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October 19, 2015 at 10:25 pm #828350
captainDaveParticipantJTB: Every component of our infrastructure came from a company in the private sector that produced goods in the competitive free marketplace which the government purchased with our tax dollars (assumably on lowest/best quality bid basis–when there is no corruption). Capitalism is a cooperative concept because everyone is incentivized to cooperate. Nowhere in this thread to do I advocate laissez faire markets. I agree with you that market fundamentalism is not sustainable–Antitrust laws, enacted a century ago, addressed that issue to nullify Karl Marx dire predictions of capitalism (until recently anyway).
Advocating for organized labor tells me that you seem to prefer a private sector landscape dominated by big corporations–that is, those having large enough labor forces to organize. The problem with an organized labor solution is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you advocate for tough regulations across the board to support organized labor, the only players left will be the large corporations with the deep pockets who are often the biggest offenders. Stringent labor regulation essentially accomplishes nothing because you eliminate any competitive reason for labor to be valued beyond the specific terms of the law (and labor contracts). This sets up an adversarial condition between labor and management which undermines productivity. This is one of the reasons that small independent businesses can out-compete large businesses. Do you really want to eliminate choices for workers and consumers by supporting organized labor leaders to eradicate small businesses?
Most of our local elected Democrat and Socialist officials are supported by labor organizations who would like nothing more than to eliminate non-union jobs. The more adverse effects that can be created by leftist policies to grow monopolies, the more need for unionized labor. It’s a vicious circle that has been repeated throughout history with poor results. A diversified economy built on a foundation of small businesses is a third option to big corporations vs. big government. No City Council candidate seems to understand the value that small businesses bring to communities beyond a token presence.
October 20, 2015 at 12:09 am #828351
redblackParticipantcaptaindave: howdy and good afternoon.
union labor is not a threat. union roles are still (i’m guessing) less than 25% of the private workforce. i know that nationally the number is 7%, and (i’m guessing) that here in the socialist state of south canuckistan, the roles are higher. we have the third or fourth highest construction/craft labor wages in the country right now, and probably the hottest real estate market in north america.
i’m not too far off base, right?
so the only threat unions pose is in a flat-out wages/benefits competition. don’t want a bigger piece of the pie? don’t join. there’s plenty of non-union work out there. and i’ll gladly pay more taxes for you.
dave, you make some good points sometimes, and i’m glad you give a shit enough about your local farmers that you would venture into the shark-infested socialist waters of lake union. [wait, union?! wth?] good on you, and many thanks. i love the free market enterprise of farmers’ markets.
but sometimes you spout off this “redistribution of wealth” b.s., like taxes are some kind of american bolshevik plot. it sticks in my craw.
…because the facts are that the working poor and “middle class” in seattle – about half of the work force – pays as much as 17% of their income in taxes.
the great, powerful upper middle bracket – where my wife and i are – pay about 5-8% of our income on state and local taxes.
the upper brackets pay as much as 3% of their income in local taxes, on average.
http://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2013/1/31/tax-report
now, please tell me in what way, shape, or form is that a robbery of the rich by the collectivist socialist dirtbags? i understand the scale of incomes here, too. but [blasphemy deleted] we’re taxing the shit out of the wrong people.
if anything, i’m the one who should have a beef with lefty politicians.
not you.
October 20, 2015 at 6:40 am #828352
HMC RichParticipantAll I can say about unions is what I am seeing firsthand. One member used the race card and scared the hell out of the union bosses. Now we all get the same amount of work. No accounting for merit. No accounting for seniority. Equality for all and everyone is not happy. Funny thing is that he just talks and talks and when work is needed he disappears but gets paid like everyone else. Fortunately 9/10ths of my other jobs are non Union.
October 20, 2015 at 12:28 pm #828353
redblackParticipantyeah, well, rich, in my trade, if you don’t pull your weight, you’re out the door. guys who talk and talk and talk are usually told to shut up by their coworkers.
no sick days. no paid vacations. no work = no money.
October 20, 2015 at 5:35 pm #828354
captainDaveParticipantredblack: I realize that unions are currently not a dominant factor in the local economy. However, their influence in local politics is disproportionate to their relative presence–and seemingly growing. The biggest threat that union leaders pose is getting leftist politicians elected who, in turn, create increased regulatory barriers for small independent non-union businesses.
The Seattle real-estate and construction market is hot right now because of one gargantuan company. On the other hand, if not for Amazon, Seattle leftist politicians would not have had the opportunity to drastically clamp down on entrepreneurialism because people would not have stood for the destruction of our previously diversified economy. Without Amazon, there would be a severe shortage of jobs under Seattle’s current iron-fisted anti-business policies.
Lake Union, by the way, was envisioned to be the union point between Lake Washington and Puget Sound. It was a name probably chosen for promoting the locks and canal project at the turn of the last century. Labor unions were illegal then. :)
There is no argument about our regressive local taxes. I mentioned earlier in this thread that small business owners are disproportionally charged more for fees, permits, and penalties than the politically favored large corporations. This is all part of the same regressive thinking our liberal politicians have subscribed to in their efforts to promote socialism. The rhetoric is “tax the rich” while the actions have been to milk and oppress everyone else.
Who are the rich anyway? Too often, the targeted “rich” are simply working people who are successful at building businesses in our community. The ultra-elite that socialists hate are untouchable by current taxing schemes because they already have the wealth. So instead, our brilliant bureaucrats want to punish those who are actively providing diverse job opportunities in our communities. Without the working “rich”, you would not have a vibrant economy.
I was one of them until City bureaucrats forcibly put me in the lower class by destroying my savings through frivolous litigation and ability to make an independent income through arbitrary personal sanctions. Then go get a job? I am too old to be of interest to Amazon or Microsoft, so now I am told that I should sign up for some entitlement program to pay my mortgage and escalating property taxes. That’s never going to happen. Multiply this by thousands of other would-be entrepreneurs and you have a sick socialist mess brewing.
Our bureaucrats strive for equality while doing things to widen the gap between the “rich” and “poor”. Why not open up opportunity for all people to become “rich” though their own creative and productive efforts? The push for social equality of the masses destroys equal opportunity to benefit only an elite ruling class. This is exactly what the founders of the US wanted to avoid.
The key to fixing this mess is to first understand that the size of the “economic pie” is not finite (as socialists want you to believe). If you increase the size of the pie by giving freedom and opportunity to the masses, then you proportionately reduce the financial power of the elite class. This is easy to do. All the government needs to do reduce regulatory barriers to small business and follow the anti-trust laws developed a century ago to keep monopolies and cartels at bay. This was done successfully way back when the nominal tax rate was only 4%.
My beef with the City Council lefty’s is that they are killing equal opportunity under the unachievable fallacy of equality.
October 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm #828355
JTBParticipantCaptainDave, close, but no cigar. The size of the pie has been growing, slowly but growing. What has happened is the re-distribution of new wealth to the top, resulting in economic stagnation of middle class wage earners and inefficient use of the excess capital. I agree that a re-distribution of wealth toward the lower four quintiles of the population would no doubt provide the resources necessary to create and support more small businesses. But it is distributive policy more so than regulatory policy that is the heart of the matter about why small business is challenged to thrive.
October 20, 2015 at 8:23 pm #828356
captainDaveParticipantJTB: I will give you that the size of the economy looks to be slightly growing in terms of dollar measurement. However, it is really in contraction when you consider the massive influx of baseless money by the Fed. The upward redistribution of wealth by our government to corporate and banking elite is atrociously corrupt. By law (via antitrust legislation), there should have never been a situation where any private sector entity was too big to fail.
How can the government constitutionally re-distribute wealth without killing the incentive to produce? Private property rights are essential in providing incentive for people to produce beyond their basic needs. When people advocate taking money from the rich to give to the poor, it sets up a destructive dynamic. Who the hell want’s to strive to be rich when you know that it will just be taken away at some point? Better off to sit back and let government hand you what it takes from others who are stupid enough to try.
We have had plenty of downward redistribution policy applied in the US in recent years. More people are on distributive entitlements today than ever–and poverty is still on the rise. Government redistribution of wealth (up or down) has historically done nothing good for the majority of citizens.
The middle class is “economically stagnated” (I prefer the words “largely destroyed”) because people do not have many options outside of working for government or some large corporation. Traditionally, small business accounted for a substantial segment of private sector employment along with the majority of job growth and individual prosperity. Seattle seems to be leading the charge to eradicate small businesses in comparison to many other large cities across the US. Social misfits like me, who are not qualified nor interested in working for big gov or big corp, are suppose to just sit around wondering what happened to the middle class while our leftist leaders continue to dump sand in the wheels of entrepreneurial ingenuity.
October 20, 2015 at 9:30 pm #828357
JTBParticipantcaptainDave, things worked pretty well for everyone in the three decades following WWII. Distribution of new wealth was accomplished by tax policy. Seems there was plenty of motivation to produce–for the owners, for management, for investors, for employees.
The exhaustively researched analysis of capitalism by Thomas Piketty highlighted how distributive policies that favor the elite have historically tended to result in less efficient use of surplus capital compared to the more equitable distribution I referred to above. So again, if you want the pie to grow bigger and faster, it’s better to put the money to more productive use than on high stakes financial games.
I’m beginning to find this exchange to be sort of pointless in that I appreciate your ire at local bureaucrats but not your attempt to assign some sort of socialist ideology as motivation. I see them as trying to make city government work without reliable revenue and limited options for how to make up for it. There are obvious issues of (in)competence, complacency and inertia that characterize city government and services. That makes me believe trying to elect competent, well-intended candidates or at least shaking up the council is better than doing nothing which is exactly what voting NOTA is.
October 21, 2015 at 1:02 am #828358
captainDaveParticipantJTB: What similarities does current Seattle policy have with anything in the three decades post WWII back when the average joe/jill was free to start a business? I see very few if any.
I mean no offense to Thomas Piketty, but he is a young French academic who apparently grew up under trotskyite parents and hardline socialism according to Wiki. As an outsider to the business world, it is a wonder he sees the value of capitalism at all. Kudos to him for discovering the wonders of capitalism from his lofty perch on the ivory tower of academia. But I would be skeptical to call him an expert on what historically made capitalism work in America. France and the rest of Europe is a complete mess right now as they are drowning in debt from socialist policies and centralized government. Piketty’s utopian idea for a global tax on wealth is a double edged sword. Would you really want to trade your sovereignty and dilute your constitutional rights to get your piece of some jerk in Russia? I think Piketty needs to read the Federalist Papers.
Over regulation is a far bigger issue than taxation. I can begrudgingly tolerate paying more taxes on revenue than some rich guy, but I can’t tolerate regulations and policies that keep me from making any revenue at all. If you believe that Seattle bureaucrats are simply incompetent and just like the sound of the world “socialism”, then maybe they should just get out of the way and let people go to work.
Seattle collects more money today than it ever has. The issue isn’t revenue, it’s spending–Too many needless programs and too many useless departments built on piles of stifling regulation. Is there any City Council candidate talking about balancing budgets, reducing spending or relaxing business regulations? No. It’s all about how much “free” stuff they can promise to get your vote.
Maybe I won’t vote NOTA. Maybe I will just write in my own name.
October 21, 2015 at 8:16 am #828359
JanSParticipantCaptain Dave…what are the “needless programs” you speak of?…any specific ones you have in mind? And…what “free” stuff? I don’t get free stuff, do you? I don’t know anyone who does. So…got a list there, too?
October 22, 2015 at 1:09 pm #828360
redblackParticipanti’m with jan. i don’t get free stuff. i don’t want free stuff. i don’t vote to give other people free stuff instead of jobs.
also, the mayor’s 2016 budget is $5.1 billion, and it has a $7.3 million surplus, bringing the city’s cash reserve to $106 million.
but kshama sawant is proposing a “people’s budget” october 27 if you’re still concerned.
October 22, 2015 at 4:42 pm #828361
JTBParticipantcaptainDave. I quit. Either you are unable to extract genuinely relevant information from your sources or else you allow your bias to guide you uncritically.
Here’s what you gleaned from Wiki about Piketty:”he is a young French academic who apparently grew up under trotskyite parents and hardline socialism according to Wiki. As an outsider to the business world, it is a wonder he sees the value of capitalism at all.”
Here’s what Wikipedia actually said: “His parents had been involved with a Trotskyite group and the May 1968 protests in Paris, but they had moved away from this political position before Piketty was born, and a visit to the Soviet Union in 1991 was enough to make him a firm “believe[r] in capitalism, private property, the market”
Red baiting? Trotskyite red baiting? Country Joe Mcdonald would not be impressed.
Perhaps you’d be more sympathetic toward Joseph Stiglitz’s call to establish uniform or comparable tax policies between nations to inhibit capital flight and promote local investment. Perhaps not.
In any case, gimme an “f.”
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