Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Is Seattle Racist???
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June 25, 2008 at 7:58 am #628426
ShibaguyzMemberLast thought during this thread jack: I have personally benefitted GREATLY from those evil people who use naturopathic and holistic medical practices as has my partner. Close friends and family members have benefited from such medical treatments with everything from allergies to terminal illnesses.
Pulling the thread back on track, any time you generalize and make statements that apply to an entire set of people, you are treading on thin ice. Whether we are talking about the color of skin, professions, where we live, how we vote or who we love, it is generally not a generally good idea to generalize… in general… *ahem* Maybe it’s just getting late…
June 25, 2008 at 11:33 am #628427
KayleighMemberShibaguyz, why don’t you actually read what I wrote? I was speaking about a certain type of person who employs that stuff. I don’t care how many people tell me they “benefited” from it; I think it’s 95% snake oil and the research will back me up, but that’s not the point of my post.
(sorry for the threadjack)
June 25, 2008 at 11:50 am #628428
soclwrkrinmotnMemberAgain, I am a supporter of natural medicine…what I think the thread change was ORIGINALLY about was is the inherent attitude bias (that i am saying is classist) in the “my way or you’re wrong” attitude that Kayleigh has encountered in naturopaths.
On a side note, natural medicine has worked for me, but I will add that my grandmother knew more about herbs than any college trained naturopath, and I follow what she taught me.
God, why am I on this blog at this time?
June 25, 2008 at 12:11 pm #628429
KayleighMemberThanks, soc. It has an extra layer of irriation for me, personally, because I tell people straight up I am not interested in alternative medicine and yet they persist on trying to convince me, and I respond logically and with evidence.
Then they get mad, because they can’t really defend it much other than to say, “it works for me”. Which holds no value for me; I believe in science, not personal anecdotes.
But back to classism and smug-ism: I would seriously like to hear what people think about this. I think it’s pervasive in America, despite our insistince in our supposed meritocracy– that anybody can be rich if they just try hard enough, etc. If “anybody” could move up class-wise, then why would we judge people who haven’t?
June 25, 2008 at 12:18 pm #628430
soclwrkrinmotnMemberThe Horatio Alger crap! *jumps up and down*
Seriously, I have a lot to say on this one, but I gotta finish my paper first. Give me a few hours and I will be back. This ties into the “owning a home” thread, too.
June 25, 2008 at 1:01 pm #628431
charlabobParticipantSoc, you’re right — it does tie in with home ownership and all the other “values” we’ve bought into as a society.
That’s why I see nothing at all wrong with threadjacking. The forums follow the logical progression of a group of minds through a topic. They’re not a meeting or a powerpoint(tm) presentation.
Jacked threads are much more vibrant and interesting than linear discussion of a single topic. I hereby declare amnesty for all threadjackers, starting with me :-)
June 25, 2008 at 2:45 pm #628432
soclwrkrinmotnMemberWe all threadjack–including you, NR, so ease off–and I agree that is a more vibrant, and more representative of a realtime conversation than a linear discussion.
Now, my thoughts on “smugism”…I think Kayleigh defined it really well: the idea that if you can’t rise (a concept in and of itself that annoys me) and get a piece of the pie, it’s your fault. Part of the class divide is this attitude: a lot of working class and working poor don’t know what resources are out there, it’s intimidating and difficult to get access to the resources, and half the time the people in charge of the resources make us feel stupid. It isn’t only financial advice for homeownership. It’s getting a college degree, access to medical care, buying a car…
Then there’s debt. Do you how many kids leaving the system receive credit card offers? Those us who left intergenerational poverty are generally saddled with a lot of debt: student loans, credit cards, etc…and usually at a higher rate cuz we have no cosigner, a higher than usual debt load and a lower income. Believe me, debt is a soul killer…and makes future planning difficult.
Of course, some folks will say “they’re stupid. How could they not find another way?” The fact is, the other ways are learned by time and “the hard way” and by then, they are cleaning up the mess.
The class issues also derail social change. Working class and working poor and poor folks distrust those with money, and those middle-class folk who have the best intent at heart talk and do things to disempower the working classes. Most institutions and agencies that have the aim of helping poor folk are organized with a middle class mindset and hierarchy and are as intimidating as h***.
So full circle: why does smugism fall into classism? Because it simply states, “You can’t do a, b, or c only because you are too lazy/stupid because the resources are out there to help you.” It’s a lot more complicated than that…and also it assumes that a certain set of values should be universal.
Yep. Words have become my defense.
June 25, 2008 at 3:02 pm #628433
KayleighMemberAgree, soc.
My ex has a working class background; mine is middle class. He thought I was a spoiled twit at times, and I was sometimes surprised and frustrated at the stuff he didn’t know. (He is still one of the best guys I know; this is not an insult.)
Class is culture, I think, to a large extent. I grew up watching baseball but not football, so to this day, football looks blue collar to me and I just don’t get it. (Like, what’s with the beer swilling and violence?) No way could my parents have afforded an Ivy League education, but they did pay my way through university. So I was luckier than my ex but not as fortunate as an upper class kid.
I think most corporate America is shaped by white male middle/upper class American culture (competitive, driven, etc.) So if you are born into that culture, you have an advantage over someone who wasn’t.
Forgive me if ANY of the above sounds classist as I work very hard to get rid of my biases. But it’s good to be able to talk about it honestly.
June 25, 2008 at 3:13 pm #628434
soclwrkrinmotnMemberOh, certainly class is culture…or a part of it. It shapes values, beliefs and attitudes.
Again, we all have biases, and the only way to address it–and to become anti-classist or anti-racist–is to talk about it, and admit our biases. And d*** straight, corporate America is shaped by the white, male, upper-middle class culture.
I have some internalized crap around both class and race…for example, I write better than I speak, as I often mispronounce words (I have read them, and know what they mean, but didn’t grow up hearing them), and usually feel pretty stupid when I have to speak to large groups. Seattle has been somewhat hard for me in that regard, as I have been embarrassed under the guise of “helping.”
June 25, 2008 at 3:26 pm #628435
charlabobParticipantI have, as you might imagine :-), a lot to say about class-ism and smug-ism; I’ll write tonight.
Meantime, off the top of my head, smug = how I look at the world; class = how the world looks at me.
The most interesting thing to me about the middle class is how many people think they’re in it, when they were priced out long ago. That’s why conservatives have been able to con poor white folks into thinking poor folks of color are their enemies. And, until this election, the worst thing Repugs could think of to say about liberals was that we were proposing class warfare. D*** straight! It appears that dog is no longer hunting.
More later — and thanks for joining me in defending threadjacking, soc. All I can say is anyone devoted to linear (monothreaded) expression should never meet me in person. I’m much worse.
June 25, 2008 at 4:41 pm #628436
WSMomParticipantI think today many people are more “classist” than “racist”. It’s natural to befriend people who share like interests and backgrounds, and since most of us rarely leave our neighborhoods (see this study: http://www.barabasilab.com/) we end up hanging with folks whose paths we cross regularly. When my daughter was five we were shopping up on Roxbury, she looked around then said “Mom, why are all our friends pink like me?” It may have been the first time she noticed that there were lots of shades of browns mixed in with the pinks. I must admit I felt really chagrined at that moment and wondered what I could do differently to have a more colorful circle of friends. Now that my children are older, they have befriended kids of all colors and nationalities, which has allowed me to widen my circle and enrich my life. I believe our next generation of children may be more colorblind, yet still classist. I think only through greater investment in early childhood education will classism ever be eliminated from our society.
June 25, 2008 at 4:49 pm #628437
beachdrivegirlParticipantCharlabob… I think you defined it quite well with the “smug=how i see the world and class= how the world sees me” the best simple definition I have ever heard. And soc, we must be opposites I cant write worth a d***. but feel very comfortable speaking in front of people. Just grammer and spellng are two of my biggest weaknesses ( i am sure many of you have been witness to that through my posts. :) ) WSMom. I think your post also is very accurate. And great point bringing up admitting your faults to whomever said that… i know my biggest fault is probably stubborness (everyone should think just like me right) I still need to figure out where my other ones are but you all def. have me thinking.
June 25, 2008 at 5:09 pm #628438
soclwrkrinmotnMemberWSMom…I think you are right about classism being a bigger issue. Whether it is a bigger issue or no, it certainly is a more fundamental problem.
For example, wealthy gated communities in which the better off reside, no longer exclude residents on the basis of race. But, they discriminate intensely on the basis of financial status, which mirrors racist selectivity in some areas of the country, but, race is not the operative selective criteria. No “minority” family would be denied access to a wealthy gated community if they have the resources to outbid others for the residence. (However, depending on where they live, that family might find the residence “already sold.”)
As many as 96,000 people die in American hospitals each year as a direct result of medical malpractice. Many times that number receive the wrong procedure, medication, or diagnosis resulting in a worsening of their malady or, the creation of a new one they didn’t walk in with. There are many factors involved in why this occurs. But, chief among them is the hours medical practitioners put in. Some residents routinely put in 36 hours at a time. That last 12 hours results in their working on patients with the same attention and judgment skills as a .10 % blood alcohol content. They aren’t permitted to operate a vehicle in that state, but, they are permitted to operate on a patient in that state. In contrast, wealthy clients go to wealthy practitioners who don’t need to work 24 or 36 hour shifts. Wealthy clients also have the resources to sue for malpractice and so, are treated with greater care and concern on average. “Public Citizen” has a lot of information on this health care class issue, just type health care in their search box.)
Wealthy persons have greater access to government. Whether that wealth is derived from union memberships, or personal entrepreneurial luck and acumen, folks of the upper classes have access to Congresspersons and the White House which those in lesser classes do not. Therefore, as we have seen, when it comes to issues like tax policy, the wealthy have been able to use their affluent influence to shape tax policy which favors them far more on a per capita basis in their class, than those of lesser affluence.
Many Republicans and Democrats tout that equal opportunity is all that should be afforded. What people do with that opportunity is up to them.
Many poor work just as hard, and just as long hours as the wealthy. (And in fact, longer) This is the fact that stands in the way of any easy solution to wealth distribution in America.
A woman working as assistant manager at Wal-Mart makes approximately $24,000 per year, but her work day is not over when she leaves Wal-Mart. She must then come home, make dinner, tend the kids, supervise clean up, do the laundry, balance the check book, pay the bills, schedule appointments for the kid’s doctors, after school events, and weekend sleepovers, before she lies down to try to get 6 to 7 hours sleep before rising to get the kids off to school. She works just as hard and as many hours as a $5 mil. a year stock broker, who probably has a staff to help him or her with all the other caregiving things.
Is it fair and just that she should have to do without health insurance, tutors for her kids when needed, access to a reliable car for transportation, a home of her own, and preventive medical checkups even though she works a full time job?
This is the question that underlies the growing debate over class discrimination in America. And it is not a debate that is going away. More research supports debated intuitions of the past, that the poor suffer far more in terms of longevity, health condition, class rise for their children, and in limited opportunities than those born into the upper middle or higher classes.
Then racism is used as the “divide and conquer” tactic…i.e. blaming immigrant labor, the jobs being sent overseas and across the border (where the employees are being treated brutally…and the $$ lines the stockholder’s pockets)
In short, the system operates as though the oppressive distortions are reality (you’re lazy if you can’t get ahead, or that guy over there took your job and it is his fault) instead of the bulls*** it is.
Institutional and structural oppression is prejudice is supported by the systems in a society to the point that it becomes the societal canon, or the “way it is.”
Classism is the oil that greases all those wheels.
Ay, estoy encabronado.
June 25, 2008 at 5:45 pm #628439
KayleighMemberThese are great posts!
I wonder if it’s human nature to find *somebody* to look down upon. I kid you not: I heard two homeless people on the bus dissing another homeless person who they felt was somehow beneath them. There are social layers everywhere, I guess.
Maybe it’s one of those general human tendencies we all battle to one degree or another, like greed or selfishness or laziness…
I think the wealthy (non-inherited wealthy) tend to take more risks and assume more responsibility, but I totally agree they don’t work “harder.”
And let me just say how much easier it is $$-wise, many times, when you have a spouse!
June 25, 2008 at 6:16 pm #628440
soclwrkrinmotnMemberUh-oh…you don’t want me to get going on a rant about sexism, heterosexism and cisgenderism…the right to marry only being a microcosm of the whole thing…
*grins wickedly and kicks the soapbox to someone else*
June 25, 2008 at 6:22 pm #628441
ShibaguyzMemberFirst of all Kayleigh – don’t be so dismissive of my post. Of course I read your post. Of course I understand what you are saying. Don’t dismiss the point I am making by saying that I didn’t even read your post. We can start another thread where you can post your feelings at length about natural medicines and then post your scientific evidence pro and con. Then you won’t have to listen to my anecdotal evidence. Happy?
Soc – interesting, well thought out post. Now… what’s the answer? How do we restructure an entire society/economic system to that working mom has the same commensurate pay as the stock brocker?
I agree that “race” as a whole is a societal construct since, it can be argued (quite convincingly), that there is no such thing as “race.” Therefore, race is not really a valid basis for any argument. However, bring up the race card or the gay card in a political campaign and you’ve just hit the mother lode of campaign contributions! These are issues that are easy to talk about it in both vague or overblown language depending on your agenda. And I’m not talking dem/repub, lib/conser here… it falls on both party lines.
It is easy to scare people into drawing lines by making general statements that are difficult to pin down to one arguing point. It is also easy to throw around what sound like convincing arguments about how a certain sector of the population lives if the people you are talking to aren’t likely to know much about those other folks or will ever run into them.
This is, I believe, the basis for “race” or class-ism in our particular case: the constructs that have been given to us by our political system that has found its primary money maker to be our fear of the unknown.
I had a sociology professor at Seattle Central years ago who really opened my eyes to such issues and really made me rethink the way I was looking at the world based on where my viewpoint were coming from and what constructs they were based.
So, again Soc, what’s the answer? How do we stop this? We can talk about it all day but, until we come up with some solutions, we’re just bitching. And, the cool thing about a forum like this is, we don’t HAVE TO AGREE on one solution!! We can all have different ways we can deal with this then go out and make those actions take hold.
Thank you for posting intelligent, well thought out questions and responses, Soc.
June 25, 2008 at 6:57 pm #628442
AnonymousInactiveThis thread is great.
I love the honest thoughts being shared. I wish i had more time to go through and really read everything and add my own thoughts, but I have a friend in from out of town.
I will come back to this thread later!
Btw – I was kinda kidding with the whole “threadjacking” thing. Of course I threadjack, I’m a little notorious for it, that’s why I thought it would be funny!
Anyways….. carry on! I think this is great discussion!
June 25, 2008 at 7:29 pm #628443
soclwrkrinmotnMemberShibaguyz…I agree. But the answer is as complicated as the problem. Talking about it is a start…because we need to make it an apparent problem, instead of something unspoken, unacknowledged, but felt.
One thing that would work is to begin collective organizing, and work on addressing all “isms”…even if it is outside of our comfort zone.
There are some really models of organizations who “act locally” and affect globally. That’s what we need to do…but we also have to work and address our own internalized crap, and then work outwards. And sometimes, we’ll need to step back (as allies) and let that particular group being challenged step forward and speak. (Thus the need, sometimes, for a safe space.)
As for race, it is definitely an “imaginary concept” (to quote Angela Davis), but the societal concepts have a realtime impact on all of us…most of the “isms” are societal contructions…as was already pointed out by Shibaguyz.
June 25, 2008 at 7:43 pm #628444
KayleighMemberShibaguyz, if you understood my post, why did you imply that I said naturopaths or the people who use them were evil? I didn’t say that and don’t think that. Jeez, I tried to be very careful how I posted it.
What exactly is the problem?
June 25, 2008 at 7:51 pm #628445
AnonymousInactivekayleigh, I expressed many of your sentiments awhile back when *tapping therapy* was being discussed. Including the link to quackwatch. Got jumped all over for it. People who benefit from sugar pills (placebos), get very defensive. It is not a popular stance to challenge them.
I think I would have more respect for those who acknowledge that they *believe* they have benefited. As opposed to those who try to sell me the merits of said *sugar pill*. It’s still sugar, but if you feel better taking it, I’m happy for you.
June 25, 2008 at 7:59 pm #628446
KayleighMemberSorry, I missed your posts, JT. And thank you.
I have to file the Bastyrism under “don’t get it” in my head.
“Unpopular stances” is my middle name…;-)
June 25, 2008 at 8:02 pm #628447
JoBParticipantWhat an interesting thread…
when we moved here.. i found several places to rent that were affordable and met all of my criteria.. which is not easy when you have two dogs who have to have a secure backyard… in or near White Center.
My husband’s new co-workers and even my son counseled us against even considering them.. so since hubby was doing the looking, i never got the opportunity to even see them for myself.
upside.. i moved to West Seattle and discovered the West Seattle Blog.. without which my life would be infinitely smaller.
downside.. we pay more rent than the house we live in deserves… or than we can easily afford.
As i began to explore, i drove through White Center and vowed never to go anyplace near it again. I found all of the back routes around White Center and used them religiously.
Then, one day i got lost.. and found there was more to White Center than a couple of blocks of pawn and sex shops.
I am as not racist as it is possible to be in our culture, but i am very security conscious.. and on my first drive through White Center, i saw the derelict buildings and kids in gang colors. That was enough to tell me this was not someplace a middle aged woman who couldn’t move quickly out of trouble.. never mind defend herself.. ought to be. I made a snap judgement and it took getting lost and a couple of interesting stores to alter my perceptions.
I think our prejudice is often more about how something looks than how it actually is… for some reason we have been taught to equate affluence with safety. and that makes us all less safe.
I have been exploring neighborhoods lately.. we are likely to be moving at the end of summer and i hope to be able to make that move a fairly permanent one… White Center is one of the neighborhoods where i plan to look.
Partly that is about money… our money will go further there.. and if we buy.. stands to increase faster there… but it is about neighborhood too.
Someone said that they felt more comfortable in
White Center than in Bellevue. I can’t comment on that as i haven’t been in Bellevue since we moved here:) … but i suspect that is true of us as well.
I learned to cook in Minnesota because the small ethnic restaurants that surround us here weren’t available there… yet i find i will have to become a much better cook to take full advantage of what the groceries in white Center have to offer… and i think we will be a long time exploring the small restaurants…
it would be good to live where they were in walking distance… whether that is on the White Center or the West Seattle side of the line.
And i like the idea of patronizing businesses who choose to invest locally a lot…
who knows where we will end up:) For all i know i will find a place in the Admrinal junction area… it meets most of my criteria… or high point..or westwood… or… and we will stay firmly on this side of the divide…
but i won’t let a little thing like appearances keep me from looking across that invisible line any longer.
Classism is an ugly thing. i think how we want to be seen often affects our choices more than how we want to live.
June 25, 2008 at 8:08 pm #628448
AnonymousInactivekayleigh, it just makes you more interesting *unpopular stances*. You’re the liberal House, and I say that with respect. I enjoy both of your posts because they show self confidence and a life lived without concerning yourselves with every little thing people think of you.
June 25, 2008 at 8:24 pm #628449
KayleighMemberJT, you are kind, for real. Thank you for the compliment. :-)
One of my parents’ first observations of me as a baby was that I knew my own mind. This is sometimes a downfall and I actually feel cruddy if I hurt someone’s feelings or disrespect them.
I am hopefully more mature and diplomatic than I was at 25, though I have not reached your level on that. Let’s hope aging brings me more than just a slower metabolism and wrinkles…;-)
June 25, 2008 at 8:45 pm #628450
soclwrkrinmotnMemberJT and Kayleigh, on that note: if it doesn’t work for you, that’s fine. It does for others. I could say that I *believe* modern medicine and herbs both work for me. I think “science” falls short, too…and is just as expensive, and has as much “smugism” to it, sadly enough. I’ve been treated dismissively by both populations. And there are a lot of medicines that are plant derived. So?
What is “tapping”? Sorry, if I am clueless.
JoB…I don’t think I was the one that said that about Bellevue…but I sure feel that way. I try to talk Aim into going anywhere but there…and I just did a presentation at Bellevue Community College and what some of the students of color and the LGBTQ students told me–well, it reinforces that feeling. :(
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