Protests during the anthem

[JanS]

what angers me, I think, is the fact that so many people yell about disrespecting the flag and disrespecting the military, when, in actuality, that has nothing to do with taking a knee during the national anthem, with the topic that Mr. Kaepernick is peacefully “protesting”.False nationalism or patriotism or whatever you want to call it rears its head once again, and the true topic is ignored, and he is called a “traitor” by the execs in the NFL. Shame on them.

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[JTB]

JanS, I think the term you are looking for is “vulgar nationalism.”

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[JKB]

Sherman, and also Doug Baldwin, have done a great job of expressing themselves without being disruptive or offensive.

The various players doing the raised-fist black-power bit, not so much. Some coaches – or GMs – ought to sit them down for a chat. A nice one, starting with “what message are you trying to send?”

I was really changing my mind about Kaepernick. The switch from sitting on his ass to taking a knee struck a good balance. Then this morning’s news has him at an Oakland high school taking pics with the kids doing raised-fist and laying on the ground doing hands-up during the anthem. He’s back on the naughty list, at least for me.

Completely agree that Charlotte (Tulsa, police conduct, BLM…) should be a separate thread.

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[JoB]

JKB

You don’t find it socially acceptable that Kaepernick makes his point.

I don’t find it socially acceptable that having your hands raised over your head is not enough of an indicator that you are not being an aggressor to prevent being shot by the people we hire to protect us.

I get this isn’t your priority
but i don’t get why

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[JKB]

And we descend into personal attacks. JoB, you ‘get’ nothing except the drama of screaming at people.

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[JKB]

Otherwise, imagine trying to make a point or persuade someone. Do you grab that person’s shirt and scream obscenities at them? It would get their attention.

No, on any other topic you wouldn’t do that. So on this one, try staying reasonable. It’ll help get to an actual conversation.

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[JanS]

JKB…could you be any more offensive? We get that you don’t like the black man making his point the way he does. He’s being “uppity”. He should just conform to what the white people want , and leave it at that. How disrespectful to think that you and other, yes, white people, should be able to say what his 1st Amendment rights are or are not. You miss his point entirely. No one is screaming at you. We are simply disagreeing with you.I thought JoB was being VERY reasonable, considering…just responding to what your were saying. Personal? That wasn’t a personal attack. You would know if it was, believe me.

Especially after this weekend and the tragedies in Tulsa, and Charlotte, I think Mr. Kaepernick is right on. You can’t divorce the two topics. It’s what it’s about, for goodness sake. If you are still believing that it’s simply to disrespect the flag, and the Military, you would be wrong, and you don’t understand the whole point behind his “protest”.

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[JanS]

again, JKB…I have no idea how old you are. I am 69…and lived through the late 60’s in Washington, DC. I was there when MLK was killed, and there were riots in DC, fires, ugliness. For the years I was there, until I joined the army in 1972, I saw many demonstrations, went through tear gas, saw the struggle. That was 50+ years ago. We thought there was progress…how misguided we were/are. The ugliness is out there. Maybe you and I can’t relate because we’re not black. We will never know the fear of just sitting in your car reading a book, for instance, and suddenly, you’re the suspect, for no reason, and you are shot walking backwards, not being aggressive at all, not being a danger to those police who decide to end your life just like that…for no reason. I’m trying to understand how that can happen, trying to understand being afraid to simply leave your home because heaven forbid you are mistaken for someone else, or you have a taillight out, or you are going home from school, and your car breaks down, and being someone 6’2″, all of a sudden you are “looking like one bad dude”. We will never know that fear. Never! I am beginning to understand the Kaepernick protest, the raised fist. It starts the conversation that we badly need to have. We, you and me,we are so privileged because of who we are and what we look like…:(

• This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JanS.

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[JKB]

JanS, please name one specific thing I’ve said that was offensive.

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[JoB]

JKB

How is it a personal attack to restate the position you have taken, state a countering position and then tell you that i don’t get your reasoning?

was i inaccurate when i said that you don’t find this protest socially acceptable?

• This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JoB.

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[JanS]

well, now, JKB..let’s try this on…a personal attack of another member on this forum:

1.
JKB

Participant
And we descend into personal attacks. JoB, you ‘get’ nothing except the drama of screaming at people.

2. Otherwise, imagine trying to make a point or persuade someone. Do you grab that person’s shirt and scream obscenities at them? It would get their attention.

No, on any other topic you wouldn’t do that. So on this one, try staying reasonable. It’ll help get to an actual conversation.

because, after all, you ASSume that you’re the only good point here…that’s offensive…at least it is to me. Belittling others seems to be a hobby of yours when they disagree. But it’s easy to be that way when you are on an anonymous forum, and no one knows who you are, isn’t it?

Conversation? It’s not a conversation when you respond like the above instead of actually discussing.

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[JanS]

see ya…this thread is going nowhere…in my opinion, of course.

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[JKB]

Whether I find the protest or its content acceptable was never the point. This was always about the venue – disruption of the anthem as an insult to the country. That’s what I had issue with.

The claim that [peaceful people being shot by police] was not my priority was the irritating bit. Whether or not that’s what’s happening, that claim presumes to know a lot about what’s in my head. And it presumes to judge.

The drama of screaming at people is unfortunately relevant on this topic. Some have argued that giving offense by disrupting the anthem is deliberate, to get attention. The BlackLivesMatter group has used the approach. So reading what to me was rather a non sequitur, followed by a pretty negative personal judgment, I was not amused.

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[JoB]

JKB

If you want your protest to be effective. you do what you have to do to get the public’s attention.. because if the public was already willing to acknowledge the problem you wouldn’t have to protest.

Personally i find the actions which have led to the need for this protest offensive.. not only morally but as an affront to the respect for which i hold the ideals of this country… one of which is equal treatment under the law.

equality falls really short when the color of your skin is enough reason to suspect you of criminal behavior..

This has to change .. and change isn’t a comfortable process.. so if shouting in faces is what it takes to get attention.. i am all for it.

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[redblack]

i attended a few post-9/11 sonics games at key arena. i sat through every performance of the national anthem that i witnessed there. i wore my hat, too.

what can i say? i was pissed off at our country’s ridiculous and terrified policy of bombing first and asking questions later. i was, at times, ashamed to be american; especially during such frivolous first-world events as corporate basketball games.

during those anthems, i remember fully expecting some patriotic scoundrel to engage me at any moment for my lack of reverence to the country, the troops, george bush, israel, iraq, exxon, howard schultz, or whatever else we were supposed to be blindly genuflecting for. i felt alone and exposed. i think my wife stood, but she doesn’t judge me. and even if she did stand, she fully understood my frustration.

and i was just some nobody in the seattle rank and file who got comp’ed or free tickets. (gary payton was gone, so my heart really wasn’t in it anyway.)

unlike me, though, kaepernick is a millionaire. as frivolous as his job is, he has celebrity status. if he chooses to use that as a means of speaking to an issue that he cares about, then i applaud him for opening national dialogue.

like it or not, OP, we are talking about it.

and i know i’m not following the OP’s arbitrary rules of engagement, but you’ll have to endure that from time to time in free western societies – and on other people’s servers, no less.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by redblack.

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[redblack]

don’t feel bad, though.

kaepernick suckered entire global communication networks and the slow-witted sleeping giant that is the NFL fan base into talking about what it means to be a proud american.

it wasn’t just you.

cleverly played, IMHO.

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[JKB]

Based on his season so far, Kaepernick has a lot of free time to plot.

Right now he can’t play. A helmet doesn’t fit over that ‘fro and the trainers make you wear one on the field.

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[JKB]

So to Charlotte. How does the narrative of racist white cops killing unarmed blacks fit with the cop being black himself?

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[JoB]

JKB
Why define the issue as racist white cops killing unarmed blacks…
there is a much more interesting conversation to be had..

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias

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[JKB]

JoB, I do understand the ‘get their attention’ or ‘get people talking’ points. But a caution: it can be taken too far. Play the card too strongly, and the response is negative. I think the BlackLivesMatter people have been way over the line, for instance. And I was pleasantly surprised to see the NFL players mostly having their say without excess.

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[JoB]

JKB

you know what.. the argument you make is exactly the argument made about women’s lib.. in the late 70s.. and as a result women toned down their rhetoric.

although the national conversation about women’s equality had reached such critical mass that the ERA was passed in Congress.. when women followed the advice you give.. that critical mass stalled and it was never ratified.

I am thinking that is not a good outcome.

the squeaky wheel does get the grease.. and the louder it squeaks the more likely it is to be greased.

Please, take the time to read the article i posted.. it’s not a fluff opinion piece

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[JKB]

I would love to see the narrative defined otherwise. ‘Racist white cops slaughtering blacks’ is what I hear being protested, not what I propose to discuss.

Some time ago I dug through the data at the Guardian’s ‘thecounted’ project. One bit that surfaced is that racial disparities were very local. We have problems in hotspots, not overall.

Lately I’ve been seeing reports that police use of force correlates with criminal activity, and not with race once you break down by the situation. Try

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?0p19G=c which was #11 in the VanityFair piece you posted.

Bottom line is that I object to the knee jerk conclusion that white people are all racists. Which I’ve heard from BLM, in just those words. I think we should also look at police culture. Are they too enemy-focused, which works for the military but not for local police? Or do blacks just commit that many more crimes? If so, why is that?

More than anything, what I have a problem with is that you can’t ask those questions. It’s as if street protests define the truth and anything else is treated as inhuman. Yeah, I don’t care for how this discussion works.

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[JoB]

JKB..

I am confused as to why you would cite evidence that is considered flawed and then reference the article I posted when #5 in that article comes to exactly the opposite conclusion?

In fact, the preponderance of the research cited in that article …as well as the preponderance of actual research… comes to exactly the opposite conclusion.

when you define the discussion to “white people are all racists” you limit the scope of available information… like the huge discussion currently happening about the militarization of police forces.. which btw.. when you combine it with the premise that blacks just commit that many more crimes.. another premise countered in that article by data… causes a lot of the localization of “problems”.. which btw isn’t as localized as you would think.

Are you forgetting that our local police are under scrutiny for exactly those “problems” ?

Those questions are being asked.. and answered.

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[JTB]

I will allow that undoubtedly some BLM activists have said “white people are all racists” and to the extent that happens, I think it tends to inhibit dialogue and examination. That said, I appreciate that one of the tasks of BLM is to make people uncomfortable about the tolerance this nation has for systemic racism. That means very uncomfortable, unavoidably uncomfortable and all people—white, black, brown, yellow, whatever. I would much rather see BLM demonstrators challenging everyone to: Get Involved; Be Intolerant of Racism; Act Now; Wake Up People; Racism Hurts Everyone; etc. as well as advocate for specific national and local reforms.

Because racism is systemic, there are many ways it manifests, from active perpetuation to unconscious acceptance and ultimately to adaptation (the most telling sign of how effective any form of discrimination is). BLM has a lot of work to do in the black community as well as in challenging white America if we are going to ever push back and accomplish more results in overcoming the destructive legacy racism has had on this nation.

While of course a lot of that involves obvious discriminatory race issues, a lot also involves systemic, structural economic issues that affect everyone. Unfortunately the political dialogue in this country is so low that the latter point is not appreciated by many well-intended politicians, activists and ordinary citizens of all races. While I’m not very optimistic about making accomplishments in the short term, I believe we have to choose to work on it rather than allow it to continue.

BTW, a telephone survey is going on right now that strives to assess community attitudes about and experience with the SPD. Some of it concerns perceptions about racist behavior as well as general performance. Unfortunately it isn’t time specific—-like “in the past 12 months” which I think would be important to avoid carry over from the time leading up to and immediately following the DOJ consent decree. The other lacking element is there are no questions about the roll of the Police Officers Guild in defending racists cops and opposing the new contract which calls for more independent voices in oversight and accountability of police.

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[JanS]

JKB…I said I was done…but sometimes someone needs to be called out…

“Right now he can’t play. A helmet doesn’t fit over that ‘fro and the trainers make you wear one on the field.”

bit of a bigoted statement there, in my opinion…it’s not funny. And is NOT the reason for what is happening. It’s just ignorant. And it’s a bit of insight, too…

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