge as a happy accident.

uncle loco April 21, 2020 (10:52 am)

Just an idea here. They should have 4 boats on the Vashon , Southworth, Fauntleroy route. One boat dedicated for Southworth directly to Coleman dock in Seattle. One for Vashon directly to Coleman dock. One dedicated for Southworth to Fauntleroy and one for Vashon to Fauntleroy. Anyone needing to get from Kitsap county to Vashon can take the Ruston ferry. They can borrow one of the San Juan Island ferries since they don’t want anyone up there anyway.

WSJ April 21, 2020 (11:27 am)

Each of those boats carries around 120 cars, and the Coleman Dock is not able to handle an additional 4 routes docking there. Even in a perfect hypothetical scenario you’re adding maybe 10% of what needed for car traffic, while blowing up the entire ferry system and schedule.
- uncle loco April 21, 2020 (12:47 pm)
  
  It would only be an additional 2 routes at the Coleman dock. Yeah, scheduling is tough so scrap that idea…
Stickerbush April 21, 2020 (1:52 pm)

The ferry system doesn’t have enough boats to consider adding an additional one anywhere, the Triangle route (Vashon/Southworth/Fauntleroy ) normally has 3 boats but if any boat in the system goes in for maintenance then a boat is taken from the Triangle route and it’s down to 2 boats.

Josh April 21, 2020 (12:23 pm)

Roxbury is going to be a thrill! With 2 school zone cams and horrible potholes you have to drive around, I can’t even imagine what this will look like. Intersections like 26th and Roxbury, 16th, and 8th should bring the entire route to gridlock.

SunDevilWS April 21, 2020 (3:08 pm)

I have destroyed so many tires driving on Roxbury. Those get me every time, so I avoid that road like the plague. Now I am not going to have much of a choice.

anonyme April 21, 2020 (12:29 pm)

We need a facility for medical emergencies in West Seattle NOW, more than ever. I’m not talking about those small, private, walk-in clinics, but a real hospital facility. Either that and/or a dedicated helipad for transporting patients to real hospitals outside of what has now become a virtual island.

sf April 21, 2020 (5:03 pm)

Please suggest to prov/swedish, VM, UW Medicine or Kaiser that since you have deemed pill Hill inaccessible and Highline much too far or unacceptable.With the extreme loss of revenue due to the much more significant situation, I’m sure they’ll get right on it.

Railroaded April 21, 2020 (1:26 pm)

It is going to be a big mess commuting out of West Seattle for a very long time. Accept it or whine about it, but it is going to be a big mess for a very long time. Like three years, for certain. Probably longer. Maybe five years. Maybe ten. Get used to it.

sf April 21, 2020 (5:09 pm)

This∆

I’m hoping we can all get to the acceptance stage of the grief process soon. Life is going to change, people will move, businesses will fade and it will all suck. Maybe we can stay ’round here more, shop local and enjoy our ‘island paradise’. The old ways are dying and fast.

P.s. someone suggested zip lines/gondolas. I don’t know why that hasn’t gotten more traction. It would be awesome. Admiral to downtown in 2 min. Whoooooo!
- Go gull April 21, 2020 (7:54 pm)
  
  What about something like the Portland Tram, perhaps? :)
  
  I know not a realistic solution to help with the immediate bridge closure/commuting issues (sorry), but would be great to see more varied and convenient transportation options in the future.
  - Slay April 21, 2020 (8:48 pm)
    
    … l’m on board w/ zip lines, trams, coupled w/ pedal boats, the helipad, a few gondolas, and sea planes, anyone? We got this!
  - KM April 21, 2020 (9:44 pm)
    
    Why? Sure, it’s cute, but you would have to take transit there, transfer to a tram/gondola then transfer again downtown to continue your trip? That would be very disjointed. It’s not comprehensive or integrated and a huge waste of money to develop a new transportation arm when we could be building our existing infrastructure. Transferring between bus/rail is pretty easy, let’s not throw a wrench in it by funding a tourist trap tram.
    - Go gull April 21, 2020 (10:47 pm)
      
      ‘It’s not comprehensive or integrated’
      
      ?
      
      Many people get around by a ‘disjointed’ commute that works fine, utilizing various transportation options that all link up. I think it’s great you can bike, take a bus, ride light rail, all in one trip. Why not a tram as well?
      
      You would simply take it across, much like a water taxi, except from a higher point in WS. You would then have access to bikes, buses, and light rail downtown.
      
      Something like this could also make upper WS more of a destination (good for businesses) via a convenient and scenic Tram trip up to WS. Imagine that ride at Sunset…
      
      Not saying it would make sense for WS or even be feasible. I was just sharing this as a fun idea. I think it’s good to be open minded and imaginative in looking to future solutions.
      
      Also, this Tram isn’t just cute, it holds 79 people in each car and has two cars. In 2016, average ridership was 10,000 a day.

chemist April 21, 2020 (3:04 pm)

With all this added interest in the foot ferries, we might have more issues with limit of 26 or 14 bikes per sailing depending on if you’re in one of the newer ones or the Spirit on Kingston. I’m not sure that has been an issue since the policy came out last summer, but we’re in a whole new world.