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March 5, 2008 at 3:47 pm #586500
beachdrivegirlParticipantDemocrats throughout the country, and right here in Washington state, need to wake up. Despite the state of Washington voting more than 2 to 1 in favor of Barack Obama, our state’s “superdelegates” gave Sen. Hillary Clinton a 2-to-1 victory in “superdelegates” from this state.
Sens. Maria Cantwell and Patty Murray, Reps. Jay Inslee, Tom Foley and Norm Dicks, and King County Executive Ron Sims all believe that they as party insiders are more important than the voters, and democracy in general. This arrogant, disenfranchising behavior is happening all over the country.
In fact, Hillary Clinton’s “superdelegate” lead nets her more delegates by 2 to 1 than her win in California.
Party insiders will steal this election, disenfranchise a generation of voters, and lose another winnable election for the Democrats if the people of this party don’t stand up for change, and do it today.
If superdelegates’ pledges stay consistent through the convention in Denver, I cannot ever support them for any further public office, and I will do whatever I can with my time and finances to support any and all candidates who oppose them.
The superdelegates, in the end, are responsible to the people and should abide by the decision that is made by the voters, whatever that decision may be.
March 5, 2008 at 5:05 pm #616648
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
yes, obama won our state’s delegates when it came to the caucus.. but did you notice that he didn’t when it came to the popular vote?
You get to choose.. if you play by the rules Obama keeps Kennedy and Kerry… and Florida doesn’t count.
if you think the rules shouldn’t count… you lose that along with what you think you will gain.
The will of the people isn’t so clear. If it was, he would already have all the regular delegate he needs to win. He doesn’t.
You don’t get to change the game when it doesn’t seem to be going your way.
March 5, 2008 at 5:18 pm #616649
charlabobParticipantRon Sims is a superdelegate on behalf of the National Association of County Executives so he lives in Washington but he represents a nationwide slice of people. I don’t remember the details, but he asked all of the Senators running for president to come and talk about some funding issues of particular interest to counties and Hillary was the only person who replied at all and she said many of “the right things.”
The point is superdelegates don’t necessarily represent the state in which they live and if they voted as their state did, they might well be disenfranchising their real consituency. There are young dems, overseas dems, unions — they all live somewhere and that doesn’t matter.
(I heard all of this from Sims on his monthly NPR interview.)
JoB, of course you don’t get to change the game — but you sure as hell get to try — that’s what makes it a game. :-)
I don’t for one minute believe the Democrat are not going to seat any delegates from Michigan or Florida so both sides have to battle to get the advantage from the situation. There’s enough ambiguity in the situation, and in the super delegates, to justify any and all positions, so it should be interesting. Who knows — maybe, ultimately, Governor Dean will get to decide.
Since I’m not a hardcore Hill or Barack fan, I come down on the side of bring on the battle — it will be nothing compared with what happens for the general election and at least we might not have another John Kerry “above the fray” loss.
March 5, 2008 at 5:37 pm #616650
FranciParticipantI don’t know if you can truly compare the caucus results to the popular vote. I for one didn’t caste a vote for President in the election because I knew it was essentially meaningless. For those that voted in the caucus and the election there is nothing to say that they voted the same way both times.
I think that the democrats need to split the delegates between the caucus and the election, much like the republicans do.
It still bothers me that anyone who wasn’t able to be there on caucus day doesn’t get to opportunity to vote for their candidate.
I’ve heard things like “Well if it was important to them they would have been there”. That is short sighted and ignorant. There are people who have a valid opinion who simply had to be at work. I also heard “They could get away on their lunch hour to participate”. There are many of us who may commute by bus to other parts of the city to earn a living.
If we are going to debate who should or should not get the super-delegate vote; and compare popular vs caucus; both popular and caucus votes need to count in delegate race.
March 5, 2008 at 5:37 pm #616651
beachdrivegirlParticipantThe super-delegate trend is not just an issue in Washington state. It is an issue nation wide. Obama leads right now by a margin of 135 delegates. However, as of today, Hillary leads pledegd super delegates by 44 votes. I am not trying to change the game to favor any canidate; however, I think that they do need to consider and reflect on the popular vote. And Charlabob, of course Sims is going to defend the way he votes and why he thinks it is okay to do so…
March 5, 2008 at 5:40 pm #616652
beachdrivegirlParticipantFranci-as I stated above this is a widespread issue. And Washington state is in the minority with holding both a Caucus and Primay.
March 5, 2008 at 5:48 pm #616653
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl.. the delegate count does not necessarily reflect the popular vote.
In this state, delegates are split according to the caucus turnout (which by the way was nearly impossible for handicapped folks where i caucused… so that’s one group that wasn’t heard from)… but many states are all or nothing.. so the portion of their population who voted for the other delegate are totally unrepresented.
There is no clear consensus here… no matter how numbers are used to present one. if there was.. we would have a delegate.
Talking about Obama’s “popular mandate” at this point is comparable to Bush’s claiming a mandate from the people when at best he squeaked by and at worst he stole the elections.
I am not implying that Obama is stealing an election.. but just pointing out that Bush really lowered public perception of the standards for a mandate…
If Obama truly was the people’s choice, he would have his nomination secured by now. McCain does.. and i don’t think there is much question that he has a mandate.
March 5, 2008 at 5:56 pm #616654
JoBParticipantBeachdrivegirl…
“And Charlabob, of course Sims is going to defend the way he votes and why he thinks it is okay to do so…”
It IS ok for him to vote his conscience. This is exactly what a superdelegate is supposed to do.
And his argument is rational… perhaps it even has merit.
Superdelegates only come into play when there is not a clear victory in the popular delegate count for either candidate (enough delegates to secure the nomination)…
it is the party’s method of insuring that the candidate with the greatest chance of survival and the ability to govern is nominated … when there is no clear mandate from the popular vote.
They are supposed to vote their conscience.. not simply add to the delegate count of their state…
ken posted a great explanation of how this all came to be somewhere.. i bet jans can find it… she finds everything…
there is a really good historical lesson buried there.
March 5, 2008 at 9:35 pm #616655
HuindekmiParticipantJoB,
I’m not sure where you are getting your information. Precisely ZERO of the states allocated their delegates as “all or nothing” for the Democratic party. The Republicans… sure. But not the Democrats.
You can see the breakdown of delegates here if you are curious: Link
You may also note that Obama is leading the popular vote nationwide. Although it is very close.
My biggest fear is that the two democratic candidates continue to beat up on one another, wasting their warchests to get the nomination, and leave themselves underfunded and vulnerable.
I believe Clinton’s latest strategy of going negative (boy, she really learned something from campaigning against the Republicans, didn’t she?) only hurts the Democratic party as a whole.
March 5, 2008 at 9:40 pm #616656
beachdrivegirlParticipantIt’s interesting to see, despite what SNL might say, just how much they media has allowed her and her campaign to shape the context of the argument. The story the entire time he was winning 11 states in a row, was that she had such a huge lead in Texas and Ohio that she would be able to even out any potential gains from the primaries leading up to it. Well, he won 11 states in a row and the closest margin of the 11 was 58-42, and he netted over 130 pledged delagates in doing that, and took a decent sized lead. Her “firewall†as her campaign called it was last night, and as her campaign was quoted saying in Febraury- they expected to be even in pledge delegates after Texas and Ohio. Well, last night was her big “triumph†and she netted 4 delegates, and still trails by over 130 pledged delegates. To make that up, she had have to do what she did last night 33 more times, just to tie. That was 4 states- there are only 12 left, to win in pledged delegates she would have to win 70-30 in all 12 remaining states. That’s how big his lead is. She clearly failed miserably at her campaigns own stated objectives, and is now hopelessly behind in pledged delegates without enough states to make it up. But her “moral†victory last night is the only story covered and I heard a number of “experts†say the race is “essentially tied†now! The media has it out for Clinton? Not sure I buy it…
March 5, 2008 at 9:42 pm #616657
beachdrivegirlParticipantThis does not have to do with the superdelegates…but found to funny (really not trying to bash Clinton…but is humerous) and had to post it somewhere…
a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many ‘friends’ of the Clintons .
1-James McDougal – Clinton’s convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr’s investigation.
2 -Mary Mahoney – A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House .
3 – Vince Foster – Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.
4 – Ron Brown – Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller commited suicide.
5 – C. Victor Raiser II- Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.
6 -Paul Tulley – Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock , September 1992. Described by Clinton as a ‘Dear friend and trusted advisor’.
7 -Ed Willey – Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House . Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8 -Jerry Parks -Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock . Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.
9 -James Bunch – Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a ‘Black Book’ of people which contained names of influential people who
11 -Kathy Ferguson- Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12 -Bill Shelton – Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.
13 -Gandy Baugh – Attorney for Clinton’s friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.
14 -Florence Martin – Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal Mena , Arkansas Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.
15 – Suzanne Coleman – Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.
16 -Paula Grober – Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.
17 -Danny Casolaro – Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18 – Paul Wilcher – Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 ‘October Surprise’ was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.
19 -Jon Parnell Walker – Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington , Virginia apartment balcony August15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20 -Barbara Wise – Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21 -Charles Meissner -Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22 -Dr. Stanley Heard – Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.
23 -Barry Seal -Drug running TWA pilot out of Mena Arkansas , death was no accident.
24 -Johnny Lawhorn Jr. – Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25 -Stanley Huggins – Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26 – Hershell Friday – Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.
27 -Kevin Ives & Don Henry – Known as ‘The boys on the track’ case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:
28 -Keith Coney – Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29 -Keith McMaskle – Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988
30 -Gregory Collins – Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.
31 -Jeff Rhodes – He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.
33 -James Milan – Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to ‘natural causes’.
34 -Jordan Kettleson – Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
35 -Richard Winters – A suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
36 -Major William S. Barkley Jr.
37 -Captain Scott J . Reynolds
38 -Sgt. Brian Hanley
39 -Sgt. Tim Sabel
40 -Major General William Robertson
41 -Col. William Densberger
42 -Col. Robert Kelly
43 -Spec. Gary Rhodes
44 -Steve Willis
45 -Robert Williams
46 -Conway LeBleu
47 -Todd McKeehan
Quite an impressive list! Pass this on. Let the public become aware of what happens to
March 5, 2008 at 9:47 pm #616658
westwoodMemberbeachdrivegirl–if you are complaining about superdelegates, I assume you are an Obama-supporting Democrat.
So why are you reprinting a bunch of Republican crackpot conspiracy theories about the Clinton’s killing their opposition.
Oppose Clinton if you wish, but don’t use right-wing BS to do it.
March 5, 2008 at 9:50 pm #616659
AnonymousInactiveIt sure is scary, though, to see that. Nearing November, if it’s McCain/Clinton, do you mind, beachdrivegirl, if I re-post that? Lol! From your friendly Republican.
March 5, 2008 at 9:53 pm #616660
beachdrivegirlParticipantOh no, the funny thing is I did get it from my dad who is a Republican supporting Obama. I am a Democrat. I was not trying to use right-wing BS but I found it to funny and had to share it… I dont mind if you repost it and i am sorry if i offended poeple out there… .
March 5, 2008 at 10:11 pm #616661
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl.. you were offended by the clinton 3 AM ad and felt it damaged the democratic party… yet you pass along that drivel as though it meant something. who is ruthless now?
do you really believe any of that crap?
if this is the high road.. give me politics as usual any day.
March 5, 2008 at 10:45 pm #616662
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
i am sorry i was so testy… but that list upset me so much i had to go wash dishes to calm down.
you are too young to know what that list means.. but for those of us who are old enough this is the vilest sort of political chicanery.
if nothing else, it should serve to warn you about what will actually be coming should Obama get his chance to face off against McCain.
This list is a litany of human suffering, but the most of the suicides on that list are particularly tragic.
What this list does not point out is that most of those suicides on that list were the direct result of political witch hunts against the Clintons.
These are people who did nothing more than have the misfortune to somehow be associated with the Clintons and who were pressured unmercifully to reveal even the tiniest scraps of scandal against them. They were literally blackmailed (i know, sometimes they called it plea bargaining) into testimony that was edited by the prosecutors to be damaging.
Many of these people took their own lives because it was the only way they could avoid being party to what will eventually be revealed to be one of America’s uglier political scandals…
and i am not talking about the Clintons but about those who hounded them and hundreds of innocent people.
James McDougal died of heart failure which certainly wasn’t helped by the stress he was put under.
I could go down the list name by name but that would only fill me with too much sorrow for even my puppies to give me joy.
These are for the most part innocent people who got caught in the crossfire of the ugliest politics i have ever witnessed… and to be a party to this list in any way is shameful to any American… democrat or republican.
I’ll give you a pass for being too young to really know… but there is nothing even remotely funny about this list.. and passing it along in any forum is tasteless.
March 6, 2008 at 12:13 am #616663
charlabobParticipantJoB — I have more dishes and a litter box if you need more relief.
I’m kind of horrified at the posting of that list at this point and the notion that it’s funny — first time I believed in the political generation gap.
I have two things to say:
since many of those people were victims of the relentless republican vendetta against everyone associated with Clinton, I, personally, would prefer to hold Ken Starr and his henchpeople responsible for their deaths. These people were killed by Ken Starr and the Republican Slime Machine.
Why did they leave off the allegation that the Clintons are intimately involved with the Columbian Drug cartel. First time I’ve seen that missing on this very same document.
NR, I’m sure no one on the Republican side will mind your reposting it — I’m a bit surprised that you want to, without at least some research.
Meantime, I’ll be looking into the history of the Bush family, starting with Prescott. I hope we all find it equally amusing.
the charla half who may rapidly be losing her sense of humor
March 6, 2008 at 12:22 am #616664
andreaParticipantThat list is one was of the most in poor taste things I’ve read on here…Everyone dies. At some point it happens to us all. Thats life. Whether its from natural causes, a plane crash or some ill-begotten means, thats what happens in life. When you’ve been around as long as the Clintons have, a lot of the people they know will have died. I know a lot of people who have died, for goodness sake.
March 6, 2008 at 12:29 am #616665
AnonymousInactiveSorry. I was just trying to be funny (or make the mood lighter). I am trying to stay out of the Clinton/Obama debates, but enjoy reading them.
March 6, 2008 at 1:41 am #616666
JoBParticipantcharlabob….
i went shopping.. bought veggies and sausage to put in a mexican inspired hominy soup for supper. think i will make cornbread too. I am still simmering:(
there are some times i hate to be reminded of.. and we have had them both the last two days… vietnam and the horror that was and now ken starr and slimegate… both make me physically ill to think about.
Neither will be on most under 30’s radar… and not on the radar of some of them over 30… it is impossible to read about them and understand them viscerally.
just as it is impossible for today’s young women to understand what an insult Obama’s dismissive behavior is of Hillary right now… having never really experienced being marginalized that way…
I am trying to be gracious… i know you really do have to live this long to acquire the memories we have… but part of me would like to just shake people silly.
Making cornbread will generate more dishes…
March 6, 2008 at 4:04 am #616667
charlabobParticipantNR and BDG,
Thank you for clarifying — I believe that you didn’t mean to offend. I left, intending never to come back to the blog. I have come to value civil political discourse here. Probably too much.
My reaction to the posting, accompanied by “Isn’t this funny,” is great sadness. Andrea’s reaction reassures me that you don’t have to be a geezer to understand. When I was young, I had teachers who had been victims of the McCarthy (not Eugene) witchhunts. I hadn’t experienced any of it and I never forgot their pain. So I expect more of and give more credit to the gen <x,y,z,aa> folks. In fact, so many of them do get it.
JoB, I hope the hominy soup and cornbread were as good as they sound. You clearly are a woman of many talents. I, OTOH, went shopping for paper shredders — we needed one and it seemed like a good metaphor.
Thanks, guys for making me think…even when I don’t like it.
March 6, 2008 at 5:28 am #616668
JoBParticipantJoB hands charlabob the mantle of graciousness…
charlabob falls in a dead faint in amazement…
nobody looks up her skirt because she is wearing pants…
JoB goes off to soak her head…
JoB will find the mantle in the morning where charlabob dropped it on her way out to celebrate her amazing transformation.
nite nite
March 6, 2008 at 3:44 pm #616669
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB and Charlabob, thanks for the forgiveness. If I could take back the posting, trust me, I would. I appreciate the second chance adn am glad you are back Charlabob.
March 6, 2008 at 3:45 pm #616670
KayleighMemberI was born after Vietnam, but I remember how bizarrely hateful some were to the Clintons, and I remember the silly conspiracy theories (which apparently are still circulating.)
Beachdrivegirl, just curious as to why you would find a list of people who passed away “funny.” Do you mean funny as in strange/creepy?
March 6, 2008 at 3:48 pm #616671
beachdrivegirlParticipantI foudn it fnny that someone(s) took so much time to put a list together and tried to asssociate with the Clintons as mass murderes…it seems on the extreme side. No, I dont find it funny that the people passed away from non-natural causes. death isnt funny.
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