‘Nickelsville’ deadline countdown: How Union Gospel Mission has been working to relocate campers

By Tracy Record
West Seattle Blog editor

Two months gone since the vote, eight days to go, until the deadline city leaders set for closing the West Seattle site to which the encampment that calls itself “Nickelsville” returned two years ago.

On Friday, we reported on the Westside Interfaith Network‘s plan to hold nightly vigils for a week, from tomorrow through next Saturday (August 31st) – not to demand that the encampment be allowed to stay open, but simply, WIN’s Mary Anne deVry says, to remind the greater community that homelessness remains an unsolved problem.

After publishing that story, we talked with Terry Pallas from Union Gospel Mission, which has an agreement with the city to find housing and services for Nickelsville “campers” with the money (up to $500,000) that City Councilmembers voted in June to spend.

How is it being spent?

As we noted in an update to yesterday’s story, first thing Pallas wanted us to know was the updated number for how many people they had relocated. As of Friday – 47, he said, eight through “travelers’ aid,” which means they were moving to another town or state to move in with family members, and Pallas said, “We’ve been able to verify that through case management.” Among them, he says – a couple and their 11-year-old son who have just moved back to Texas to be with family.

The other 39 people have moved to transitional apartments or gone into facilities to get assistance with addiction recovery or domestic-violence safe housing, according to Pallas. They have leased 20 apartments in private buildings, he says, with UGM signing corporate leases and guaranteeing the rent for up to a year via the city funding, and the residents have case managers: “The goal is, we’re trying to qualify folks to sign onto a lease of their own within a year.” The apartments are fully furnished, with donations to UGM comprising much if not all of the furnishings. And as the residents start getting on their feet, it’s hoped they’ll be paying “some program fees on a sliding scale,” says Pallas, and that will all go back into the fund that started with the city’s half-million dollars: “We’re trying to make that stretch as far as possible.”

The relationship between Nickelsville itself and the UGM is not formal, and camp residents are not required to check it out. So, we asked, given that, how does it work?

Pallas says a “case-management team of three full-time Union Gospel Mission employees (is) specifically assigned to Nickelsville” and works from a tent set up at the encampment, doing assessments. Those assessments, he says, include determination of “what major obstacles in their life – mental health, addiction, legal barriers – have kept them from qualifying for housing.” He notes that there’s “been a lot of legal need down there,” and so they’ve brought in the UGM legal team, another resource the organization has added to try to make this work. Overall, they are following “the same model (in which) we do a lot of things – ‘doing it with, instead of doing it to’ – we sit down side by side and figure out how we can (work) together.”

So far, he adds, they have met with 26 people who “self-identify that they are in active addiction -heroin, crack, meth.”

And yet, with 47 “relocations,” the population of Nickelsville is larger than it was when UGM was brought in. Maybe 80, 90 people then, 125-150 now, Pallas says. “Every time our case-management team moves somebody else out, there’s somebody else there that takes their place.” He says it was a flaw from the start – “without closing the front door, it’s impossible to reduce the number.”

So is there some way this could have worked better?

First, he stresses that relocating 47 people is “significant.” And “while … we haven’t been able to get everybody into a housing option, I think it has proved to be a good model – we have been able to house families, we have been able to house same-sex (couples), married, non-married (people), all across the board, we have been able to serve a lot of the demographic that’s in Nickelsville. … Two months is a very short amount of time for that many folks (to be relocated), so we feel like the 47 that have been served and moved on is a great success and it’s just the beginning – we feel the model itself is working well.”

But time – at least, time on the clock started by elected officials in June – is running out. As noted in our Friday story, the mayor’s office won’t speculate on what’ll happen September 1st, one week from tomorrow, if Nickelsville hasn’t emptied, either by a sudden wave of relocations or by finding new sites. The encampment’s Central Committee said yesterday via Facebook that the latter is a likelihood:

… We are working hard to get ready to move on the first of September.

We will be moving to three sites, two of which are ready to go. If a third site doesn’t come through we will have to stand our ground at Nickelsville. Please remember that we could really use your help, both in moving or simply standing in support. …

More to come in our Sunday report. Our prior coverage of the encampment – dating all the way back to its founding at the same West Seattle site five years ago – is archived here, newest-to-oldest.

38 Replies to "'Nickelsville' deadline countdown: How Union Gospel Mission has been working to relocate campers"

  • West Seattle Hipster August 24, 2013 (8:52 pm)

    Bravo to WSB for such a comprehensive and informative article regarding the illegal encampment. Thank you for keeping West Seattle so informed on this issue.

    • WSB August 24, 2013 (10:52 pm)

      Thanks for your kind words, WS Hipster.

  • Laura August 24, 2013 (10:30 pm)

    I tried posting on an earlier article, but it apparently didn’t take. The reality is the encampment solution is ineffective and inadequate in dressing the needs of homeless folk – children in particular. There’s been an influx of new residents since the decision has been made to close the encampment because, for reasons that I can’t understand, 211 has been referring and the camp has been allowing more people in. Its seems manipulative. Despite the intention of the camps’ supporters, they are contributing to the continuation of a messed up solution/system. The camp needs to close. We need to invest in better supports so that people in crisis can find solutions that work. Living in a tent on land that floods, with no running water, and not enough food is NOT an adequate nor safe solution, particularly for children.

  • Chris W. August 24, 2013 (10:36 pm)

    Thank you!

  • sna August 24, 2013 (11:09 pm)

    There were 80 to 90 residents living there when the closing and $500k of relocation assistance was announced. 47 of those were relocated and now there are 120 to 150 residents. 80+ new people moved in.

    This is a great example why 10 year plans and the like to end homelessness will never work to reduce homeless counts (at anything less than national level). The very act of giving assistance results in attracting even more that need assistance. This isn’t to say we should do nothing, just commenting on the impossibilty of the challenge.

    If you were homeless and heard they were giving away a year of free rent, wouldn’t you move into Nickelsville?

  • Heather August 24, 2013 (11:52 pm)

    I have to admit, although flawed (influx of new residents), I think this is the first I’ve ever heard of any residents being offered a possible step out of homelessness…relocation assistance, legal aid, etc. at least directly to a homeless camp.

  • Joel August 25, 2013 (8:24 am)

    if you are renting your home….be careful you may think you are renting to one person and then 90 people show up in the backyard with tents. it’s not like it would be the first time that’s happened…..

  • flimflam August 25, 2013 (9:03 am)

    so even though the camp is being closed, all the sudden 80+ new folks have moved in? got a whiff of that $500k did they?

  • Del Martini August 25, 2013 (9:16 am)

    “The city of Seattle invests more than $30 million annually in services for the homeless, and we increase every year,” he stated. “We are so well known for our compassionate approach that more than half of those who are in shelters do not list a Seattle address as their last previous home.” City Council Member Richard Conlin. Conlin enumerated the problems with expanding encampments in Seattle and reminded us that the City of Seattle already does far more to help the homeless than other jurisdictions in King County and the region.


  • Del Martini August 25, 2013 (9:19 am)

    On August 5th, West Precinct SPD Captain Jim Dermody illustrated the point in an email detailing a recent incident downtown:

    “On Friday morning, while assisting Parks Department Rangers moving sleepers along from Waterfront Park, one particular individual, an adult male 25 years old would not leave. Rangers called SPD. At 7:30 AM, my officers arrived and found the person to be belligerent with them, as well. After using the “F” word numerous times at, about and to my officers and attempting to bite one of them, he was arrested for trespass and attempted assault. The male, in Seattle for only a week from Fayetteville, Arkansas, said after he was arrested, ‘I have asked everyone where the shelters and the free eats are around here and no one will talk to you, they just ignore you…I thought this was a homeless friendly city.’”


  • Susan August 25, 2013 (9:47 am)

    I think Nickelsville is just the tip of the iceberg. So many people are having their homes foreclosed upon, so many jobs don’t pay a “living” wage thus forcing people/families to apply for food stamps and other social services…picture these things happening to you and think about what you would do if you found yourself homeless. I know that’s hard for many people to contemplate who have nice homes and cars and decent salaries, but lives can and do deteriorate for many reasons. The “problem” of homelessness and places like Nickelsville won’t go away until we as a society change our priorities and stop putting sports arenas and mega tunnels before basic human needs. The “CCC” camps of the 20’s and 30’s helped many young people by putting them to work and gave them a place to live with decent food, while they built roads, trails, and many of the bridges that still stand today in parks, etc. My mother’s cousin was one of those young men and he went on to be prosperous when the economy improved…so, there are solutions if only our politicians have the will to implement them. Branding Nickelsville as an “illegal encampment” and having the police roust them out only further marginalizes people and forces their hand…wake up and see that homelessness isn’t going to go away, in fact it is increasing and you could be the next person facing such a life dilemma. Do you want to live in your car or pitch a tent in a greenbelt somewhere or be threatened with eviction from the safety of a camp? Come down from your position of “entitlement” and put yourself in someone else’s shoes…become humane, become human. Tell the politicians that we won’t accept anything less than that.

  • JanS August 25, 2013 (9:52 am)

    flimflam…the people who arrange shelters for people downtown, called 211, actually have no shelters available, so they continue to refer people to Nickelsville. Therein lies the problem. There is no place for these people to go downtown…

  • flimflam August 25, 2013 (11:28 am)

    I think Del Martini’s posts sum it up pretty well. its one thing to want to help people (especially if they want to, you know, work…) but another thing entirely to get to the point where you are actually attracting homeless people to the city by way of the reputation we’ve developed in the homeless “community”.

    the share/wheel folks seem to consider work insulting somehow and view there situation as a lifestyle choice. the fact that the city actually gives them money is astounding. I guess i’m just a big meanie…

  • JanS August 25, 2013 (12:52 pm)

    there but for the grace of…whoever your higher power is, flimflam. Now that you have voiced how you feel, what is your solution for these people? I know some who have been in NV, and have moved on. They are not all there because it’s a lifestyle choice, or because they are “bums”, looking for a handout. Give solutions…tell us how you would remedy the situation.

  • Heather August 25, 2013 (1:02 pm)

    I took a friend in (for a year) who was facing homelessness after a 3 year job loss. I was truly shocked at the total lack of programs I thought were available to her. Most of them are simply gone or are only available if you are in a shelter – and believe me I filled out a ton of paperwork verifying she had zero income. It takes a long time to get back on your feet after you’ve been wiped out. I certainly do not think Nickelsville is a solution nor was it meant to be – had she been there she would have never been able to find the white collar job she is now employed at in OR. Sometimes you just have to chip away at truly enormous problems.

  • West Seattle Hipster August 25, 2013 (1:20 pm)

    Del Martini, thank you for providing some useful information. Unfortunately, Seattle has become a magnet for those choosing to live the homeless lifestyle.

    Most of us struggle to find the solutions for problems in our own lives, so solving the problems of others can be overwhelming. However, here are some of my solutions to those choosing to live in the illegal encampment:

    1) Live within your means. Quit smoking, eating unhealthy foods, drinking alcohol and/or using drugs. Budget whatever money you have for what you need to survive.

    2) Find gainful employment. While the economy is nowhere near where it was during the Clinton years, it is slowly improving, and I am noticing many help-wanted signs at local establishments. I would take whatever job I could get, and slowly build a solid work history.

    3) Volunteer in the local community. Give back to the community that has supported you for years. Almost weekly there are notices in the WSB for volunteer opportunities in West Seattle, not once have I seen a story where the citizens of the illegal encampment donated their time. By volunteering you are able to network and perhaps discover employment opportunities, and it always looks good on a resume.

    4) Stop relying on others for help, learn to become self sufficient and independent. I find it ironic that we demand that our seafood and vegetables be self sustaining, but we do not expect that from our fellow human beings.

    For many folks at this illegal encampment, they can find the solution to their problems by taking a good hard look in the mirror. Luck is the residue of design, and waiting for others to solve your problems is a recipe for failure.

  • JanS August 25, 2013 (3:30 pm)

    have you ever tried to find a job with no phone, no address, no decent clothes except those donated to you? I’m betting not. You make it sound so easy, bootstraps and all that.

    Because you don’t hear about them volunteering, doesn’t mean they don’t do it.

    And…please, define the “homeless lifestyle”…I’m betting many of these people would not decide in their life that they would be happier living in a crappy tent that may leak, in a contaminated field that floods every fall, only having donated food and an outhouse….no electricity, no running water, etc…does that really sound like a good alternative to you?

    And you speak as if being addicted to drugs and alcohol is a decision that one can change at any given moment of the day. Know personally any drug addicts? Have you asked them? Alcoholics? It takes a lot of work and commitment, knowing that one can fall off the wagon at any time – I’m pretty sure NV provides lots of counselling for that..yeah, right.

    Do I wish the NV’s of the world didn’t exist? Damned right. But please remember these are not people we should look down our noses at, thinking that we’re a bit better because we “have it together”. That can go away in the blink of an eye.

  • WSGirl August 25, 2013 (5:51 pm)

    I would strongly encourage people to visit the people at Nickelsville to understand how they became homeless. There are families who have had one tragedy after another hit them, domestic violence victims & their children (shelters do not accept boys 11 & older – where else do they go??), people with severe health issues (a man died of lymphoma at Nickelsville last weekend), and way too many babies & childeren, who have no choice but to be homeless if their parent(s) is/are.
    Try talking them face-to-face and tell them to “take a good hard look in the mirror”. I have had those same feelings & sentiments that some of you have stated, but when you meet these people and hear their stories, you realize they do not want to be homeless and to live in a swamp with rats. (Most are horrified they ended up there!) I strongly urge you to attend one of the vigils happening every night this week. It will change your life – and your heart.

  • West Seattle Hipster August 25, 2013 (5:52 pm)

    So Jan, what are your solutions to homelessness? I guess mine didn’t cut it.

    And, please refrain from being judgmental. I for one do not look down on these people, for I have walked in their shoes. What they are experiencing has happened to me when I was younger could happen to me and my family in a heartbeat, which terrifies me. It is also my motivation for working 2 jobs and being away from my family for the better part of 14 hours a day.

    Yes, I have known drug addicts (most of whom have left us) and am myself a functioning alcoholic. You are correct, changing that behavior is extremely difficult. But is an illegal encampment the best environment to receive treatment?

  • MrJT August 25, 2013 (6:19 pm)

    It would interesting to hear the NV “poor camper” explanation in regards to the pile of trash that has been growing on the North side NV. Obviously intentionally tossed right over the pallet board fence. Nice….

    I’m only waiting for the cry on here to go down and help them clean it up…

    I would hope that a good portion of the money that has been extorted to move them is used to clean the site after they finally get out.

    They have conned their fair share in this community and its time for them to get their $h!t together and give back instead of always taking.

    • WSB August 25, 2013 (7:45 pm)

      We are just back from the first night of local church members keeping vigil along the street outside Nickelsville. We drove the perimeter first and I didn’t see a pile of trash anywhere along its perimeter, FYI. Anyway, separate story to come. – TR

  • JanS August 25, 2013 (7:08 pm)

    West Seattle Hipster…just read the post after your last one, and you’ll see what attitudes there are about the homeless. People could give a rat’s A$$ about why they’re there. If they’re homeless they’re takers, bums, who deserve nothing.

    My solution? I’m not really sure. I wish the powers that be would have set up counseling tents at NV to help those with addictions. Mental health counseling, real answers, instead of making them seek it out themselves. If they don’t know where to look, how can they find the help they need? Yet the people who run these camps, NV esp., don’t bother. They want them to attend sit-ins, or get barred from camp. Yeah, that’s the ticket, make an already homeless person feel more like crap by making them even more homeless. The powers that be at NV wanted the camp to be self governing by the campers themselves. It wasn’t exactly the case, and if they didn’t toe the line they were kicked out – that helps, huh. These people needed help from the beginning…yet bus tickets were taken away if they didn’t do what was told. How can you look for a job when your day is taken with obligations to the camp and the people who run it, or you’re out on the street? Better people running the place, with counseling, real counseling, instead of making them shuffle from here to there, fill out the paperwork, take a place in line, sorry there’s a waitlist, etc.etc. It’s demoralizing. And the city should have taken an active roll in this encampment from the beginning, instead of leaving them to their own devices. And help, if it’s financial, would be timelimited. We’ll help you find a roof over your head, we’ll keep your family together, but only for a bit. You have to show us that you want to make an effort to get out of your situation. For those addicted, treatment, counselling, to help get them off whatever they are addicted to. And, people stepping forward..regular people, who have alternative ideas…like this story : http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/york-city-programmer-homeless-man-software-coding-classes/story?id=20042021 . Give a man a fish, he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish he’ll eat for a lifetime.

    Instead you have people like Mr JT, who looks at them like they smell, they’re takers,conmen,parasites, that they somehow owe him…sigh

  • West Seattle Hipster August 25, 2013 (8:00 pm)

    Jan, thanks for the response, I think those are valid solutions. I also feel that counseling should have been provided at NV (mental health, drug, financial, etc) but I feel Scott Morrow has done little to help the residents there.

    It’s a shame that Morrow and Share/Wheel did not provide leadership to these folks. From what I have read, it seems that they were used as pawns.

  • D.D.S. August 25, 2013 (8:30 pm)

    West Seattle Hipster, You hit the nail on the head.
    Jan S. Swing and a miss, But I bet You Feel Good.

  • miws August 25, 2013 (10:18 pm)

    Jan S. Swing and a miss…..


    D.D.S. as a guy who was a Homeplate Ump a couple years ago, I call it as Jan hitting a Grand Slam.



  • JanS August 25, 2013 (11:30 pm)

    WS Hipster…I totally agree about Scott Morrow…I think eventually we will hear more about him and Share/wheel (and hopefully not in a good way). He has done nothing for those campers, except maybe line his pockets. Just an opinion, of course. And, yes, the counselling should have been provided from the beginning.Would have helped a lot of people move on.

    DDS…I noticed that you have no solutions….just snark about other commenters. Helpful. How about making a comment about the topic instead of a poster.

  • JoAnne August 26, 2013 (8:26 am)

    Good reporting on UGM. I am very impressed by what they have done. It’s just amazing. Their approach of having the homeless person involved in a plan for themselves is great, and so important.
    Many programs, especially government programs, just dish out benefits without ever seeing the faces of the people they are supposed to be helping.
    As for those who want a hand out and do not plan on changing, they do have my sympathy, but ultimately there is nothing UGM or anyone can do to help them.
    Addiction may be a disease, but the addict gets to choose each day whether or not to continue having that disease.
    People who have cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, MS, CP, and many other diseases do not have that choice.

  • MrJT August 26, 2013 (9:25 am)

    JanS- Just to be clear. those are your words to describe NV residents. NOT mine. Get off your high horse and stop speaking for me.

    I’ll go get a picture of the garbage later today and post it. Its on the NW end by the bus stop, just over the ILLEGAL fence they have built.

  • Citizen Sane August 26, 2013 (9:47 am)

    Am I the only one who’s got an uncomfortable feeling about the precedent set here? There seems to be a bit of a ‘gold rush’ going on and folks (call them homeless/vagrants/victims/opportunists) are flooding NV, all looking to get a share of the half-mil in taxpayer money that UGM is going to try to administer (with a cut going to SHARE/WHEEL for their ‘administrative’ services?). We need to accept that the majority of NV residents are not innocent victims of circumstance, but of self-inflicted wounds. As P.J. O’Rourke observed in “Parliament of Whores”, you can’t solve homelessness by simply throwing money at the homeless. It’s analogous to spreading corn around a rat’s warren; all you get is more rats. By admitting scores of new ‘campers’, the folks running NV are violating the spirit, if not the letter, of this assistance scheme. Whether there are 100 or magically 1000 ‘campers’ (boy, is this a perverse retelling of the ‘loaves-and-fishes’ story, or what), the City must not give ONE DIME MORE to this enterprise. It will never be enough, and we have higher priorities to address.
    And before the Goody-goods denounce me as heartless, and ask, ‘what would you do’, I would remind them that I’m already doing plenty. Myself – and Seattle’s other taxpayers, are doing over THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS worth of something, and that’s not counting my taxes that go to Harborview every time some stewbum trips on a curb, etc. When is enough enough?
    We have become wayyyy too much of an ‘entitlement society’, as the previous poster who noted how things were in the past (we had CCC Camps then, do you think if we exchanged support services for the homeless for participation in a modern day CCC, where the homeless clean up parks, or get bussed over to Eastern Washington to help in the fruit harvest, they’d go for it? No, I didn’t think so either). Perhaps it’s time to dial things back a bit, demand more personal accountability, and be generous with aid, but much more demanding over what the recipient must do to get it.
    Case in point: if my brother is down on his luck, and I let him couch-surf at my place, am I out of line to require him to pick up after himself, not drink my top-self booze, and actively look for a job – any job – not just his dream gig? Or am I obligated to let him spend his days on my couch sucking down Laphroaig,and watch Spike TV?
    Is it any different with the ‘homeless’?

  • Citizen Sane August 26, 2013 (10:40 am)

    BTW, I did some maths: The City (that’s you and me) is spending thirty million dollar$ on the homeless. Wikepedia says Seattle’s homeless population ranges between six to eight thousand. Let’s split the diff and assume seven. That means we’re spending about five large ones per every homeless person, regardless of how they got there.
    And you wonder why folks come here from as far away as Fayetville, Arkansas for a piece of our pie?
    Once again, how much is enough, and when can we start attaching meaningful conditions to our aid?
    Look, I’m not heartless. I’m all for helping the helpless, and getting people back on their feet, but I don’t wan’t my money going to those who simply want to be parasites clinging to the bum of society, you know?

  • JoAnne August 26, 2013 (12:24 pm)

    In past reports I have read that the NV community claims that it tries to impose behavior standards for its residents.
    They have said they do not just admit anyone who comes along, and that camp leaders have evicted or tried to evict big-time troublemakers.
    So why did they allow dozens of new residents to move in during the months and weeks before the scheduled shutdown??
    I think this was a manipulative tactic to make the UGM look like is was failing and to increase presence of the camp at any cost.

  • Patriot August 26, 2013 (12:54 pm)

    Shortly after the money was announced a poster was developed reportedly by a lady that was once known as NV’s “liasion” inviting one and all to come to NV to live, so I think you got it right JoAnne. Her and her “boyfriend”, the camp advisor, have been reported as ticked off that Share didn’t get the money.

  • Ms. Sparkles August 26, 2013 (2:33 pm)

    Very good points Citizen Sane and JoAnne. And very thorough reporting by WSB too. WS Girl mentions families and notes that Domestic Violence Shelters don’t admit boys older than 11; that explains part of the homeless families issue, but I aways wonder about why families aren’t on Welfare, or are they one welfare and still can’t find a place they can afford to rent?

    Jan S – I agree with many of the solutions you offer as well; I would like to see a humane version of “poor houses” brought back, to house people in the same place they can find these services. It should be safe and clean…but not too comfortable so people are incouraged to move up and out. People with mental illnesses that prevent them from ever being self sufficient should be in mental hospitals (fully funded ones with plenty of beds) and people with addictions should be give treatment (up to 3 times on the government’s dime) but if they still can’t get it together after that…then they’re on their own and society can cast them out.

  • flimflam August 26, 2013 (4:48 pm)

    thank you Citizen Sane! finally a reasonable post on the subject.

  • JanS August 26, 2013 (4:53 pm)

    CK…I agree…having programs that actually help, instead of just handing out would be nice The city, in my opinion, thinks that it’s doing that, but it’s a process, and sometimes a process of running around in circles, it seems to me.

    Those people who are homeless and beyond helping to get out of it…well, as some have said..bums, run the out of town, let ‘e die in the streets? Not acceptable to me, but to be honest, don’t know how the city should deal. It’s not a new thing…they’ve been around for decades and decades.

    Mr. JT…sorry I seemed to speak for you…your post just seemed very mean spirited. And…according to the editor of this “blog”, they have gone totally around the perimeter of the camp, and found no huge messes (since your post)…looking forward to your picture..

  • KayK August 27, 2013 (7:56 am)

    People may want to check this link out to a Real Change article about city research on the topic of how much of our homeless population arrives from elsewhere:

    The paper version is better than the online if you can buy it, more data shown.

  • Joanne Brayden August 27, 2013 (9:15 am)

    People who have cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, MS, CP, and many other diseases live at Nickelsville.
    A man with leukemia died there last week after applying to UGM for services and being offered only separate shelter beds for himself and his wife(?)/caretaker.
    his story is one of hundreds i could tell you.. including those of more than a couple of people who have posted here.
    the simple truth is that we no longer provide adequate service for those who are critically and/or terminally ill and don’t have resources of their own.
    it’s not a truth we are willing to look at
    it’s so much easier to blame people for getting sick and losing their ability to support themselves
    but is it nevertheless true.

  • MrJT August 27, 2013 (4:14 pm)

    JanS – The garbage was still there last night at 8 pm. As hard as it is to belive, your not always right.

Sorry, comment time is over.