Let’s get behind solutions for programs that work to combat homelessness

[Talaki34]

OMG!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[JoB]

Captain dave..

“I think he is the only one who can seriously beat Clinton and stop a third term of the Obama debt disaster.”

again.. you seem to have a complete unwillingness to consider any facts that get in the way of your story.. and i am not talking about Trump beating Clinton.. i personally hope that match-up doesn’t happen.. but about the Obama debt disaster….

The actual data does not support that assertion.. in fact.. the data for decades supports debt inflation under Republican presidencies.

i am not going to send you to a link.. not because i can’t find one but because it would make no difference to your story..

and i find that incredibly sad.

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[captainDave]

JoB: I did not say that Trump was the perfect candidate. He would have no chance if our political establishment in both parties did their jobs in accordance to their respective oaths of office.

But here we are: Nearly 20 trillion in debt, highest number of people on welfare, lowest number of full time real jobs in 30 years, stagnate wages, a mass exodus of companies fleeing from the highest corporate taxes in the world, lowest number of new business start ups ever recorded since they started counting, highest number of destitute homeless since the depression… etc. etc.

Trump’s major appeal is jobs, security and his apparent lack of obligation owed to the corrupt unelected power centers who have controlled our politics for decades. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that reducing monopolistic regulatory barriers and taxes will restore the productive side of our economy.

Who are the fools here? Obama got elected on the promises of free stuff on the credit of people who haven’t even been born yet while he strangles the middle class out of existence. Hillary vows to continue the same program while the country is on the verge of another economic collapse.

JanS: You really need to open the scope of your reading to include more than just the left leaning news sources. You will find that facts are twisted to fit narratives on both sides more today than anytime in recent history. Data and logic matter, otherwise its like trying to play checkers in a tri-level chess tournament.

Look up Stefan Molyneux on Youtube for some fun!

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[JanS]

there is no logic about Donald Trump….

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[waynster]

and there is no logic about sanders……Hilary Clinton all the way…!

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[structos]

CaptainDave – keep up the good fight. You are not alone in your assessment of the loony liberal vitriol that JanS and others on this string continually spread throughout the blog. I check in every so often and her, jtb, job, etc… apparently have endless free time to eschew the same kind of ‘more free government stuff will cure all human failures’ (like drug addiction) that has/is destroying Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago, etc… Sorry, no ‘save the world solutions’ to offer JanS tonight as she sits in her rocking chair collecting her well earned Govmint SS check… just tired of reading the endless ‘take something from somebody else and it will cure the world’s problems’ one liners from the same dozen bloggers over and over and over and over and over and over… you get the picture.

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[captainDave]

JanS: To say that there is NO logic about Trump is to dismiss a significant number of Americans who see the logic in doing the things that restore free-market capitalism which has, time and time again, proven to be the only driver of diversified economic prosperity that enriches the broadest range of people. Good jobs reduce homelessness, depression and drug use.

Waynster: Hillary is embracing essentially a third term of Obama’s policies which have led to widespread homelessness and poverty throughout America. Her foreign policy execution is directly responsible for the build up of ISIS and the massive refugee migration happening in Europe. She is currently under investigation for serious crimes that could make her unqualified to be a janitor at public high school. Her top campaign donors are among the most hated corporate entities of the left. And, she is part of a worn out political dynasty that has been plagued with corruption and scandals for decades. Yet, you still want her to be your president. Why? Just because of her anatomy? How will Hillary’s Obama-like policies prevent even more homelessness, poverty and stress for all but the elite doner-class? Entitlement-dependent voters need to understand that the well will run dry without adequate productivity in the US.

structos: I am glad to see I am not the only one who questions the status quo. It’s easy for people to not see the severe structural cracks in the economy when their source of income is a government check. It’s sort of like partying on the upper decks of the Titanic while the engine room crew and steerage class is drowning bellow. For the oblivious, everything is just fine until suddenly it’s not. How many times do humans have to experience this stuff before they learn to avoid the proverbial icebergs of greed and debt?

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[JoB]

sometimes all you can do is shake your head..

that deficit thing.. look it up. it went up every time there was someone in the White House following your logic. it went down when the democrats were “giving away free things”.

and that’s not an opinion.. it’s fact…

if trickle down economics worked we wouldn’t be facing the kinds of destitution that are driving our homeless population.

“t’s easy for people to not see the severe structural cracks in the economy when their source of income is a government check.”

i don’t know how to break this to you Captain Dave.. but most of the readers of the West Seattle Blog actually work for a living… including the person that structos accuses of sitting in her rocking chair collecting her gubbmit check… a check that after a lifetime of work doesn’t cover the rent.. she is well past retirement age, what most people would consider disabled.. and still working to cover her basic expenses.

that’s not what anyone would think of as entitlement.

when you want to make one point the homeless are all drug addicts, drunks and criminals. When you want to make another they are destitute homeless. Either was they are just something to make a point with .. not people who are struggling to survive.

the personal nastiness delivered as an excuse for a total lack of compassion for others is often more than i can stomach.

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[JoB]

structos..

when people retire either because they have worked for a lifetime or because they are disabled or both they have more time to think and write.

you’ll get your turn. I hope it’s because you have completed your working career and not because you become disabled… that’s a hard road for anyone but it’s awfully difficult to find compassion for yourself when you couldn’t find it for others.

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[Talaki34]

Only one person came here to discuss possible solutions to this ongoing problem. Unfortunately, he/she was summarily dismissed for the more inviting opportunity to send forth rancor.
_____
As always, this post is nothing more than individuals giving their normal rhetoric of, who’s party affiliation can I attack today and how can I vent my dissatisfaction with government.
You are a microcosm of what is wrong today in this country. If you spent the any of the energy you devote to trash talking each other and instead put that vigor into asking questions/seeking knowledge, we as a community might just do what the country is failing to do.
You have an opportunity through this forum to discuss and develop ideas that can offer at least constructive insights and possibly some answers too many of the challenges we face. Instead, you choose bitterness, hostility and the suppression of ideas.

Maybe the first and most profound question should be, “Why?”

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[JTB]

Talaki34. Good points. The simple answer to your question, “Why” is because this forum mirrors what has come to pass for political debate in this country in which rhetorical devices pass for critical thinking. While there is a fair amount of snide commentary within some of the comments, there has also been a clear amount of factual correction and attempts to return to a discussion of the original issue. However, some people are more adept at obfuscation than others and it’s difficult to determine when to ignore erroneous information or deflections and when to address them. Yes, it can become a rabbit hole as indicated in the most recent series of exchanges.

But I believe in a community setting that it’s worth the time to try and separate facts from opinion as that affords the best opportunity for people to gain some insight into both elements.

As I’m sure you know, people ultimately come to opinions based on emotional drivers, not critical analysis. So it’s not surprising some of these discussion become unwieldy. We also know some people simply have different world views and will regard the same facts in entirely different ways. That’s why I sometimes think it’s worth understanding what the motivation is for someone as much as whether or not their facts and opinions are well-grounded.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by JTB.

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[JanS]

structos…hahahahahahaha..”loony liberal vitriol”…as opposed to the loony GOP vitriol…yep, yep, yep. Someday you will be pushing 70 years old, and I assume that you are going to turn down the Social Security that you paid into your entire working life. Yes…that’s how it works, my friends…you effing work, and pay into it, and then you get to take back. But I’m sure you won’t do that, as you would never take from the gubmint. Or, let’s say you lose your job, and apply for unemployment. Oh, that’s right, you will just live off your friends, because you won’t take a gubmint check….right? Or, heaven forbid, you acquire a disability….you’re not going to apply for disability so you can pay rent, bills, pay for food? Again…are you simply going to move in and live off of your family and friends? Maybe couch surf? Or are you going to go live in a tent somewhere in the city when you become homeless, because you certainly, with your beliefs, aren’t going to go to gubmint housing…no, not you…you ain’t no moocher, thinking you’re entitled. (by the way, that’s not what “entitlement” means…but you’re smart, you already knew that, didn’t you?) I will be 70 on my next birthday, and I still work at a physical job to supplement my SS, that barely pays my rent. Come walk in my shoes, you fine upstanding citizen…I’m betting you can’t do it. Do I feel entitled? Not on your damned life, you moron…I’m lucky to have a roof over my head, and still be alive. You? the space you’re standing on seems to be wasted…you don’t have an effing clue !!!

Done here !

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by JanS.

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[captainDave]

JoB: Go out and try to start a business with employees in Seattle and then tell me about how Reagan’s trickle-down economics is to blame. As an independent entrepreneur, I was able to cause many people to be employed in Seattle for over a decade after Reagan left office. Now, the regulatory barriers are too great for people like me to generate jobs. It is not a coincidence that thousands are now living in the streets.

JTB: Perhaps this thread was meant to be a political advertisement rather than a discussion? If so, JoB should have taken out an ad instead of posting in a forum for public discussion. Please refer to the forum rules.

As a discussion, a legitimate counter argument is: “Let’s NOT get behind big government spending solutions for programs that work to combat homelessness because they obviously don’t work.” The $300,000,000 million the Democrats want to take from taxpayers to fund ineffective programs will likely put more people in the street.

Talaki34: If you read through the posts, you will see that I am the only one to offer alternative ideas for reducing the homeless problem here in Seattle without stealing $300,00,000 million from taxpayers. Yet, not one word of discussion about it. Why? I think it is because certain people here have a specific political agenda to promote a pro socialist narrative that is not open for discussion. They simply want to get public buy-in for more irresponsible government spending–as you can see, people who oppose this are not welcome here.

JanS: Few conservatives are advocating the elimination of care for people who need it. That is an essential element of a civil society. The biggest issue is that you can’t kill the golden goose and expect a continuance of your golden eggs. The City of Seattle needs to get back to embracing free-market capitalism or else social problems like homelessness, youth unemployment, and depression will continue to persist.

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[Talaki34]

JTB,

I understand the impact life experience brings to the discussion; the facts of one might not be the facts for someone else. And you are right; it is hard to always take the emotion out of the cookpot. However, that’s not generally what happens in these forums. People don’t bring passion, they bring intolerance.

I agree with you that knowing a bit about what is motivating a person’s views can make things a little easier, but that too can be a very slippery slope. Unless the people involved in the discussions are open-minded to new ideas how do they decide (Critically) if someone’s opinions are well grounded. They cannot. It takes effort and a willingness to step outside of one’s comfort zone to try to understand an opposing view. Let me add that many people do not wish to share the intimacies of their lives just to qualify an opinion to a bunch of strangers.

Something that just popped into my head…

My father used to tell me that nobody ever learned anything by doing the talking and you can usually find answers to difficult questions if you are willing to sit quietly and listen.

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[JTB]

Talaki34, I don’t expect people to share a lot of detail about their personal lives on the Forum although many choose to offer enough to provide some context for their comments and opinions. JoB is possibly the most open and forthright person on the forum in divulging personal experience that inform most, if not all, of her opinions. CaptainDave has presented information about his struggle with the City bureaucracy which I find helpful in understanding some of his rather absolute condemnation of anything connected with Seattle local government and even the target communities served by various programs.

What I originally intended was that by asking people about the rationale for the positions they advocate and patiently sorting through the details, it is often possible to get to the underlying drivers. For example, it inevitably becomes clear that many of the gun rights people who engage in active debate on the issue are motivated by fear—mostly fear of being vulnerable to physical threat either by criminals or the government. Discussions about public safety and other practical details really don’t matter to someone who has bought into the notion that a firearm makes them safer. It’s like discussing whether or not American Sniper reveals that gun culture is ultimately dehumanizing and destructive. Some can see it, others can’t.

I guess my point is that apart from dispelling out and out falsehoods or magical thinking, once you have a sense of where someone is coming from, there often comes a point when it’s simply pointless to keep pulling on the daisy chain.

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[JKB]

The condescension level in this thread’s gotten pretty high…

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[Talaki34]

LOL! I am not sure how your thoughts on gun control came into the conversation and even less sure about the critique of American Sniper. It does establish for me, while your postings may be more eloquent and controlled then some of the others; you have already decided what is true for you and unfortunately for others as well. Sadly, this forced truth does make it impossible to discuss anything, but you know that.

“simply pointless to keep pulling on the daisy chain.”

Thank you for taking the time to respond civilly, I hope you have a nice evening,

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by Talaki34.

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[captainDave]

JTB: What does “gun rights people” have to do with anything here other than your own derogatory characterization of those who don’t agree with you? Can’t people just be concerned about where the $300,000,000 is coming from and whether or not such spending will actually produce quantifiable results? Tell your friend Sharon to put it on the ballet and let the voters decide if they want to deplete the state emergency fund so people can suffer in the next natural disaster.

Using state emergency funds for a problem that was largely created by poor public policy (not earthquakes, floods or windstorms) seems ludicrous when it would be more prudent to simply reverse the policies that contribute to rising homelessness–like excessive employment restrictions and reduced ability for the free-market to produce affordable housing.

I think a lot of voters might be asking if this is just another Democrat strategy to buy votes again with public funds for freebies.

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[Talaki34]

captainDave,

Remember fairness in all things. The gun control comments were part of a conversation more between JKB and myself. Not really open for public comment even when viewed in forum content.

I do understand your frustration at how things are being handled, but this is less a democrat vs republican or if your prefer liberal vs. conservative issue. You will always have those that operate purely by self-interest, but there are many more people on both sides who are trying to do what they believe is “the right thing.”

Lots of deep breaths and think constructive suggestions and commentary. Hope you have a great night too.

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[JTB]

I was attempting to provide some thoughts and example of how emotions often underlie opinions on political topics often to the exclusion of discussion and analysis and quite often making it difficult to examine the same information in a critical way. Being a movie fan, I’m fascinated by the work of Clint Eastwood as a director which to my thinking systematically exposes the destructive nature of America’s fascination with gun culture (including the Old West mythos). But others see some of the same material, American Sniper for example, as honoring that theme. I would hardly say I’m “right” about my view as much as think there is something worth considering. BUt I’ve talked with folks who think I’m out and out whacko to even consider it might be part of Eastwood’s intent and prefer instead to insist that the movie was entirely about what a great hero Chris Kyle was.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by JTB.

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[JKB]

One theme I’ve been noticing is where people strongly believe what something means. It’s awkward when one group is quite certain they know that it means X, and a different group thinks it means Y. If nothing else, it tangles communication between the groups.

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[JoB]

after reading today’s posts i had to go back to see how what i posted could be construed as “political”. Wouldn’t you know.. a democrat is the one who offered a solution for funding.

i am tired and sick tonight so you get it without any punches pulled.

While you expletive deleted sit here and whine because you think someone is getting something you aren’t.. children are sleeping on our streets.

while you expletive deleted sit here and whine because you think this is all political someone’s grandmother or grandfather is hoping they make it through the night because they don’t have a safe place to sleep.

while you expletive deleted sit here and whine about all of that gubbmit money that is literally flying out the doors.. a vet who needs it isn’t getting medical care and doesn’t have a safe warm place to sleep tonight.

because you don’t care enough to do anything more than talk trash about people you don’t know.. someone will die.

this year alone i have lost too many friends. By the time they finally get sick enough to be “handed” a safe place inside to sleep it is literally too late.

i am sorry JKB for speaking out so strongly… but there is no question that being homeless means you don’t have a clean safe place to sleep or fix yourself healthy food or bathe or secure your belongings or to lay your head when you get sick.

The real wonder is that more homeless people aren’t addicted to alcohol or drugs… because frankly that would make it a whole lot easier to live that life.

it’s bad enough to find yourself homeless. it’s worse to have those who should be offering you a helping hand spitting on you.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by JoB.

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[JKB]

JoB, I think you meant your rant for JTB. We are not the same person.
— JKB

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[structos]

Lol! this is such an entertaining blog, spinning sideways like a top! Just curious JanS, if you are nearly 70 years old and having to still work to barely make ends meet, how the hell can you afford internet service to even be able to post here? Some free government supported senior program? maybe we could take the money being wasted on that program and put it towards the homelessness issue you want to solve. Better yet, cancel your internet service you are paying for monthly as a luxury and donate the money to your church and they can use to support their homeless outreach program?

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[captainDave]

JoB: You are absolutely right about the need to solve the homeless issue in Seattle. It is absolutely deplorable that we have so many people living in the street. But we need solutions that will work rather than make the situation worse. The problem is that whenever the government gets involved with massive promotions for free stuff, lots of marginal people suddenly appear. The real needy are drowned out by the opportunists. $300,000,000 million will likely invite a lot of opportunists.

Like Trump says, we need to take care of our vets. We need to take care of the elderly, and we need to take care of people who legitimately cannot take care of themselves. Everyone else should be given opportunities to work through fostering a diverse and robust economy that invites the kind of creative entrepreneurialism that made this country great decades ago. To do this, we need to reduce employment barriers and encourage private sector affordable housing to be developed by local independents so the lowest per unit housing cost can be achieved. This way, taxpayer funded assistance can be much more meaningful where it is needed most.

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