19 Replies to "More Alki slide trouble ahead? Petition asks for city task force"

• Neighbor October 17, 2011 (7:26 am)

  Why not make this petition online? Go to Change.org and create it. Seriously, people want to help but going down to a physical address is so 1990’s. You’d get a much larger response and thus more action from the city.

• JAT October 17, 2011 (7:48 am)

  I’m not saying slides aren’t serious; as a kid I came home from school one rainy day to find the house next door sitting in a muddy broken pile on the beach.

  But I hope I’m not alone in seeing the irony of the slickly corporate CondoManagements, Inc spearheading the drive to force our municipal government to build and pay for an expensive drainage solution for a problem in large part caused by rampant development for private gain.

  To the extent that the hillside stay in place it’s due to vegetation ameliorating the impact of rain and root networks lending their structure to the soil. It’s not roofs and driveways and patios and balconies with a killer view of the Olympics.

  We here in the wild west systematically ask far too little from landowners regarding responsible stewardship and the impact of our development on natural systems, be they salmon streams or clay hillsides. Do we need to address this problem? yes, but let’s not point the finger at local government.

• Karen October 17, 2011 (7:59 am)

  Strip the hillside of achoring vegetation, landslides. I don’t believe we had landslides, here, before this current construction.

• velo_nut October 17, 2011 (8:25 am)

  Skip the task force… Stop building on hillsides.

  There- fixed.

• Aman October 17, 2011 (8:29 am)

  There ya go thinking again ‘Neighbor.’ Good idea!Keep it up, Thanks!

• Ex-Westwood Resident October 17, 2011 (8:50 am)

  Karen you hit the proverbial nail on the head!!!
  As people buy property on top of bluffs or on a critical slope and then clear the vegetation/trees to gain an unobstructed view the hillside WILL become unstable in heavy rains which place the homes on the bottom of the hill in peril, along with the homes on/on top of the hill when a slide occurs (notice I said when and not if).
  Not sure if it’s the city’s responsibility to mitigate this, but (and I can’t believe I’m defending the city here) they are in a tough situation here. If they deny the permits to allow building on a critical slope or on the edge of a hillside, they get sued for preventing the building. If they allow it, when the slide happens they get sued for allowing the building to take place.
  IMO the owner of the property that builds along/atop a hillside should be held liable for any all costs to ensure the hillside remains stable and for the damage a slide inflicts to property owners affected by said slide. Not the city.
  The city has the responsibility to ensure ALL plans are viable and ALL restrictions are enforced.

• WSRes October 17, 2011 (10:01 am)

  This seems like an obvious dupe: sell people on the idea that we are protecting city property with a drainage system and it will also save our hillside view homes from slides.

  Three rules were broken or ignored here and other taxpayers should not have to foot the bill: 1) Don’t build or buy a house on a steep hillside in an earthquake prone area. 2) Don’t remove significant vegetation to improve the view or it will enhance erosion. 3) All steep hills by the ocean WILL erode in time.

• Nulu October 17, 2011 (10:02 am)

  What?
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  No landslides before the current construction? WRONG
  How does that account for the recent slides in Lincoln Park where no new construction has occurred for nearly a century?
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  “To the extent that the hillside stay in place it’s due to vegetation ameliorating the impact of rain and root networks lending their structure to the soil.” WRONG
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  Mis-statements like these take ten laps around WSB (with no thanks to the editors referring readers to the truth)expanding on these myths, before some level headed knowledgeable people respond.
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  How are posts like this so totally naive to our environment yet so certain of simple cause and effect?
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  If WSB could gather and post some of the more accurate information regarding our landslides every time this comes up, it would be a service to the community. Allowing incorrect assertions to spread and flourish on WSB stresses the harmony of our community. It can falsely demonize responsible innocent homeowners.
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  Good information about trees and their lack of ability to hold a hillside, the fact that our hills have been sliding long before they were settled and will continue to, is available at the King County and Seattle DPD websites.
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  The city also does yearly community outreach meetings in West Seattle to provide hillside information and answer questions from their specialists. I thank WSB for listing these in the past.
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  It could be another wet hill sliding season like inumerable ones in the past and I hope we, as a community, all work together against the inevitable.

• Alki Resident October 17, 2011 (10:06 am)

  Out of curiosity,shouldn’t a plan have been in place before this time of year hit,with the rainy season?Seems to me if that had happened there would’ve been less mess and clean up and damage done.

• WSHS Dad October 17, 2011 (10:07 am)

  I live in what is classified as an Environmentally Critical Area- Steep Slope in West Seattle. I built my house 7 years ago and as part of the permitting process had to sign a covenant with the city regarding slides. Basically the gist of it was: we let you build and and let you know you are in a slide potential area, it’s your tough luck if your house winds up downhill from where it’s supposed to be. Condo developers are I am sure subject to the same sort of restrictions, possibly even more rigorous given the size and scope of their projects. Where the city could do better (at least in my neighborhood) is to put in, and actively maintain storm sewers and drainage on our streets- we have none, and the city is not (officially) obligated to put them in. As a landowner, I have tried to manage my runoff, landscape and re-plant my lot with landslide potential in mind, yet every rainy season things get a little uncomfortable.

• Holly October 17, 2011 (11:25 am)

  @JAT Clearly you are mis-informed. CondoManagements is not a condominium developer, they are hired by homeowners, the folks who purchase condominium units to manage their building and protect it. CondoManagements has nothing to gain financially for helping these homeowners and is paying for some of the efforts to help these folks.
  @Karen How do you explain landslides that occur without nearby construction? Landslides have occurred in this area long before many of these condominium buildings were built.

• ummm October 17, 2011 (11:33 am)

  Nulu- If you have ‘more accurate information regarding our landslides’ please post it. Don’t wait for someone else to do it for you, provide ‘a service to the community’ yourself.

• tk October 17, 2011 (11:51 am)

  I’m with JAT. That’s the risk of buying and building on a hill. My father has built a few houses n the bluff around here. None have slid yet. But lemme tell you. These people were very well-to-do.

• JAT October 17, 2011 (12:30 pm)

  Technically I didn’t say CondoManagements was a developer…

• Holly October 17, 2011 (1:41 pm)

  @JAT ok, technically you called them “slickly corporate CondoManagements” Please note that they aren’t the folks spearheading this, the Alki Community Council along with the Alki Landslide Committee are spearheading this effort and CondoManagements is kindly offering their assistance and resources to help these folks. There is no corporate agenda here. For the rest of you, many of these “well to do” homeowners are funding efforts to help with the landslide mitigation, paying for costly engineering studies and the like.

• nulu October 17, 2011 (1:59 pm)

  This petition seems to be about nomenclature.
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  The city, county and state may not have a something called a “Task Force,” but they do have long active departments studying these problems.
  They also have extensive codes concerning steep slope and slides.
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  One thing is clear, no one, not Alki’s “Gold Coast” condo owners living in the critical toe of the slide, single family owners living in long established homes on the bluff & on the hiil itself, Seattle, King County, or Washington State
  has the money or the wherewithal to stop the earth’s movement.
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  From Seattle DPD,
  “4.5 Potential Slide and Steep Slope Areas

  The City of Seattle presently regulates public and private development in environmentally-critical areas by requiring special standards for design and construction in potential slide areas (and known slide areas) and steep slope areas. Potential and known slide areas are defined by historical landslides and by a zone encircling many of the hills and ridges based on the sand/clay contact as shown in Tubbs’ Landslides in Seattle, 1974. Steep slopes are defined as slopes steeper than 40 percent, with a rise exceeding 10 vertical feet. These restricted areas are shown on maps prepared by the DCLU. If a proposed new development is within one of these zones, geotechnical evaluations must be completed to obtain a permit for construction.

  Some of the benefits of accurately delineated potential slide areas in Seattle are for zoning, administration of construction permits, notification for landslide education and public meetings, and emergency notification.

  Some of the pitfalls for such accurate mapping may be complaints from property owners who did not want to be included within a restrictive zone, and the variation in accuracy of the data and geologic conditions on an individual property.

  A common theme of homeowners who object to being included in a potential slide area is that their property values would be diminished. It has been our experience that property values can be reduced temporarily for one or two years when landsliding is active on a property; however, upon remediation of the instability, the property values revert again to the same or higher value as before the landslide occurred. Most of the property that is in a potential slide area is also view property that has risen steadily in value, unless an individual property is impacted by a landslide without suitable remediation. Therefore, it is beneficial for a public agency to accurately map and regulate construction in such sensitive lands to assist the public to prevent unwarranted reduction of property values. Knowledge of the potential landslide risk and education of property owners (including public owners) are the most effective methods to maintain property value in the long-term.

  Of the total number of landslides in the database, 58 percent were within existing mapped potential slide areas and 76 percent were within the existing mapped steep slope areas. Note that 24 percent of the landslides occurred on slopes flatter than 40 percent. This shows the need for improving the potential slide area mapping. The percentage of landslides within either the steep slope or existing potential slide areas was 88. Nine areas in Seattle were identified where clusters of slides were outside of the potential slide areas. Figure A-13 is a map showing the landslides in Seattle in relationship to the potential slide areas. Those areas where significant groups of slides were outside the designated potential slide areas include: Interlaken, North Capitol Hill, Laurelhurst, Shilshole (south end of Northwest Seattle), the hillside west of Burke-Gilman Trail, Seola Beach, Rainier Avenue S.E., Mount Baker Ridge (south of I-90, at south end of Madrona), Admiral Way S.W. (southern end), Alki (high elevations), and 47th Avenue S.W. As shown on a map of landslides in relationship with steep slope areas (Figure A-14), the outliers are primarily scattered, isolated occurrences, but five areas have concentrations of slides outside the steep slope areas: Burke-Gilman Trail, Northwest Queen Anne, Admiral Way, east of Lincoln Park (in Beach Drive S.W. area), and the east side of Beacon Hill (Cheasty Boulevard S.).

  A subset of shallow colluvial and groundwater blowout landslides is debris flows, those landslides defined herein as those that flowed more than 50 feet beyond the toe of the steep slope on which they fail. These slides are significant in that their runout zones do not normally confine themselves to the current potential slide areas, as presently mapped. As shown on Figure A-15, they are scattered around the city in the chronic landslide areas.

  In our opinion, the above discussion points out the need for further definition of the hazard zones based on landslide prone characteristics and on runout zones that could impact downstream properties. Please refer to Part 5 for an evaluation of the existing Potential Slide Areas.
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  Also at Seattle DPD,
  CAM 324, Reducing Landslide and Stormwater Erosion Damage: What You Can Do
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  Nulu- If you have ‘more accurate information regarding our landslides’ please post it. Don’t wait for someone else to do it for you, provide ‘a service to the community’ yourself.
  -Comment by ummm — October 17, 11 11:33 am
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  Sorry ummm. Let me provide that service.
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  Less technical and more instructional are these publications from the state.

  http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/pugetsound/bluffs/slides.html
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  http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/landslides/about/shallow.html
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  http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/landslides/about/about.html
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  http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/sea/landslides/about/deep.html
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  Anyone reading just a couple of these publications should come away more informed and less likely to make unwarranted statements and attacks on others.

• Been There October 17, 2011 (2:39 pm)

  Thank you nulu for once again trying to educate the WS populace about ECA’s, historical slide areas and the earths geological triumph in these matters. It is not as simple as many people seem to think. Meaning tree’s don’t always act in the best interest of hillside stablization.
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  In the early-mid 90’s I recall a massive drainage project that occurred in a portion of the area mentioned in the petition. It was off of Bonair Drive SW and took place along the unimproved Clamar Place SW right-of-way that skirts along the bluff. A LARGE amount of dirtwork/grading, pipe and drainage was installed. I don’t remember how it came about or who paid for it. Something tells me it was not the property owners above and below, but you and me and the rest of us coughed it up via SPU/SDOT…..
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  WSB: Could be a worthy story to look into the above history and also to post an interview with a geotechnical engineer to explain to us readers in layperson speak about all things landslides. Just a suggestion:)

• JAT October 17, 2011 (3:17 pm)

  New York by and by notwithstanding, this probably wasn’t the best place to put a big city… but the harbor was deep and the timber was glorious!

  Now we’re stuck with the place.

• Marie October 17, 2011 (4:48 pm)

  In my career as a landscape designer, I’ve seen, read and heard a lot about what does and does not cause slides. In the process, I learned a great deal and even had to (gulp) change my mind about a few things, when presented with the facts. I wrote and posted this article to my website nearly two years ago after a slide on Beach Drive. It may help people to better understand what happens. http://www.whereiamnow.net/2010/02/trees-and-mudslides.html

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