Seattle Bicyclist

[kgraham3131]

As I drove home from work yesterday I found myself in quite a bit of traffic, while driving through Pioneer Square I witnessed several bicyclists running red lights and otherwise traveling VERY unsafely.

It is frustrating to me as a driver who in no way wants to hit anyone however when you come up in my blind spot after running a red light and I don’t see you because I have the right of way I don’t see how it would be my fault that you got hurt. After this cyclist turned LEFT on a RED LIGHT I watched as he rode his bike through a coned off construction area and then again ran another red light.
HOW CAN CYCLISTS WANT TO BE ‘TREATED’ LIKE CARS ON THE ROADS IN OUR LANES OF TRAFFIC YET YOU DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAWS OF THE ROADS (STOP SIGNS, LIGHT LAWS)
I even had a cyclist hit my side mirror one day due to him insisting on cutting in front of the line of traffic at a light down by the stadium.
Is there a way to report unsafe bicyclists?
-concerned driver

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[BeckyjOE]

You could report them but how is it to go any further…unlike a vehicle a bike has no license plate…

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[AJP]

Do you make similar rants when you see people driving cars who do this kind of stuff? Cause I see people driving cars do this every single day. And they’re in control of thousands of pounds going much faster than a cyclist can go. And you don’t have to worry about hurting a cyclist and getting cited. Drivers are very rarely cited for hitting a cyclist, even if the cyclist is killed.

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[mark47n]

I’m with AJP on this one.

Look, all cyclists want is to not be hit by cars. Often, in my experience, when I have a close call with or have been hit by a driver I’m riding exactly where I’m supposed to be, as far as the law is concerned, and doing all of the things that I’m supposed to.

Yes, I’ve run lights. I’ve run stop signs. I’ve ridden on the sidewalk if it’s more convenient or right in the lane, like under the viaduct. Many drivers simply don’t like cyclists and it’s that simple, either because we zip right by to the front of the queue, exercise the rights that we do have, such as taking up space on the road, or because we violate traffic laws.

As for attitudes; cyclists tend to be assertive about where they can go, even aggressive, because their a bit wound up. Road riding requires your full attention and, because of angry drivers, is rather dangerous. I won’t excuse rude cyclists but there are simply more rude drivers. Rude, angry, aggressive, ragey drivers.

The other point that AJP makes is right on the money. Drivers of cars don’t get cited when they hit bikes. Even when it’s egregious. Cops hate cyclists too, so you’re in good company. If they didn’t they’d cite more drivers. I did see one ragey driver get pulled over. It was right after a BMW cut me off with a left turn on 4th. A cop saw it and pulled him over. I’ve never seen a cop pull over a driver for cutting off a cyclist.

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[EdSane]

Only advice I can give is to invest in a dash cam. Best thing I’ve installed in my car. Bicyclist are liable if they cause damage to your vehicle because they failed to follow the law and having video evidence helps.

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[TSurly]

I agree Ed. Having a helmet camera on while I ride my bike is the best way to capture license plates and faces when drivers do dangerous things. It’s amazing how fast a driver’s behavior changes when they realize they’re being recorded.

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[mark47n]

That’s awesome TSurly!

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[EdSane]

@TSurly, I agree a dashcam also capture bad drivers too! and certainly helps with an insurance claim when it is a he said he said situation. That said, wouldn’t you agree that cyclists need the same accountability. They should also carry ‘license plates’ so we can identify the ones who flagrantly break laws and potentially lead to accidents. mark47n admitted on this very forum that they disregards traffic control laws and I wonder if the calculus of that choice is directly related to the anonymity of cyclists. Drivers do not have that luxury.

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[TSurly]

@EdSane there are a**holes everywhere, in cars and on bikes. Current state law does not require bicycles to be licensed, and until it does, please stop using that tired argument. The bottom line is when a cyclist makes a dangerous or illegal maneuver on the road, they are often held accountable by having the fear of god struck in them, road rash, broken bones or worse. The choice to do something stupid on a bike has nothing to do with anonymity. It is the same bad decision that someone chooses to do behind the wheel of a car.

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[EdSane]

So you don’t believe they should be licensed when they utilize public roads? btw, I don’t care if there is any cost to this registration. To me this is directly related to accountability. We don’t have that currently and if bicyclists are going to be a serious form of transportation they should be treated as such.

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[TSurly]

No I don’t because it’s impracticable, and I say that as someone who also drives a car. Would you also propose going after every 5 to 15 year old who rides their Huffy on a public street?

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[JoB]

edsane
it appears you do fall back on the rule of law when unlawful behavior affects you … ;-)

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by JoB.

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[AJP]

You really want to add another level of government bureaucracy over this? Another government office, more government employees, more paper, more resources, more enforcement for…bicyclists running stop signs and lights? Really?

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[TSurly]

I was thinking the same thing but didn’t bring it up. I better be careful not to upset him, he may start sending motars and bottle rockets over my house.

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[JanS]

hahahaha…but, but…Benghazi…the OP asked a legit question, and at least 2 people made excuses, blaming car drivers. Yes, we know you think there are too many cars, and I agree. Hell, there are too many people, with too many cars. But the OP makes a point. You need to lecture your fellow bicyclists on their bad behavior. We’re all in this together, want the same goal, and that’s getting home safe at night.

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[EdSane]

To be clear I don’t think bicyclists should be in the streets at all if there are sidewalks available. I realize that opinion is in the minority and that we are required to ‘share’ the road. That said I’m tired of the cyclists who break traffic laws and hog the road. Those actions are dangerous and can/do lead to injury. And I think there would be less of those actions if they had a large identifying tag on the back of the bicycle.

@TSurly, why the personal attack?

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[JoB]

EdSane
cyclists on sidewalks are a hazard to pedestrians
you know. people who walk.

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[JanS]

Mark47..rude, angry, aggressive cyclists – that’s OK with you? Take care of your own,call them out when they are wrong, and stop saying it’s only car drivers that are the aggressive one. Please, you know better than that. I have a lot of respect for most cyclists, but that doesn’t excuse the assholes in the crowd. . I’ll watch your back when I drive, you watch mine..fair?.

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[AJP]

Ok, so yes, Edsane is fine with millions of dollars of government money being spent on small, hard-to-read tags on a bike so he can report them when they take the lane (legally) or do other things that are either illegal or inconveniencing to him. This despite the fact that cyclists causing accidents and injuries is extremely rare. Cyclists being annoying and/or a$$es occurs about as much as drivers doing similar things, though the consequences of a driver in a 2,000 lb vehicle are far worse. And back up to the original poster’s fear of being found at fault in a cyclist/car collision: drivers are very rarely cited for hitting cyclists, even when they are killed. But we should still spend resources on going after the cyclists.

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[mark47n]

JanS: I didn’t excuse rude, angry cyclists as you seem to think. I said that they are out there as are rude angry drivers. The chief difference is that rude, angry cyclists don’t kill cars. I also didn’t say anything at all like what you’re ascribing to me. I said that a lot of road cyclists are assertive and their aggressive style MAY come from a desire to not be turned into a pancake. As I’ve pointed out in other cycling threads; I have a right to be on the roadway. It’s not a privilege, it’s a right.

Your desire for me to lecture fellow cyclists is ridiculous. I can just visualize some other cyclist shaking their finger at me for what they believe to be bad behavior. I’d likely just ride away.

EdSane: As I stated above; I have a right to be on the roadway. Before you get all up in arms regarding liability consider that motorcycles and collectors vehicles are exempted from insurance requirements in this state. As to my violating traffic laws, yes, I have. Tell me you haven’t…ever.

Sorry to say, angry drivers who have to watch cyclists move faster than them in this city, comparing cars and bikes is ridiculous in the extreme. I might dent you body work while a car would maim or kill me. Bear in mind that Washington state law says that you must provide 3′ of space around me.(<http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/drivertraining/docs/bicycletestanswers.pdf). Perhaps I’ll be more concerned about cyclist behavior that only really endangers themselves when drivers start to understand the laws that govern bicycles and there interaction and use of the roads.

Unfortunately for the cycling community, drivers get away with injuring or killing cyclists at an alarming rate. There have been many articles stating statistics about this in periodicals that are not bicycle centered.

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[EdSane]

@mark47n, I grant that you have a right to the road. I read through the document you linked and though it was geared towards educating drivers I believe many bicyclist would gain something out of reading it too. Because we’re suppose to share the road and properly yield the right of way. By being assertive bicyclists are failing that and by blowing through red lights and stops signs they fail it. Sure, I’ve broken traffic laws (5mph over is about the only one intentionally). If we observed a driver constantly blowing through the crosswalk next to Boren K-8 (not yielding to peds), blowing through red lights down Delridge or failing to yield at stop signs around the junction. I’m sure they would get a mention on this blog. Yet, I see all of this regularly with multiple bicyclists. This tells me it is a cultural issue with their mentality. So maybe they need a wag of the finger from members of their community. Your angle to denigrate drivers just seems to be away to obfuscate the topic of the thread which is about bicyclists.

As for liability. To be clear they are not required to carry insurance they are still liable for any actions they take. This is why both drivers and bicyclists should carry cameras. If you blow through a red light and hit my door panel you pay.

Finally, the comment about drivers not being charged or ‘getting away’ seems pretty disingenuous. If the police did not personally observe the incident, there are no witnesses to corroborate the story by either party and the physical evidence is unclear who had the right of way the police will more then likely assist with the exchange of information and document that an incident occurred. They are not going to cite either driver in that scenario. Now if a major collision or death occurs a full investigation would ensue and final charges would be left to the prosecution team though the officers would make a recommendation.

Feel free to check out page 63
https://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/SDOT/About/DocumentLibrary/Reports/2017_Traffic_Report.pdf

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[mark47n]

I don’t disagree with the cultural aspect regarding violating traffic laws, I admit to having done so and that it happens. I’m not justifying it and this is not a part of assertive riding. For the most part I see bike commuters obeying traffic signals unless the signal doesn’t detect bicycles. Again, I don’t excuse it, just acknowledge it. The bone of contention here is that no one is discussing unsafe drivers or drivers that intentionally endanger cyclists and they are out there.

Given that a vast majority of cyclists, of any stripe, own cars I feel comfortable saying that they are familiar with the rules of the road. The point of that document is absolutely to educate drivers on how to safely interact with cyclists on the road.

No one is questioning that cyclists are liable for any damage they inflict.

The comment about the lopsidedness of citations is pretty well documented. drivers, by and large, are not cited in collisions with cyclists even when the evidence is overwhelming. This is a nationwide issue. The study you cite has no mention that I could find regarding citations. While there may not be data available, here in Seattle, it’s been studied elsewhere. One of the most common excuses that drivers use is that the cyclist did something “unexpected”, never mind that the driver’s responsibility is to be sure to account for the fact that cyclists have to avoid gratings, be careful of RR tracks, debris in the road, etc. This is one of the reasons that the 3′ rule exists. Also demonstrated, in one of the studies that I perused, was that many cops don’t always know the laws as they pertain to cyclists such as I am not compelled to use a bike lane or path if it exists, it’s up to my discretion to determine what is safer. A good example of that would be the “bike path” under the viaduct. It runs through parking lots, is full of debris, often has tents and is crowded with pedestrians. As I can reasonably predict what a car will do I’ll take the car over erratic pedestrians and people backing out of parking spaces.

There are things that need to change. Cyclists really do need to follow the law but many traffic laws are not well adapted to cyclists.

FYI, Idaho cyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs. How do you like them apples?

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by mark47n. Reason: Wanted to clean up my 4AM writing

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[TSurly]

This morning on my bike commute to downtown, an asian male in his early to mid 30’s driving a white jeep cherokee/grand cherokee (didn’t get his plate #) got pissed that I took the lane riding down Avalon. I was keeping pace with traffic, so I don’t know what his issue was. He dicided to pass me on the short stretch of Yancy between Avalon and Andover, needing to speed (my speedometer was reading 27), go head on to oncoming traffic, and slam on his brakes at the bottom of the hill when he got to the queue at the stop sign. I caught up to him at the light of Andover and Delridge and gave him an earful (no cursing) about his stupid, dangerous move to get no further ahead and just sit in more traffic. Of course he waited until the light changed, and as he was driving on Delridge towards the bridge, rolled down his window and yelled “stay left a**hole.”

Hopefully the coward will man up and come on here to explain/justify his actions, but I’m not holding my breath. He’s probably still sitting in traffic.

Unforntunately I did not have my helmet camera with me today, it would have been a nice video to share. Moving forward, I think I’m going to update this thread (or start a new one with a more catchy subject line) with a video link each time a driver endangers me or another cyclist. I need to limit the scope to just that, because posting video everytime a driver endangers a pedestrian or another driver would be a full time job.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by TSurly.

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[EdSane]

@mark47n, the thread was directed at bicyclists and issues they present specifically to cars. I don’t see this as a bone of contention. Issues on drivers is a separate topic. Which is why I pointed out that the document you presented is only helpful if it’s acknowledged that the code of conduct drivers are expected to show towards riders is equally shown by bicyclists. For example, I need to give at least 3 feet of room when passing a bicyclist. They should give me the same courtesy too and not slide within inches of my mirror at 15 mph on a crowded street or take up all of Delridge when there are no parked cars and staying to the right was both safe and prudent. This is what I mean when its a cultural attitude. An us vs them mentality that many bicyclists display when they ride around and some of them intentionally antagonize drivers.

To be clear my wish for some form of registration has nothing to do with needing licensing for rules of the road. I’d be happy if bicycle serial numbers were large and permanently affixed to be easily read. I feel that a lot of the issues (both bicycle & drivers) are that people feel ‘anonymous’ when they are out in public and that should not be the case when they are utilizing public roads.

As to the article I cited. My point there was that the data is clearly being collected including a section on pedestrian accidents. This leads me to believe that police do actively investigate issues. I don’t disagree with a lack of citations. But my point is that this is not limited to bicyclists. In the majority of non-major (no fatality or serious injury) accidents where there is a lack of direct evidence there is unlikely to be any citation. I’m just not buying into a conspiracy against bicyclists.

@tsurly, I’m sorry that happened to you. However, the theme of the thread was directed at misbehaving bicyclists. To me this is more of a civics issue rather then political. But, it seems this is fracturing along tribal lines which is more true of politics then anything. It seems to me that the underlying theme of your posts is that we cannot at all address issues with bicyclists until all bad drivers are dealt with. This seems more related to how political parties argue that we can’t talk about ‘this’ issue until ‘that’ issue has been handled. How would anything work with those types of ultimatums? And again I ask what was the purpose of the personal attack other then to discredit my voice rather then discuss the topic at hand?

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[AJP]

The damage a car can do–to a cyclist, to a pedestrian, to another car, to trees, houses, infrastructure is far greater than a cyclist can do to any of those things. Just look at the viaduct this afternoon. A crash where no one was hurt, effectively grinding the city to a halt. The risk involved with cyclist accidents simply doesn’t warrant the amount of money needed to spend on enforcement and accountability. Risk vs. benefit does not add up.

You’re saying cyclists and drivers should be equally accountable, but they don’t cause equal damage. You’re saying cyclists have an “us vs. them” mentality, and not acknowledging that drivers have an “us vs. them” mentality while driving a 2000+ lb vehicle. You’re saying there’s a cultural attitude that cyclists (definitely the minority) have against drivers (most cyclists are also drivers), but why do you not acknowledge the cultural attitudes of drivers who antagonize cyclists, at the risk of actually hurting them?

As a cyclist and a driver, I see good drivers, terrible drivers, and extremely dangerous drivers. I see good cyclists and rude cyclists, but when cyclists are rude the only person they’re putting in harm’s way is themselves (with some rare exceptions, mostly to pedestrians).

Not to mention that the majority of cyclists are working class, often poor, who would like to drive but can’t afford to. Are you in favor of adding another regulation and fee to the working class and poor?

Again, just straight across, the amount of money a cyclist can do in damage is nowhere near what the cost of regulating cyclists would be. It’s financially irresponsible.

http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/memo-to-cities-most-cyclists-arent-urban-hipsters.html

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-break-traffic-laws-any-more-than-drivers-do/

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