FOLLOWUP: Cleanup begins on east side of Myers Way

Buttercup April 11, 2018 (2:07 pm)

So people get to stay WE clean up their debris and they will do this all over again? Why was it not required that if a person wanted to stay they had to participate in the cleanup?

Rick April 11, 2018 (2:34 pm)

Yeah,at taxpayers expense we will be continued into being shamed into paying for others. I’m gettin’ real tired of that BS.

Amanda April 11, 2018 (3:43 pm)

It’s just crazy to me the city has spent $195 million on homelessness in the last few years. Yet, we still do not have solutions to the homeless problem. I am all for helping the homelessness in the city.
My problem is we do not know where all the money went. Not only has the city spent $195 million on homelessness there is a 18% increase in homelessness in the West Coast. Let alone our roads are literally crumbling. It’s just insane……

best policy April 11, 2018 (4:14 pm)

Amanda,

If your problem is sincerely just not knowing “where all the money went” I’m relatively certain you could figure that out.

Actually I just took 20 seconds and did a Google search for you. This was the first result: Seattle and King County Homeless Numbers
- CMT April 12, 2018 (10:25 am)
  
  I doubt the heart of Amanda’s and others’ concerns are addressed by the general categories of where money is allocated as set forth in your link. For example “$10,002,775” for “Homeless Prevention” doesn’t really provide information as to the programs, actions, and allocation of funds for that particular item. Etc.
  
  $195,000,000 is a lot of money and citizens should demand substantive information as to where the money has been spent, particularly as our city looks Dickensian in places.
  - best policy April 12, 2018 (1:34 pm)
    
    CMT,
    
    You’re absolutely right. I only provided a general link–it was 20 seconds of googling and I just clicked on the first link. This information did not provide the specificity that you are asking for.
    
    If what you or Amanda or others want is a specific penny by penny accounting of where the money goes, then I guess I know where this is going, and it’s a common ploy. This is how it goes:
    
    a: Where does all this money go?
    
    b: Well, it goes to these things.
    
    a: Well, that is too general, I want to know specifics!
    
    b: Okay, but I’m not going to do the research for you, but the information is out there. Happy hunting.
    
    a: No it’s impossible to find and we deserve substantive information about where the money went!
    
    b: But… there is substantive information and… oh, never mind you win and I need some bourbon.
    
    I guess, in short (too late, I know), I really don’t think this information is being hidden from you. I know the government and aid agencies get a bad rap (hell, I give them a bad rap myself), but overall they’re pretty transparent. Secondly, I seriously doubt even a full accounting of the money would satisfy you guys. But maybe I’m nuts.
    - CMT April 12, 2018 (4:47 pm)
      
      “Secondly, I seriously doubt even a full accounting of the money would satisfy you guys.”
      
      Jeez – Are you the guy that oversaw the spending of the money or something? Thanks for the imaginary conversation though . .
Question Mark April 13, 2018 (4:16 pm)

Amanda, your thesis seems to be that it’s hard to believe that the pressures that lead people to homelessness have been so bad in the past few years that the expenditure of $195 million in public funds hasn’t been able to reduce the problem.

Perhaps the problem is in fact bigger than we think it is …

Quora April 11, 2018 (3:44 pm)

Exactly, Buttercup. Why can’t their continued illegal camping be permissible only if they clean up the filth they create? Is that really that difficult an ask?

Man, I wish I could break the law AND have the government come clean up after my mess. What catering this is. More like what a complete and utter disgrace.

West Seattle Hipster April 11, 2018 (4:48 pm)

Agreed. I feel like chucking my trash out in the street, wonder how that will work out.

Our leadership is a joke, their solution is to keep raising tax on the middle class so they can waste it under the guise of “fixing” the homeless crisis.

T April 11, 2018 (4:39 pm)

We keep throwing good money after bad at this, year after year, with no conclusion – the city looks like hell and it’s embarrassing and insulting to have to drive by mountains of trash everyday. People who read these comments will conclude we are against homeless people. This couldn’t be further from the truth – we know they don’t deserve to live this way but the city is clueless about what to do. This is a very wealthy city by most city standards and there should be a plan in place by now. That shouldn’t include more taxpayer money. Enough is enough.

flimflam April 11, 2018 (4:51 pm)

its not rocket science – the city/state should enforce all laws equally; rich, poor, etc.

its not a democracy if all laws are not enforced equally…sorry if it goes against the grandstanding tactics employed by the advocates, but you simply cannot have various sets of standards/expectations of citizens.

Best Policy April 11, 2018 (8:32 pm)

Oh, dear sweet you,

What were you taught that you think laws are enforced equally? Laws have never, ever, ever been enforced equally, democracy or not.

Of course the catch here is that the unequal enforcement tends to not exactly favor the poor…
Jethro Marx April 11, 2018 (9:05 pm)

Rocket science, by which I assume you mean Aeronautics, Thermodynamics, Mechanics of Materials, etc., is actually pretty straightforward since it’s mostly math and matter. Social Science is dynamic to a whole ‘nother variable set, because now we’re working with people and social constructs.

I doubt you, or any of the other people hollering about law and order want all laws enforced equally. Shall we put in cameras to cite those who slow to 0.28 mph at a stop sign? Shall we cite those who exceed the speed limit by 3 mph? We could probably bring in some revenue to build housing with such methods, or build jails and internment camps if that’s your cup of tea. Housing either way, I guess. Homeless problem solved, but maybe still embarrassing, what?

CM April 11, 2018 (4:59 pm)

Well, Best Policy, I can read that slick graphic and see that over $98 Million dollars were spent to provide permanent housing. Where exactly did that money go? Let’s just assume a rent of $2000/month for a year is $24000. That’s a bit over 4000 homeless people living in nice apartments. Did that happen? I don’t think so. I believe it’s an honest question.

Best Policy April 11, 2018 (8:30 pm)

Sure it’s an honest question. I’m not sure it was a “slick graphic” (I’m not sure the Seattle Times is a particularly liberal rag), but let’s leave that aside for the moment.

First, I was trying to answer a question someone had: how was the money spent. I tried to do that in what limited time I had. I am sorry that I didn’t answer it fully enough to satisfy you. But I suggest, if you are interested in the specific details, that you follow up–money, especially government money, does tend to be traceable. I have neither the time nor inclination to do this work for you, but trust me–if you really want to know where the money went, GO FIGURE IT OUT.

So yes. It’s an honest question, CM. But what might be a deception is your interest in the (any!) answer. Because I have a feeling that whatever we find out about how the dollars for permanent housing were spent you will still be as grumpy as ever. And frankly, that’s obvious to anyone reading this exchange.
- CMT April 12, 2018 (10:32 am)
  
  Good God. People have legitimate concerns. Stop with the condescending judginess (“Oh Dear sweet you”, etc.). A lot of people have contributed a lot of money to this problem and they shouldn’t have to dig far to find an honest accounting of where the funds were spent and why the vast amounts of money do not appear to have made even a tiny dent in the problem. Notably, your quick google search you used to try to shame another commenter was unable to provide that type of answer.
  - best policy April 12, 2018 (11:33 am)
    
    Sure people have concerns. A number of people wanted information about how the money is being spent. I am working on helping them figure that out. You are correct, my quick google search did not provide all the information people are asking for. So? Sorry for trying? I don’t have the time at the moment to track down the specifics of how all the money is spent–in part because personally I’m not that worried about the specifics. But it seems that a lot of people in this discussion are worried. So…Maybe they should be the ones finding this information? Unless your position is a straight-faced “but it’s too hard to do that!” In which case I’d say maybe you don’t actually care that much.
    - CMT April 12, 2018 (4:37 pm)
      
      Unless your name is Mayor Durkan or other City Official In Charge of Accounting for $195 Million Spent on Homelessness, I don’t think anyone is asking you for the answer. But thanks?
      
      And maybe people have tried to find the information but are met with vague descriptions that don’t really answer the basic question of how the City could have spent $195 million and have made little to no progress. Unless your position is a straight faced “but they say numbers so they must have managed the money properly” I’d say maybe your apparent investment in trying to characterize everyone with concerns as lazy armchair complainers with no critical thinking ability is odd.
- pg April 12, 2018 (12:28 pm)
  
  https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/homeless/how-much-do-seattle-and-king-county-spend-on-homelessness/
  
  I found it interesting that in this article it points out : All Home measures success by looking at how many people left shelter or supportive housing for permanent housing (35 percent from July 2016 to July 2017) how long people stayed in a shelter or supportive housing (74 days on average), what percent of people returned to homelessness, (8 percent), and what percent of beds in emergency shelters are full (80 percent). Right now, only two of those metrics are meeting their minimum standards: returns to homelessness, and what percent of beds in shelters and housing are full.
  
  Honestly, to me that doesn’t sound like a good use of our dollars and I would like to see more accountability and results before my taxes go up (yet) again.
  - best policy April 12, 2018 (1:05 pm)
    
    Yep, I’d like clearer accountability too.
    
    I’d like clear and prior metrics for what constitutes success or improvement, and I’d like specific recourse for when/if metrics aren’t met.
    
    We have access to the data and the hard numbers, but because this is a social issue fraught with emotions and personalities it is sometimes hard to take a non-partisan, impartial look at the data.

Tired in Seattle April 11, 2018 (6:32 pm)

Elected officials in this city don’t really want to solve the homelessness issue or have any fiscal responsibility for the money they collect.

Homelessness lets them pay back their major voting blocks with high paying jobs, City employees union for sure. Kshama Sawat slipped up and actually said it out loud the other day ‘we can take the money and create good paying union jobs’; wonder who her major donor is?

She is calling Seattle a playground for the rich http://mynorthwest.com/950649/kshama-sawant-says-seattle-is-a-playground-for-the-rich-calls-for-amazon-protest/

Her Union buddies make over $300k/year.

Jethro Marx April 11, 2018 (9:14 pm)

You think councilmember Sawant’s major voting bloc is rich people working in Social Services? Did she win with like, three votes?

Those union workers are doing better than I thought, though; I’d think my neighbor in the carpenters’ union would live on the good side of 35th, if he’s pulling down $300,000 a year. Maybe he donates most of it to city councilmembers to encourage more homelessness.

northsea April 11, 2018 (6:46 pm)

I glad to hear that this area is being cleaned up…… What is the city doing to keep from having to pay to clean it up again. If we are not going to move the camp then give them garbage cans and pick up, and Sani-cans. What is the city doing about the run down non running RV parked on Alki. Is there not a city parking lot that they can be moved to and away from one of the most beautiful spots in Seattle.

WSB April 11, 2018 (6:55 pm)

No, there’s not a city parking lot. The Times wrote about that this week. You might recall that a couple years ago, there was a proposal for a “safe lot” in the Highland Park area next to a former encampment site, but that never came to pass. We count the RVs on Harbor Avenue at least once a week and did notice the other day that the total has jumped from the usual average – it used to hover around 10 and the other day we counted 18, 17 of them east/south of Salty’s, plus one much closer to the actual Alki area. – TR

CM April 11, 2018 (11:04 pm)

Best Policy, you may have me confused with some other poster, since I rarely post here, and am certainly not “as grumpy as ever”. I was just pointing out the math. No, it’s actually not that easy to find out where the money went. No, my use of the term “slick graphic” had nothing to do with the political slant of the Seattle Times, your link showed a graphic which I thought was overly done. Sorry if that implies something other than that to you. My question is simple. If we spend this much money, what is actually being done? Were 4000 homeless given an apartment last year? The answer is no. So perhaps you can understand my concern about where those tax dollars are really going. Since this is the first time I’ve ever commented on the issue, I fail to understand your reply to my post.

best policy April 12, 2018 (7:56 am)

CM,

My comment about continuing to be grumpy reflects my belief that whatever numbers or information you get you will not be happy. You say you just want to know how the money labeled ‘Housing’ was spent, but you have expended zero effort on that front–which confuses me.

But I’ll bite. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I’ll assume all you really want is a more informed view of how the money is spent. The best way for you to do this is start with some reading on the matter–preferably from sources as primary as you can get.

I will help get you started. First, please pay attention that the numbers in the Seattle Times article I linked are for Seattle AND King County–so if you only care about Seattle numbers you’ll have to do some revising. Next, I would suggest the following article Seattle Homeless Systems Performance. It is a bit out of date but has specific sections regarding both transitions to permanent housing and permanent housing per se.

Then we have a couple articles from local newspapers that follow a shift in strategy to focus more on permanent housing: Performance of local homeless programs and Prioritizing permanent housing.

So, again, to address your concern I can recommend only one course of action: do as much research as you can. You can start with what I’ve offered and linked, but don’t take my (internet stranger’s) word for it–dig in and find what you want to know. There is a LOT of information out there specifically about what you want to know.
- Amanda April 12, 2018 (10:36 am)
  
  Best Policy,
  
  Much like CM I do not post all that often. I was simply posing the question where is all the money going? Yes, we know $178 million was spent on homelessness found the information from the Seattle Times before I even posted my original post. We can trace that $84,993,406 was spent on emergency shelter, transitional housing, rapid re-housing, permanent supportive housing, other permanent housing. Doing some simple math roughly $93,006,594 has been spent very vaguely. The $93 million has not been budgeted like the $83,993,406 million. The budget on homelessness was found in the link provided: https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/pathwayshome/FS.pdf. More my question is where is the rest of the money going? I am thankful the city is removing the garbage along Myers Way. We as taxpayers are footing the bill I am sure some of the 93 million is being spent to remove trash. At the end of the day there needs to be accountability on homelessness budget. I just find the money being spent on homelessness baffling.

lou April 12, 2018 (7:07 am)

coddling the criminal colony east of Myer’s Way only encourages their abuse of everyone in our neighborhood.

Huck April 12, 2018 (8:19 am)

I have family visiting from Canada and I overheard them say that “Seattle is a dirty city”.

Is this what you want people to say about your City??

It’s embarrassing.

BornonAlki59 April 12, 2018 (12:36 pm)

Yes, sadly Huck its gone past embarrasing to unsanitary and unsafe. I was born and raised in Seattle, have since retired to the Olympic Peninsula, a lifetime goal of ours.

We come back to Seattle every now and then, and all I can say is wow, not good.

We were thinking about a Mariner 20 game package this year, walk on the Bremerton ferry to Safeco. Not going to happen. You couldnt pay me enough to walk from Safeco to Coleman dock before or after a game without my trusty S&W…sorry to say.

Pat LeMoine April 12, 2018 (8:45 am)

Good money to make the homeless more comfortable so that we can continue to see their bad behavior and criminal activity here on Myers Way. This used to be a good neighborhood, now we literally live in a state of terror on high alert.

rico April 12, 2018 (9:27 am)

But Lou, the self titled compassionate supporters of the homeless $$$ flush, don’t want to deal with reality. It only limits the ability of them to feel good from the deceptive conclusion that they are helping to reduce the problem. The reality, as any critical thinker can figure out, shows a degradation of the situation. This is the category of people who are enabling another category to rapidly drag this city into the toilet.

Having grown up as a long time resident, it is simply sad and frustrating.

Tired in Seattle April 12, 2018 (9:43 am)

Pretty clear where your neighbors dues go, not back to him/her. I bet the union bosses and city council member live on the better side of 35th.

Follow the money it’s pretty easy to see who’s agenda the city council members push.

If the city council members want to tax rich businesses in Seattle, be sure to start with city employees; 14,000 plus employees, over 5,000 who make $100k/year.

https://www.watchdog.org/issues/labor/meet-the-bosses-america-s-highest-paid-labor-union-officials/article_ca3b3afe-aee0-528d-8e55-cfde55849f45.html

WSB April 12, 2018 (10:46 am)

Don’t know where “the union bosses” live but we have two City Councilmembers residing in West Seattle and they live on both sides of 35th. District representative Lisa Herbold is a longtime Highland Park resident. At-large councilmember Lorena González lives in The Junction. – TR

Citizen Sane April 12, 2018 (9:45 am)

One of the big reasons why our homeless policies fail over and over stems from our refusal to see the problem for what it is, and our refusal to ask ourselves hard questions.
We are fighting a 2018 problem with 1930s policies. We need to abandon our romantic notions of who the homeless are. Despite what the City Council wants to believe, the modern homeless are not latter-day Tom Joads fleeing the Dust Bowl, simply looking for work and dignity. If our homeless wanted to work, why are Eastern Washington growers crying for laborers? Why are there ‘help wanted’ signs all over town?

The reality is that the modern homeless are (largest groups first) (1) Drug and alcohol abusers, (2) Mentally ill, (3) felons and registered sex offenders, (4) the ‘situationally homeless [people who’ve lost jobs/apartments, domestic violence cases and such], (5) runaways and ‘lifestyle vagrants’.

Each requires a different approach. Giving addicts a free apartment where they can drink and drug to their heart’s content is lunacy. Some will respond well to help, others like the mentally ill need to be housed in safe and dignified surroundings. Others simply need a good hard kick in the posterior.

We must also be honest and ask if Seattle taxpayer’s pockets are deep enough for us to be the nation’s ‘lifeboat’. Like it or not, our homeless population grows because we attract homeless people. City Hall refuses to ask the homeless ‘Where did you live the last time you had a full-time job and a home?’ If they did, we’d know the truth: our homeless problem isn’t home-grown. When you have mayoral candidates like Cary Moon declaring that people have ‘An inherent right to shelter’, does that mean we have to house and feed everyone who comes here with no job, no place to live, no prospects, and no plan?

Seattle taxpayers have reached a tipping point. It’s time to elect CMs who will ask the hard questions, and work for the good of the whole city, not just a handful of deeply entrenched interests like SHARE/WHEEL and LIHI.

For starters, CM Lisa Herbold must go. Along with Kshama Sawant and Mike O’Brien, she has done more to ruin this city than anyone.

West Seattle Hipster April 12, 2018 (11:02 am)

Nail on head. Many of the new wave of homeless would prefer to live on the streets or squat illegally because there are too many rules associated with shelters and permanent housing.
best policy April 12, 2018 (11:16 am)

Look. I’m glad you are engaged, and I agree things must be done, but your post really isn’t helping matters.

“The reality is that the modern homeless are (largest groups first) (1) Drug and alcohol abusers, (2) Mentally ill, (3) felons and registered sex offenders, (4) the ‘situationally homeless [people who’ve lost jobs/apartments, domestic violence cases and such], (5) runaways and ‘lifestyle vagrants’.”

Where did you find this information? I mean… I don’t even know quite where to start. Rhetoric aside, do you really believe that out of the homeless population there are more felons and registered sex offenders than people who are there because they lost jobs? How many registered sex offenders do you think are out there?! If you actually want to know statistics about who the homeless are, information is not too hard to find. I suggest a quick reading of this article: Myths About Seattle’s Homeless, and if you want more information this full survey (from 2016 but not too outdated): Homeless Needs Assessment.

“City Hall refuses to ask the homeless ‘Where did you live the last time you had a full-time job and a home?’ If they did, we’d know the truth: our homeless problem isn’t home-grown.”

Not to put too fine a point on it, none of this is true. First, Seattle regularly asks that question of the homeless–in 2017, for example, that question was asked in a census of the homeless (Seattle/King County Homelessness Census, 2017 (page 9)). Second, 77% of the homeless were in King County already when they became homeless.

Am I saying every single homeless person in Seattle is from Seattle? Of course not. But to blithely claim the data is not collected and then imply that most of the homeless are not from Seattle? That’s not cool.

Now please note that I haven’t disagreed with any of your politics–I am just trying really hard to correct misinformation. I think that it’s important we all start with a similar understanding of the matter before moving on to discussions about politics and policies. If we can’t agree on the basic facts a matter it will be impossible to have an adult conversation about that matter.
- Willow April 13, 2018 (8:19 am)
  
  I want to THANK YOU, ‘best policy’ for your heroic efforts to share and lead people to facts and data in this discussion – it’s noticed, and deeply appreciated.

My two cents ... April 12, 2018 (12:40 pm)

Can’t help but think and wonder if the homeless issue and the associated public reaction would be potentially softened if the various homeless encampments around practiced some self-monitoring and actions towards keeping a clean campsite. Areas that look like trash dumps do not solicit good will or empathy from the community as a whole.

best policy April 12, 2018 (1:21 pm)

I agree, but I think it’s also more complicated. I think part of the difficulty when it comes to this is visibility–when a homeless person is aggressive or drunk or loud or whatever it tends to be very noticeable. But when a homeless person is acting normally you probably wouldn’t even know they are homeless. And so you tend to overestimate how many of the homeless are of the obnoxious sort.

Same with encampments. The small and well-kept and tidy encampments tend to not get noticed, either by media or the public, and so we downplay how many there are. And on the other hand, the sketchy and dirty campsites are much more visible–both because of media coverage but also just because they sprawl and smell and can attract/harbor all sorts of problems.

So yeah, I agree that cleaner and safer encampments would help with the public reaction, but I think that’d be mitigated by much less exposure. What’s the old phrase, “If it bleeds it leads”?
- Uh April 12, 2018 (11:56 pm)
  
  @bestpolicies- just trying to process all of your rambling oppositions has left me exhausted. You win!
  - best policy April 13, 2018 (7:53 am)
    
    If you are referencing my comments above to My Two Cents: I didn’t have any real disagreement, so yeah, you probably didn’t “process” my comment very well.
    
    I was simply pointing out a common cognitive bias: when we see a messy homeless camp we overestimate the percent of camps that are messy. When we see a clean and tidy homeless camp we tend not to notice and so underestimate how many are clean and tidy.
    
    This ties back to how easy it is to court public empathy by way of clean and well-kept camps.
    
    Hope reading this one left you less exhausted than before!
    - Uh April 13, 2018 (1:18 pm)
      
      I’m refering to all of it- because you just keep going around and around with no clear point- just trying to shut everyone down. That’s why I declare you winner, in the hope that you’ll stop.

Worst Policies April 12, 2018 (8:50 pm)

Strange how that slick graphic looks like a toilet bowl flush.

“For starters, CM Lisa Herbold must go. Along with Kshama Sawant and Mike O’Brien, she has done more to ruin this city than anyone.” This is gold.

1994 April 12, 2018 (8:57 pm)

My Two Cents is spot on.

The homeless, along with all of us, need to have more respect for the environment and others.

Randy on Rose April 13, 2018 (6:05 pm)

It always amazes me that the homeless are about half of 1% of the population of Seattle.
My understanding is that a major problem with how the City of Seattle spends and has spent money on homelessness is so much of the money historically is/has been focused on supporting people to live on the street, and not supporting them to move off the street into housing.
This is what the consultant the previous mayor’s office hired said. The report said the city has enough money currently devoted to the level of homelessness we have, but we’re not spending it to move people off the street and into housing. We’re spending it to keep people in place on the street.
2017 was the first year that the human services department changed their contracting criteria to give awards of money to groups that could demonstrate they successfully move people off the street. Those awards were issued late last fall, so the groups receiving the funds maybe have hardly had a chance to receive the money and start moving people off the street for this year.
Another example is the navigation team, which was only started one year ago, is doing really great work, but they need to be 10 times the size and number of staff to actually make a dent in the number of homeless on the streets of Seattle. That requires the city council to spend money on expanding the navigation team istead of things like the downtown streetcar or whatever.
Another current bottleneck that is stopping people in the sanctioned encampments from getting into housing is there is not enough subsidized housing available to move them into, so they get warehoused in these encampments instead of the encampments being a stepping stone to move people quickly from being on the street into transitional housing.

Yes I agree the way the City of Seattle has been and is dealing with homelessness is the way that has the worst outcomes for every single person/sector of society involved and is the most expensive.

And you know what? It’s our fault, it is the fault of the citizens of the city for not standing up loudly in a unified voice and telling our elected officials “Seattle is one of the wealthiest cities in the richest country on the face of the Earth, and it isn’t a lack of money for why we don’t have enough housing to address the level of homelessness we have, which is only one half of one percent of the population.”

Last year of the city council thought they did a good job because they committed money to building 1,000 units of subsidized housing over the next five years. Well what they’re really saying is they committed to keeping 4,000 homeless people on the streets by not building enough housing for them too, with all the negative impacts to our communities, and business districts, and the shamefulness of allowing our fellow citizens to live like that.
Maybe we don’t need a downtown Waterfront Park until after we build enough housing to house all of the homeless. Remember, the way we’re dealing with homelessness is the most expensive way possible with the most negative outcomes for every part of our society. It’s very expensive to do things the way we are and have been doing it. We could save money and imptove our quality of life just by committing to building enough housing to get all of the about 5,000 homeless people off the streets and into housing.

Start telling your elected officials you refuse to vote for them no matter how good they are on other issues, until they commit to building 5,000 units of housing within the next three years. The city already owns enough property, and has enough money in the budget if it stops spending it on other things, to build 5,000 units of housing in the next three years.