I am her

[redblack]

i didn’t want to help the nutters hijack this thread, but i have to laugh at some of dave’s comments.

buddy, if you think the democratic party is on the ropes… well, go ahead and keep believing that.

you know what? keep up with the fossilized red scare b.s., too. every time you post your opinions about democrats, liberalism, and communism you create more antipathy toward conservatism.

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[captainDave]

redblack: Let’s deal with facts.

Is freedom around the world increasing or declining?

Here is a place to start: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2016

Has the democrat party gained or lost control in the US since 2010? I have provided my facts, now provide yours.

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[redblack]

the democratic party has lost support nationally because they have been behaving like republicans (in re: electioneering.) they’ve been doing that because they believe that the only way to defeat republicans is with money. the rank and file are hungry for something better and less republican-y.

and i think a lot of republicans are, too.

my facts? attendance at the 2016 precinct caucuses was off the charts. sanders brought most of that support. my sleepy little precinct went 5-1 for sanders. and that energy happened nationwide.

people are angry at the money controlling policies in the democratic party, but not so much that they won’t show up to affect party change at the local level.

what looks like disorganization and apathy to you is actually the party undergoing structural and generational changes.

if you think that the nation rejected liberal platforms out-of-hand, you’re mistaken. there is far more at play than simple us-versus-them.

but hey. let’s see how this “new” corporate government does its job, shall we? can republicans govern effectively? got any plans to reduce obama and boehner/mcconnell’s debt? big designs for iran and syria? heading off american class and race riots? and can they do it – all of it – by cutting the top marginal tax rate by 30%?

damn it. i didn’t want to do this in this thread.

i’ll give you the last word on the subject here, then we should agree to let the topic return to how women have been disenfranchised by clinton’s 2 million-vote margin of victory.

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[JoB]

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-his-supporters-and-the-persistence-the-reality-gap?cid=sm_fb_maddow

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[JoB]

redblack..
the Democrats lost because a divided house can not stand…
not because they had lost touch with any reality

Sanders laid the tracks for Trump’s election strategy
all he had to do was keep making the same claims that Sanders made to distinguish himself politically from Clinton… and throw in a heavy dose of disinformation that those who already didn’t “trust” her were inclined to believe.

add to that media who wouldn’t address the issues.. and you get a Trump victory.

i am guessing that doesn’t taste very good right now.. but there you go..

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[waynster]

Job toss in fake news stories on face book and other social media outlets a little hacking from a foreign government and some distraction tweets to cover up the real truth and stories… there you go….
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/politics/article/Facebook-fake-news-writer-I-think-Donald-Trump-10620681.php

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by waynster.

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[JoB]

i know i seem harsh.. and it would be all too easy to dismiss me as a case of sour grapes.. after all she was my candidate and her election did mean a lot to me… but… the reality is that i have lived in the world that it appears will once again be created as a consequence of this loss.. and it is not a world i even wanted to return to…

this is not politics as usual…

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[redblack]

it happened, jo, and i don’t believe it’s productive to continue with the circular firing squad.

what i’m going to do is work harder to pull the party back to its working-class roots. if the DNC puts up another corporate candidate, i’ll actively work against him/her.

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[Talaki34]

OMG! OMG! OMG!

Will you all just give it a “F” rest? We did it to ourselves. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. Left and Right, we have conspired to knock America to her knees by the relentless pursuit of our own agendas that had nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong.

Never do any of us on either side ever try to fix anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pages filled with insults and self-righteous “I am a better person than you” bullsh-t that does absolutely nothing but show that neither side gives a crap about anybody or anything other than himself or herself. The consistent venomous drivel that leaches like a cancer out of some of the pages on this forum is revolting.

ALLLLLLLL of US are to blame for EVERYTHING that is going on in America. We let the extremists in all parties take over the moment we stopped listening and decided that meeting each other (Compromise) was selling out.

It is now time to “Pay the Piper.” Welcome to the new America we all created and all the consequences that go along with it.

You want lasting constructive change, then start listening to each other.

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[anonyme]

Thanks, Talaki. I agree with you. I thought about starting a discussion that would open up views from both sides, especially reasonable conservatives and those of us who don’t ‘fit’ on either side. But I think we know how that would turn out.

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[TanDL]

Sorry guys… I’m not going to “let it go” in any sense of the word, I’m OK with Jo continuing the verbal firing squads and I will NOT be part of the blame sharing. I saw the out-of-control train coming and did everything this one little citizen could think of to stop it. I am not part of the “big bucks” class and don’t have a lick of political power but will tell you one thing I firmly see and believe right now: This election was NOT won fair and square, as evidenced by the latest reporting by our intelligence agencies. A foreign government had influence here and this troubles me more than anything, except for the fact that it was all kept quiet until after the election, except for Senator Feinstein who was poo-poo’d and ignored. And now the Exon guy is being considered for Secretary of State who did major business with Russia and has medals of friendship from Putin himself? Move on people, nothing to see here? I don’t think so!!

A recount is called for in some states because of concern about the chances of tampering in our election and Trump sends in attorneys to stop it? REALLY? A patriot concerned about his country would say something like: Sure, go ahead. It’s important that we have faith in our election system and I support any effort to prove to the American people that our system is sound. But noooo… this President-elect has to fight it tooth and nail. Something smells here… smells real bad and I will not personally move on until the rot is exposed.

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[waynster]

here we go again …..
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/10/politics/donald-trump-response-russian-hacking/index.html

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[captainDave]

TanDL: I would agree about wanting to get to the bottom of any alleged vote tampering if there is actual evidence to warrant it. However, the issue with Russia is about exposing nefarious activities of Clinton and her campaign that were being swept under the rug by the mainstream media–The same media that was intricately investigating every nuance of Trump’s life. With Hillary’s aggressive threats (inevitably nuclear), its not a mystery why Russia didn’t want her in office. Personally, I don’t care if it was Hannibal Lecter who exposed Clinton’s embarrassing little secrets. It actually should have been the mainstream media’s responsibility to dig up these facts in the spirit of nonpartisan coverage.

With that said, why don’t liberals want an audit and removal of votes from any of the 11.4 million illegal aliens Obama’s DHS estimates are in the US? While 75% have stolen IDs and easy access to voting, liberals claim that there is no evidence that any of them voted. Illegal Hillary votes seem far more likely than individually hacked voting machines that have no network access.

waynster: HA HA. You guys are being played by the liberal lemming masters at CNN and MSNBC. When are you going to learn to start questioning this crap? These stories are just as funny as the cartoons you post.

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[TanDL]

Well, if you read the CIA reporting, it says that both the GOP and Dems were hacked, but only Dem material was released. I would certainly believe what our intelligence agencies reveal before I would believe anything Trump says. And now he’s railing against the CIA, because he knows everything better than they do? He’s a train wreck coming at us full speed. So I gather from your statements you don’t have a problem with a foreign country meddling in our elections, as long as it supports your candidate? Heaven help us all.

Do you really think 11.4 million illegal aliens are voting? Seriously? You have to register to vote and to register you have to have state issued ID and proof of residency. So 11 million illegals risk their lives to come here in order to sneak into our elections cause they are just dying to vote here? Laughable. They come here to make money and most of them try to quietly fly under the radar so as not to get caught. Not to mention if 11 million illegal immigrants WERE voting, do you honestly think Trump would have won?

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[captainDave]

TanDL: I would prefer that our own media do the “meddling” in the elections on a nonpartisan basis so that we don’t have to wait for other countries to do it. The press already exposed everything on the GOP side. There was apparently nothing new to release. Spy vs. Spy– we do it to them too.

I didn’t say all 11.4 million illegals voted. That would be ridiculous. However, a ss number is required to work and pay taxes so most illegal immigrants have one acquired illegally. Here is an article from ten years ago. This is not a new problem and it’s even worse today:

“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/americas/04iht-id.2688618.html”

There is absolutely no problem for working illegal aliens to vote in states like California. With so much at stake, why do you think none would vote to have a chance of being granted free citizenship by Hillary?

To answer your last question: No, I don’t believe Trump would have had a snowball’s chance in hell if citizens of third word countries were allowed to elect our president. They have nothing to loose by voting for open borders and free stuff.

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[TanDL]

“The press already exposed everything on the GOP side. There was apparently nothing new to release.” Geez… do you have any evidence of that? I say we investigate to find out.

Why would you cite California as a place where it’s easy for illegals to vote. Do they not register voters there? Why not cite Texas or Arizona or New Mexico? Why not Washington, with a high count of Asian illegals? Why not all the states that border Canada? Why not Florida? Bet there’s a bunch of illegal Cubans down there. And yes, I understand that employers are required to get ss numbers from their hires and surely you understand that not all employers are ethical and honest in following rules. I’ve even heard of some small employers in this area who pay under the table so you know they aren’t collecting ID info, so to convince me that illegals are voting in droves, will require some evidence. If we allow recounts, then maybe we can eliminate all that. Problem solved. But your candidate can’t have that… Lord knows why he’s so afraid of that.

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[captainDave]

TanDL: Absolutely. I want a press that will be good journalists and expose everything without bias. That’s what “News” is suppose to be about.

I mentioned California because it has the highest population of illegal aliens (2.8 million in 2012). Here is the DHS report:

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/Unauthorized%20Immigrant%20Population%20Estimates%20in%20the%20US%20January%202012.pdf

Why I think some of them voted is because they already have stolen IDs for work:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-levin/irs-stop-letting-taxpayer_b_9844642.html

There is no shortage of SS numbers to use (live or unrecorded dead). For example, Here is a government report showing that 6.5 million social security numbers are still eligible for voting by persons who would be over 112 years of age:

http://oig.ssa.gov/sites/default/files/audit/full/pdf/A-06-14-34030_0.pdf

112 was used to because “only 35 living individuals worldwide had reached that age as of October 2013, according to the Gerontology Research Group”. There are countless active ss numbers of dead people under 112. The fake ID market is huge and easily accessible in hispanic communities.

Registering to vote is a piece of cake compared to all the other things illegals do with stolen IDs.

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[TanDL]

OK.. so you think millions of illegals might be voting, but not 11 million. Still, your guy won so I’m not understanding what your concern might be. And the fact that lots of ssn numbers are eligible to vote doesn’t mean they actually voted. My dad died a few years ago and he stayed on the voter rolls for an election, cause the state he lived in was slow in removing numbers belonging to recently deceased people. No one took his ssn and voted in his place. I don’t think the evidence is there that millions of illegals vote and you don’t believe our Intelligence Services have enough evidence to prove that the Russians meddled in our elections to choose a specific candidate. So let’s recount, investigate and get to the bottom of it all. I’m not afraid of any investigations that will lead Americans to trust their election system. Wonder why Donald is…

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[JoB]

there is however evidence that detroit can’t be recounted … and it stands to reason that “malfunctioning” counting machines in the area most likely to vote democratic might actually impact the vote totals in Michigan.

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[JoB]

redblack..
what you see as a firing squad i see as following the pied piper further down the hole.
What happened in this election is not ok…
waiting out the disaster of a Trump presidency for the next round of politics as a blood sport is not ok… not even if it gives Bernie time to build his constituency.
No matter what anyone thought would be ideologically better… Trump was simply too high a price to pay.
To me this election is everything that fails in Seattle perfection.. if we can’t have it all we will have nothing… even as we sit in total gridlock… even as people die on our streets because they don’t have shelter.. even as…

when will we learn?

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[redblack]

what i’m saying is that we can keep blaming each other or we can fix it. it’s that simple.

i agree that it’s important to understand how we got here. but blaming each other isn’t productive. instead of a circular firing squad, we need to all be facing the same direction. and i think we can get some of those blue collar white dudes who voted for trump to come on board.

for the record, i don’t want sanders to run again. i want to see some new faces and hear new ideas. entrenched old guard democratic politicians (like chuck schumer) need to listen to what the people are telling them or get out of the way.

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[JanS]

redblack – one of the things that strikes me is…we in the Dem party are sorely lacking in young people. For instance, I got an invite from this group to their Christmas soiree(had never heard of them, so don’t know why ). Check out the median age of these people. Old Guard….and if I joined I’d be there right with them – lol…this party can’t survive like this, and infighting will add to that…

https://www.facebook.com/metrodems

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[JoB]

one of the demographic groups that voted consistently for Hillary was the under 40 crowd..
both men and women.
another was people of color..

and it’s not as though Hillary wasn’t offering American workers a great deal…
so tell me again why we should be chasing the vote of the smallest demographic group?

i think it’s poor strategy.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by JoB.

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[redblack]

jo: i’m in that “smallest demographic group.” i work with guys who voted for trump. union guys.

i know, right?!

you have to trust me when i say that democrats need to galvanize the working class vote. all else will follow.

don’t get me wrong; union leadership is currently on board with whatever the DNC leadership espouses. the rank and file, however, are not convinced that dems are any better than republicans when it comes to economic issues. and while they aren’t always the most politically savvy, blue collar people are not amused by what’s been going on since the clinton administration.

this is a systemic problem, but it’s easy to fix:

get the corporate money OUT of the debate.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 4 months ago by redblack.

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[redblack]

jan: please don’t misunderstand: i’m not ageist. i just want baby boomers to embrace new party leadership that is anti-oligarchy.

sometimes i think my parents are more liberal than i am. they’re stuck deep behind enemy lines – in the gerrymandered suburbs of indianapolis. they worked under reagan and saw first-hand how government contractors effed up the DoD while proclaiming that they were economizing bigly. the debt exploded and social security went broke as it tried to support all of the shiftless welfare queens.

they’re fully on board with an anti-corporate democratic party.

to put it politely, my mom is not a fan of hillary clinton – but she detests trump more. by a long shot.

she’s ready for sea changes.

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