Sad Milestone: 4000 US Soldiers Dead in Battle in Iraq

[JanS]

“Anyway try not to be so one sided and closed minded, just because I believe differently than you, should not make you resort to inuendo”

“Seriously, your mind is like a parachutte,my grandmother used to say. It has to be open to work.”

“how strange that you sit around and accuse republicans of being so close minded when clearly some of you have taken it to an art form.”

I’m not going to get into the “debate” here, but…since you’re throwing out these…hmmm…is accusations the right word? maybe you should take some of your own advice….it DOES go both ways.

JMHO

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[JanS]

New Res..I like you…but…again…it goes both ways…both sides get argumentative…and both sides are stubborn…and you know that neither side is going to convince the other :) One can hope, but….

OK…back into my hole now ;-)

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[barmargia]

This is pretty much why I don’t discuss politics with anyone including my family and friends. Each side gets belligerent and each side is the only right side…in their opinions.

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[Anonymous]

barmargia – Very, very true.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Barmagia-very true..but for some reason I still find it fascinating. It is amaizing how much you can educate yourself by listening/reading others opinions about topics like war or political canidates. Who knows maybe someday someone just my sway my stance on someone or soemthing!?!?!

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[Anonymous]

JanS – I agree with you that no one is going to change anyone’s mind and everyone thinks they are right.

However, that being said, I do not appreciate being dismissed as unintelligent, discredited, or having words put into my mouth. And, unfortunately, this happens on a regular basis.

I do not recall ever doing that to anyone, but it is done to me a lot. And I believe in defending myself.

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[Anonymous]

JanS – I agree with you that no one is going to change anyone’s mind and everyone thinks they are right.

However, that being said, I do not appreciate being dismissed as unintelligent, discredited, or having words put into my mouth. And, unfortunately, this happens on a regular basis.

I do not recall ever doing that to anyone, but it is done to me a lot. And I believe in defending myself.

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[JanS]

hey..we’re all different…if we all believed, said, did the same thing..how boring would this world be. It’s politics…it’s not a personal affront, or shouldn’t be. I’m a nice person, you’re a nice person…we’re both good people…just simply ourselves. That’s what we all have to remember. I may disagree with you, and vice versa, on some things, but there are many more that we do agree on, I’m sure…

:)

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[JanS]

Something I learned a long time ago, and it’s very hard to put into practice…sometimes I’m successful, sometimes I’m not…one of the “Four Agreements”, from the book of the same title by Don Miguel Ruiz…”Never take anything personally”, both the good and the bad…because it’s not really about us, it’s about the person dishing. Makes life pretty good most of the time …

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[JoB]

it was a good day to take a joy ride.. and i did:)

Tonya… i find it very hard to blithely dismiss the 4,000 lives and 29,000 wounded … having actually lived through the Vietnam conflict as a young woman… and having volunteered with paraplegics vets upon their return.

many of the still walking wounded from VietNam are friends of mine. In fact, i just got back from visiting my cousin who is one of the many who have never been able to adapt to regular civilian life. He lives in a trailer in the desert.. rarely going to town.

I have made friends with many of the vets from the first gulf war who now live with gulf war syndrome… we share a similar illness and challenges.

i have a friend who is trying to help her son sort through the mess he made of his life due to post traumatic stress syndrome… when he returned to the states from 3 tours diffusing land mines… … they would like to send him back.

And i have a nephew who is too close to all of this for my comfort.

His friends, who completed their enlistments are back for another tour… with no end in sight.

You ask how we can manage the troops.. it’s simple. We are abusing those who were idealistic enough to sign for the military to defend this country.

They are on never ending tours… called back after their enlistments end.

They are guard members called repeatedly to serve with inferior equipment and little training… bankrupting their families at home with repeated tours.

We are paying through the nose for a private militia… who by the way actually have contracts that are enforced.. far better pay.. and far better benefits than our military… and no accountability.

The human cost for this war is too high… The economic cost is too high.

have you not noticed that this war is not pulling us out of our recession Tonya… we dive deeper and the war goes on.

As for Cambodia, dates don’t tell the whole story.

Why do you think we left Vietnam in the first place? We were not winning…

We stood no more chance of winning in Cambodia.

Abandoning those who fought for us was immoral…

but staying would have only increased the death count of both Americans and Cambodians.

I know it is popular to look at those conflicts through a revisionist’s eye.. but the truth is that we are encountering the same difficulties in Iraq that we encountered in VietNam… and we aren’t much better at it now.

We were in Vietnam for the toehold in the southeast asia.. and to save the world from communism.

sound familiar? it should.

One of the best rationalizations for why we should never invade and occupy Iraq was given by Paul Cheney.. at the end of the first gulf war.

look it up.. the video is really instructive.

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[Tonya42]

“JoB

Member

Tonya… i find it very hard to blithely dismiss the 4,000 lives and 29,000 wounded … having actually lived through the Vietnam conflict as a young woman… and having volunteered with paraplegics vets upon their return.”

Let me second that JoB, I would hope that nobody would blithely dismiss our servicemen, dead or alive as well..

Thank you for taking the time to lay out where you stand with a rational and courteous response, I appreciate that.

You and I have different understandings of the war in Vietnam. I think we as a society have learned the hard way, notably in the Vietnam war, that military victories are not enough. American troops scored a big victory on the battlefield in 1968 that was presented in the American media as a big defeat — and that began the political unravelling of the Vietnam war.

The media seem to think that they did something noble, to get us out of an “unwinnable” war. But the war was unwinnable only because they made it so politically. Even after American troops were withdrawn from Vietnam, South Vietnam was able to hold off the invaders from North Vietnam.

Only after Congress cut off financial support for South Vietnam, while the North Vietnamese continued to get support from the Communist bloc, did South Vietnam fall.

Since then, even the Communist conquerors have admitted that they did not win on the battlefield, but in the American media and in the American political arena, surrounded by an atmosphere created by a defeatist media.

So I do feel most comfortable asking about dates with regard to when the 2 plus million Cambodians were slaughtered.

We could lose this war in Iraq, and if we do it will be a political loss.Right now as I type this troops in Iraq have had their hands tied with “rules of engagement” based on political, rather than military, considerations. This is not good.

Its safe to say that we have opposing views to Vietnam as well as Iraq and that’s okay.

The most fundamental difference between President Bush and his critics has not been in who has made mistakes, because both have. The biggest difference has been that the President has taken a long-run view of the worldwide war on terror, while his critics are seeking a quick fix. I’ve never bought into quick fixes and I don’t intend on starting now.

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[Tonya42]

“JoB

Member

Tonya… i find it very hard to blithely dismiss the 4,000 lives and 29,000 wounded … having actually lived through the Vietnam conflict as a young woman… and having volunteered with paraplegics vets upon their return.”

Let me second that JoB, I would hope that nobody would blithely dismiss our servicemen, dead or alive as well..

Thank you for taking the time to lay out where you stand with a rational and courteous response, I appreciate that.

You and I have different understandings of the war in Vietnam. I think we as a society have learned the hard way, notably in the Vietnam war, that military victories are not enough. American troops scored a big victory on the battlefield in 1968 that was presented in the American media as a big defeat — and that began the political unravelling of the Vietnam war.

The media seem to think that they did something noble, to get us out of an “unwinnable” war. But the war was unwinnable only because they made it so politically. Even after American troops were withdrawn from Vietnam, South Vietnam was able to hold off the invaders from North Vietnam.

Only after Congress cut off financial support for South Vietnam, while the North Vietnamese continued to get support from the Communist bloc, did South Vietnam fall.

Since then, even the Communist conquerors have admitted that they did not win on the battlefield, but in the American media and in the American political arena, surrounded by an atmosphere created by a defeatist media.

So I do feel most comfortable asking about dates with regard to when the 2 plus million Cambodians were slaughtered.

We could lose this war in Iraq, and if we do it will be a political loss.Right now as I type this troops in Iraq have had their hands tied with “rules of engagement” based on political, rather than military, considerations. This is not good.

Its safe to say that we have opposing views to Vietnam as well as Iraq and that’s okay.

The most fundamental difference between President Bush and his critics has not been in who has made mistakes, because both have. The biggest difference has been that the President has taken a long-run view of the worldwide war on terror, while his critics are seeking a quick fix. I’ve never bought into quick fixes and I don’t intend on starting now.

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[JoB]

Tonya,

i don’t believe we won anything in Viet Nam…

Nor have i talked with anyone who served who believes we won anything.

My random sample may be self selecting as I don’t believe we had any business being there in the first place… but i do talk with my brother’s older buddies who were there and are definately pro military and think we should be in Iraq.. and even they don’t think we won or were about to win anything in either Viet Nam or Cambodia. To a man… they consider it a cesspool we were lucky to get out of.

Could we have continued to hold territory? yes.

We continue to hold territory in Korea… but we didn’t win there either.

As for the long range view on terrorism… by any standard, terrorism is more of a threat to American safety now than it was when we started this war. We have not done much to win the hearts and minds of the arab people…

If your goal is the long range establishment of a military base in the middle east and the protection of American oil interests.. then you have a point.

As for us getting out.. no presidential candidate has suggested dismantling the green zone.. which .. with it’s luxuries… does much to inflame public opinion … in a country in which safe zones may have the use of electricity for a small period of the day and no running water… and the rest of the country does without.

There is no doubt that our government has settled in for the long haul.

I am for the oil companies paying their own private mercanaries (instead of the American taxpayer footing the bill) and for letting them maintain the green zone.

With gas the price that it is now and oil company profits what they are now.. it’s kind of difficult to get any real enthusiasm for paying for their excess.

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[JanS]

ok..point of order here…there is no “war” to”win” or “lose”…it was never declared a war by Congress, as far as I know. So, what we have is a confrontation? an occupation? what the hell is it that we’re sending our children over to die for blithely? It has nothing to do with 9/11. Osama bin Laden is still being an independent film maker. So, in simplistic terms..not condescending terms…tell me why WE have to be the ones to control everything everytime. Tonya, I don’t know you, but if this is such a noble of a cause to you, why are you here arguing? why haven’t you taken up the torch and gotten to volunteering? By the way..I WAS in the army in the Vietnam era, although was never there…and I did volunteer.

We are so quick to say it’s fine when it’s someone else’s children doing the fighting…while we get to sit back and say how wonderful it is. Doesn’t work in my book if you support it – put your money where your mouth is. JMHO.

Let’s make one thing clear here. Those of us against this little “war” of George Bush’s doing…are no less patriotic than anyone else. We support the troops, but would rather support them coming home as soon as possible.

back into my hole..time for bed…

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[JoB]

there you go… from another vet.. even if she didn’t make it to vietnam… she was actually willing to go. And i am quite sure she counts more than one vietnam vet among her friends.

JanS’s comments are pretty typical of what i hear from my vet friends Tonya…

If we had stayed in Vietnam and Cambodia… how many mroe American lives do you think would have been lost in the process…

and how many countries can we afford to keep a “peace presence” in.. let alone occupy as we now do Iraq.

I have honestly lost count of how many countries we are in now.. and i would challenge most Americans to come up with an accurate toll.

We may have become accustomed to these “police actions” .. but it doesn’t make them right… and they certainly aren’t cost effective.

We have been in Korea how long? And what do we have to show for it? Just lately our President was making noises about taking us back into Korea in armed conflict…

Enough is enough.

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[Tonya42]

Wow, so much to respond to but that will have to wait until I can devout a good 20 minutes to writing it up.

Jan – perhaps you can’t help yourself but you do sound condescending.

For the record, I am not speaking out of my ass, I have family in Iraq and Afghanistan and have brothers who served in Vietnam. Even puttin gthat aside, there are 2 million reason I could think of that would be of value enough to me to have made staying worthwhile.

More later when I get off work, thanks for responding.

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[barmargia]

Okay, I’m going to just throw my two cents in, I’m in the military, if/when called to go, I will go, my boyfriend is a military contractor and he was gone for a year and a half, prepping for his next deployment. I have friends over there now, friends who have been over there, and friends getting ready to go over there. We are doing our jobs, that is what we signed up to do, because this is still a voluntary force, we are doing what a lot of people won’t do for whatever reason. But I know that when I see people screaming at each other about their side being right it doesn’t seem like anyone is supporting the troops. They are supporting their own initiatives. I’m not going to go into whether I think this is a fair and just war, Jan get all technical you want, but it’s called a war, but I know that while I wear the uniform I will do my job until my job is over.

okay, maybe that was more than 2 cents, maybe about 5

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[JoB]

barmargia…

it is possible to support the troops and not support the war they are called to fight.

I have incredible respect for the military and on more than one occasion have personally stepped up to support both those going to our wars and those who return from our wars.

when a women’s group in minnesota has to fund raise to provide body armour for it’s state’s national guard members.. something is wrong. … and we did.

I think the troops are doing one heck of a job in an almost impossible situation.

i just don’t think they should be in that impossible situation.

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