- This topic has 120 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by redblack.
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September 10, 2016 at 12:58 pm #857305
JKBParticipantOpen note to Colin Kaepernick, and the various others who’ve been sitting out the National Anthem:
“The Star-Spangled Banner” is one of a few symbols of the country. The bald eagle and the flag itself are others. They do not represent a specific administration or policy, but rather the country as a whole.
So when a protest strikes against the anthem, it is against the country. It’s the same as burning a flag, except there won’t be charges of arson. I doubt Kaepernick and others meant that, but it’s what they’re saying.
Probably there is no person who claims this country is perfect, and certainly there’s disagreement about what ‘perfect’ would even be. In this country, that’s fine. But the First Amendment doesn’t guarantee you a venue or audience.
Kaepernick’s decided he’s sufficiently upset about an issue to pitch a public fit about it. Fine, he should find himself a venue and say his piece. Best of all, make a proposal of what to do about it. But the anthem isn’t a venue available for the taking, and those who stand on a public stage and disregard it send a message quite different from the one they probably intended.
(and to make this local enough to be vaguely on-topic for WSB – some Seahawk players are talking in these terms too, and the team has announced some sort of ‘unity’ thing for tomorrow)
September 10, 2016 at 2:20 pm #857308
wsn00bParticipantI think your anger is misdirected. Congress insults our vets on a daily basis when they do jack about supporting their sacrifice. Have you looked at the disrespect they get when they come back to no economic support or shoddy/missing healthcare? Waving a flag and singing an anthem isn’t how you support or respect vets. Symbolism, is well symbolism and not action. Standing for an anthem is rather meaningless for a homeless vet on the sidewalk outside the Seahawks stadium. If you truly want to support vets and the country, go yell at Congress.
I do agree that the football players have no solution just like the rest of our country’s leadership and citizenry. But he’s a damn football player. Not a Governor or Congressman.
It’s a perfectly great venue to remind people of what’s plaguing the country. It’s not like we are paying attention to C-SPAN. ESPN works great.
September 11, 2016 at 9:56 am #857377
scottParticipantThe anthem is, and has been, just as legtimate a ‘venue’ for free speech as anything else. I have a lot more respect for Kaepernick’s message than any of the subsequent whining. Talk about pitching a fit…
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by scott.
September 11, 2016 at 12:03 pm #857383
GreystreetParticipantI had an interesting conversation with my mom on the phone about this just this morning, she was saying that she thought it ludicrous that this “one” person could think that he could make such a difference with his “one” action–I quickly reminded her that he has incited a national outrage over the exercise of his right to protest–I had to also remind her that she comes from the time of the sit-in and the protests of the Vietnam War era…nonetheless, I find it comical that everyone is losing their minds over this when ALL of America will watch any sport on TV and when the national anthem is played, do any of the people watching at home stand up? Remove their hats? Show any form of respect? Doubtful, but they’ll be the first ones to point fingers at someone who chooses not to do so at a public event. So does it mean that we are only to “stand and honor” when in the physical presence of the flag or at any time the anthem plays, even through a television set? I think when thought of in the context of who is making a statement and who is just finding a reason to pick apart someone’s beliefs this whole situation is a mess–I’m just proud to see professional athletes modeling the rights and behaviors we are entitled to in this country but that many of us misinterpret or don’t exercise, be them what they may.
September 11, 2016 at 12:56 pm #857391
JanSParticipantI’m a vet…Vietnam War era…and I don’t object. That anthem that supposedly represents the whole country, does not represent some. Have you listened/read the verses that are not sung? Oh, you say, those don’t matter, it’s just a song? Hah! We have freedoms in this country, but not for everyone, it seems. Kaep has the freedom AND the right to do what he did. If you’re offended by what he or other players are doing, you have the right to not watch. Funny how that works. Many are saying that it disrespects the flag…nope, not in my book. That flag means that they can protest. Many are saying it disrespects vets. Not this one. The protest has noting to do with vets. If you think it does, you don’t get it. And lastly, why has there never been an outcry about the disrespect that happens at many of the games already, where people start yelling, and hooting and hollering two thirds through the same anthem. No hands over hearts (which is not a necessity, mind you). Or those fans who use that time to go get another beer, game not even started yet. Yes, disrespect comes in many forms. Look inward, friends.
Go Hawks !
September 11, 2016 at 3:18 pm #857395
GreystreetParticipantWell said JanS!
September 11, 2016 at 8:40 pm #857440
KK50ParticipantIn response to the original post,JKB, what you have expressed is your opinion , which is respected, but should not to be confused with fact. I hope you are clear on the difference.
I see Kaepernicks actions as a higher form of patriotism when compared to standing for the National Anthem. Just my opinion.September 11, 2016 at 9:11 pm #857441
JKBParticipantKK50 – your post suggests without quite saying so, that I have presented opinion as fact. The last paragraph of my post is opinion; I thought that was obvious. The central theme of what comes before is the reminder that our national symbols refer to the country as a whole, not to specific policies. If that’s what you meant, I stand by it.
Let’s see…while we’re talking facts, I’d point JanS to the flag code. US Code, title 4. Where you claimed “hands over hearts…not a necessity”, note that the law does specify exactly that. It uses ‘men’ in an ambiguous 1940’s style, doesn’t carry legal penalties that are enforced, etc. But it’s not just Miss Manners talking.
JanS, thank you for your service. You’ve mentioned vet status several times; I would note that it doesn’t (nor does my own) confer any special credential in the conversation. Apologies if that wasn’t what you meant, but it can read that way.
As for my own opinion, I’m backing off on this one. I still think Kaepernick sitting on his ass was offensive. But I note quite a few players taking a knee, as if to reject the protocol on the grounds of having something else to say, without being disruptive or offensive. Call it civil disobedience if you will, but it’s done decently.
Question for anyone who cares to pick it up: what were the Seahawks all united about today? It made for a nice demonstration. But the whole racial-justice topic is pretty fractured, and it seems unlikely that they all think the same thing. I haven’t found anywhere that says what their message really was, just that they all said it together.
September 11, 2016 at 10:46 pm #857446
dobroParticipantDoug Baldwin made a statement and short video on his Twitter page…
https://twitter.com/search?q=doug%20baldwin&src=typd
Here are more statements from Baldwin and other teammates from a News Tribune report. All stuff that’s pretty easy to find if you’re interested in what the players are thinking about. It took me about 40 seconds.
“We wanted to do something together, as a team,” Baldwin said. “We wanted to honor the lives that were lost 15 years ago.
“The message we’re sending is that, yes, there are things in our country that need to be changed. But that’s why this country is so great, because we’re never afraid of facing those challenges head on. In this locker room of 53 guys, we believe that as a team, the only way we’re going to win the Super Bowl is if we do it together. That’s where we arrived that, if we’re going to do this, we have to do it together.
“We’ve come so far — you can’t take that for granted. We’ve come so far. But that doesn’t mean we rest on our laurels when we have so far to go.”
Some Seahawks, including Baldwin and Wilson, posted tweets prior to their season-opening game Sunday remembering the attacks of 9/11.
Players indicated the Seahawks will continue to hold demonstrations throughout the season, though what they entail will likely vary.
Players and staff came up with the idea together Friday, a couple of weeks after listening to Harry Edwards, a sociologist and longtime advocate of human and civil rights. Baldwin said they plan to meet with Seattle Mayor Ed Murray as well as “police chiefs across the state” to continue the discussion.
“We’re trying to build a bridge,” Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman said. “We’re trying to bring people together. We’re trying to help people understand that it’s not just a black problem. It’s not just black people or a minority problem. It’s everyone’s problem. Everyone lives in this country and we want to see it as great of a country as it can be.
“Obviously there is some … there is some backlash with police in the community and there is some distrust. But I think we’re going to do our best in the community of Seattle to improve that relationship.”
Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/nfl/seattle-seahawks/article101240532.html#storylink=cpy
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by dobro.
September 11, 2016 at 11:32 pm #857448
JanSParticipantJKB…to be clear. Many people are bringing up the disrespect to vets that taking a knee meant. Being a vet does not make me special, nor does it make me any better than anyone else…it just is what it is. I was just pointing out that this particular one (me) does not take offense.
September 12, 2016 at 10:11 am #857479
JTBParticipantFrom the beginning, I appreciated Kaepernick’s point about decrying injustice but felt he missed the opportunity to connect it directly to the real spirit of American patriotism (as opposed to what could be considered vulgar nationalism that is increasingly evident). I thought at the time that he should have stood and raised a clinched left fist while holding his hand over his heart—-no room for confusion. True patriotism at this juncture involves standing with those who are as prepared to fight for justice as have the predecessors who fought to defend our freedom.*
*While only occasionally taking it to some unfortunate banana republic or dictator just to send a message.
September 12, 2016 at 12:20 pm #857495
dobroParticipant“I thought at the time that he should have stood and raised a clinched left fist while holding his hand over his heart—-no room for confusion.”
Here’s the problem- there’s always room for confusion. Your suggestion of a clenched fist was used by a Miami Dolphin player and he was criticized in the press for being “confrontational”. You have a 3 part protest template here-stand, raise fist, hand over heart- that, to you, leaves no room for confusion about what the person is trying to say. I would hold that the only way to avoid confusion is a dialog with the people that are raising the issue and a willingness to listen without passing judgement about how they decide to express themselves (barring violence, of course). And, ultimately, a willingness to help bring positive change to the problems like institutional racism and serial violence by police toward black males.
September 12, 2016 at 1:39 pm #857503
anonymeParticipantI don’t really see this as any different than the model of non-violent resistance employed by the likes of Gandhi. I wouldn’t make a direct comparison between Gandhi and Kaepernick, mind you, but at least he seems to have put some real thought into the gesture. Personally, I’ve always thought that the “Star Spangled Banner” was a poor choice for a national anthem; for one thing, hardly anyone can hit those high notes.
September 13, 2016 at 12:12 pm #857621
JoBParticipantIn the 60s we heard “America, love it or leave it”
Our reply “America, love it enough to change it”.You can’t change it without starting conversations and nothing starts a conversation better than a sports figure…
While some of you are being offended by his choice to begin that conversation.. you might want to think about the reality of his life. When he leaves the stadium he becomes just another black man in a car that doesn’t fit the perceptions of what a black person should be able to afford to drive .. wearing clothing that doesn’t fit the perceptions of what a black person should be able to afford to wear.. unless of course they are involved in criminal pursuits.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that our black sports “heroes” have personally been affected by the kinds of misperceptions that literally leave others dead.
If i am offended, it is by those who have chosen to be offended rather than address the very real problems.
just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JoB.
September 13, 2016 at 12:34 pm #857623
anonymeParticipantJo, well said.
September 13, 2016 at 2:42 pm #857641
JKBParticipantdobro is absolutely right about room for misinterpretation. It’s one of the things making online conversations so difficult – anything can be read differently, and often will be. Sometimes deliberately.
In the clenched-fist example, is it the left or right hand? Does it matter? Does it refer to the 60’s Black Power salute? Many readers don’t know what that is, and probably only a few actually remember seeing it. Is it a call to violence? I guarantee that answers to any of these questions will vary, for no apparent reason.
September 14, 2016 at 10:50 am #857728
JoBParticipantJKB.. people are talking. if only about the “proper” way to demonstrate…
that is the point.
September 14, 2016 at 10:56 am #857729
JTBParticipantdobro and JKB, perhaps I’m thick, but I think most Americans perceive someone standing with their right hand over their heart during the playing of the national anthem as a sign of respect (generally some sort of patriotic respect). I wouldn’t imagine anyone who doesn’t get that wouldn’t get the significance of not standing. So I’m not thinking about that person.
A clinched fist is a universal sign of resistance. (A clinched fist is displayed on flags saying “For Bali” throughout south Bali to oppose a reclamation/development project that doesn’t benefit the local population). It can relate to the Black Power salute or not. What’s to misinterpret? Someone is clearly angry about something and is making that much obvious as well as their intent to participate as an American citizen. The particulars can be sorted out in conversation. That’s sort of the point. Of course there are people who will deliberately distort the symbolism. We should tailor symbolic demonstrations to them? Why bother? They don’t care.
September 14, 2016 at 7:01 pm #857778
JKBParticipantJoB, I’d feel better about people talking if the conversation wasn’t so dysfunctional.
September 23, 2016 at 10:47 am #858585
Betty453ParticipantKaepernick is just another ignorant Fool of privilege educated by the America Hating Liberal education machine and their is No finer example of that than when he wore his ” Fidel Castro ” shirt the other day.
I mean … That was Beautiful !
He was trying to make a statement about oppression and then puts on a T-shirt supporting a Murderous Thug ” Castro ” that has Executed whole families and imprisoned an entire nation for half a Century. Yes, that ” Castro ” or as some US Citizens that were fortunate enough to escape there own country refer to as Central America’s version of ” Stalin “. But, nobody can be surprised of Kaepernick’s Ignorance when our Very patriotic President OBama is seen chumming around with Fidel Castro’s Murderous Gangster brother ” Raul ” at a baseball game.Of course we ALL remember where we were when Obama was smiling having a great time at the Cuban Baseball game with the Murderous Raul because of all the Protests ? Oh wait.. there weren’t any. Nobody Cared !
Imagine what would have happened at that very Baseball game in Cuba if one of the Cuban players decided to embarrass the Cuban Dictator by kneeling down during the Cuban national Anthem ?
I think that the Castro’s since they were such Huge fans of Stalin would use the O’L ” Knock on the door ” technique that Stalin and his henchmen perfected with Kaepernick and his family.
— ” What ever happened to the Kaepernick’s ?
— I don’t know… Nobody has seen them since Colin Kneeled during the Anthem. We heard a loud knock on the door that night and ever since then nobody has seen them. ”September 23, 2016 at 12:05 pm #858592
JKBParticipantToday the Mariners suspended backup catcher Steve Clevengerbecause he tweeted offensively on a private account. Apparently Clev’s idea of private includes news people, and they took screenshots. I won’t quote the tweets in a nice place like this. They’re rude, and borderline illiterate, but we’ve all heard woree. Ballclubs have the right to dump someone, but they routinely tolerate much more serious misconduct,
September 23, 2016 at 3:55 pm #858615
JanSParticipantafter the happenings in the last few days in Charlotte, and Pastor Crutcher, etc, etc…I really don’t know about anyone else, but I am becoming more and more enlightened …as a white woman…why Mr. Kaepernick is doing what he’s doing, and why it’s spreading. I do not want to hear anything about disrespecting the flag or vets…that happens every day by more than black people, I assure you. I cannot comprehend being a black person who must be afraid of their very life for as little as having a tail light out, or your car breaking down…or police verbalizing ” he looks like one bad dude” just because he is black and isn’t 5’3″ tall. I am sadly becoming more and more disgusted by the comments of our lovely white privileged people , the ignorance…of many of their comments. Here, we thought we had come very far in this country, when in reality, we haven’t even come close.
September 23, 2016 at 5:38 pm #858616
JKBParticipantCharlotte. Two dead – one by a black police officer, the other by a rioter. I don’t say protestor. Once it escalates to looting and arson, it’s no longer a legal protest. All of this without results from the investigation.
September 24, 2016 at 8:24 am #858662
JoBParticipantJKB
Mr. Kaepernick is not rioting. He is exercising his free speech in the most effective national platform he has access to…The gentleman in Charlotte may or may not have been shot by a “protester” … but the truth is that the majority of the protestors in Charlotte have protested peacefully… a fact that gets very little news coverage.
when you repeatedly beat a dog and it bites you.. who is responsible? you? or the dog?
in our country.. the abusive human has a voice and the dog has none.. so we put down the dog..which doesn’t solve the problem, does it?
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by JoB.
September 24, 2016 at 11:43 am #858684
JTBParticipantI believe it is the responsibility of protest organizers to have a security detail alert and ready to shut down any provocateurs or crazies trying to promote violent behavior within the demonstration. That’s important to keep the message clear and to protect peaceful protesters from harm by the idiots or by police to who may react to isolated provocations more broadly than warranted. That’s based on my experience in the 60’s and of course now there are many more firearms in circulation so it may be more challenging to maintain control.
I think the topic of what professional athletes are doing with their demonstrations during the national anthem to encourage a discussion about injustice should be kept separate from discussions about Keith Scott and the Charlotte demonstrations. If the latter continues would someone start a new thread?
Meanwhile, I very much appreciate how Richard Sherman moved to further the message intended by the national anthem protests. I hope the players continue to incrementally press the issue. I noticed an article about how viewership has been low in the games following the protests and asserting they are the cause for the fall-off. Maybe, maybe not, but even that suggestion help further the discussion about the tolerance Americans have for racial injustice.
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