"Hillary Clinton" – A Historic Nominee ? The Very first Felon to be nominated

[mark47n]

This is my final bit as the mighty Capt. has decided to stick with buzzwords.

Fascism has a specific meaning; the marriage of business and governmental interests. There is a bit about overthrow of existing regimes/administrations but that makes no room for infiltration and subsuming the existing system, the first part is the important one.

There is no liberal Supreme Court.

Up until the’80’s something like 38% of workers were union. In the ’80’s Reagan destroyed PATCO and unions receded until now where something like 17% of workers are union. This is also attributed to the misleading concept of “Right to Work”. In states that are RtW wages and benefits are lower and state benefits are higher. Think Walmart.

The US spends more on defense than the next 3 largest countries and it’s driven by defense contractors and their politicians. Even though the Joint Chiefs have tried to shut down certain projects as unusable or otherwise undesired the politicians force the issue and waste the money on these projects.

Eisenhauer (R) pointed out that schools are more important than bombs. Schools continue to generate value while bombs, once used are gone. Money down the drain. Every R administration has increased this spending.

No Child Left Behind: leaves children behind by cutting school funding, not assisting the schools that lack resources.

Clean Water Act: this was created under Bush Jr. This actually increased the allowable levels of arsenic. Your body doesn’t shed arsenic as it does many heavy metals like lead and mercury.

Reagan raised taxes and still doubled the debt.

YOUR understanding of history is flawed. On a global level it would benefit you to realize that hungry unemployed people ruled over by the shockingly wealth have nothing to lose and have, often, crushed those wealthy. Think Cromwell, The various and sundry French Revolutions, Cambodia, Vietnam, China, Russia, Syria, etc.

Finally, it’s not in our best interests to have a nation of sick meatheads. This is why we have public education and it’s why we should have single payer healthcare! To say that we should allow other to profit on illness and misery says a lot about our country. As to the ACA, or Obamacare, this is a Republican Dream! Every citizen of this country shall purchase health insurance – not health care, insurance – from a private for-profit corporation of face financial penalties. I can still be denied care or medication. And let’s not forget Jr.s Medicare part D! The gov’t is shall not negotiate for better pricing from pharmaceutical companies! Another Republican Dream!

HallelujaH, Mark is out <drops mike>!

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[JanS]

my mind still goes back to the title of this thread. Will someone, preferable the OP, please supply us with links to the trial where Hillary Clinton was convicted of a felony. I think I missed the whole thing. Thanks.

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[dhg]

Cap’n Dave: We try not to make these things personal so it would be best not to challenge my knowledge of history. For your edification: http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/columns/founding-fathers-agreed-funding-public-education-is-not-a-debate/article_f05aa5b0-2fed-5c63-be1a-1b013cf49625.html

Jefferson founded a free college and was most proud of that over all his other accomplishments.

As for war, while it is true that other nations are not very controllable, we can exercise better restraint. When 11 Saudis fly planes into the World Trade Center, it makes no sense to go to war against Iraq. Dick Cheney promised the war would pay for itself. He was wrong.

You are correct that Hillary is not likely to fix the trade agreements. But I support her because she’s a better choice. I don’t think I need to go into the deficiencies of the other candidate except to say he is flat out unqualified.

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[JTB]

mark47n I’d like of offer several thoughts about fascism since on one hand, the term is bandied about inaccurately as you indicate and on the other, I think the nascent elements necessary for an American version of fascism are in evidence.

I think the most important defining element in fascism is a populist, nationalist mass movement. That is the driving force that supports the government involvement with business. That is also important in the violent suppression of civil liberties that characterizes fascism. It’s also the dynamic that those who equate corporatism and fascism tend to ignore.

In China and Russia there is direct government involvement with business but I believe those arrangements might better be described as state capitalism rather than fascism.

We certainly have increasing instances of direct government support for corporations and Trump has given voice to the sentiments in the American population that could easily coalesce into a nationalist mass movement, one whose members are well-armed.

I think the possibility of a progressive mass movement as Sanders called for has been subsumed by the Democratic Party leadership. If Trump wins or is defeated, the forces he has helped gain focus and confidence will likely advance toward an American fascism if unopposed.

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[mark47n]

Damn, I didn’t want to come back to this one…

My point, JTB, was more that the Democratic party isn’t fascist, not that there aren’t some elements on the rise in current politics, such as populism. I also believe that Trump has galvanized the far right lunatic fringe. Globally xenophobia and other isms are on the rise. Unfortunately when you place 3.6 billion rats in the same cage they eventually start to eat each other.

There is also the bizarre belief that the reason that the 2nd Amendment exists is to protect oneself FROM the government rather than to be a part of a militia that is answerable to the government, to say nothing of the fact that the individual states had rules governing those weapons and what we have now would’ve been inconceivable.

I simply was refuting the Capt’s assertion that HRC and the Democratic party are fascist. I wasn’t trying to spark a discussion on systems of government as I believe that’s akin to Pandora’s Box.

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[JTB]

mark47n
Sorry if my intention wasn’t clear. It wasn’t to dispute or refute what you said in reply to CD’s absurd assertion as much as to highlight what I think is a crucial element for people to think about regarding fascist movements.

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[mark47n]

You’re right.

Populism and violent overthrow are key aspects. Also, currently, aspects on the right.

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[captainDave]

JTB: Your concept of fascism is just dead wrong. By your account, any country that is defined by its heritage and secures its borders is fascist. Trump isn’t running on a nationalist platform either. What has happened under your high-brow liberal noses is that a lot of people have become sick and tired of an establishment that has embodied mass corruption, theft, manipulation, intimidation and oppression as a hallmark of modern government. Hillary’s pay-to-play arrangements in the State Department, her bent on centralized government authority, her diminishment of local policing in favor of federal control, and her desire to centralize siloed education indoctrination are all fundamental elements of fascism far more than superficial flag waving.

Trump espouses free market principals and proposes to loosen the noose of federal regulation blocking entrepreneurialism so that more people have the ability to innovate and participate in wealth building–How is that fascist? Trump wants to curtail the importation of cheap subsidized labor that’s enriching Hillary’s mega-corporate crony supporters–How is that fascist? Trump’s plan to decentralize and reduce government, suppress cronyism, and increase independent private sector job growth is the opposite of fascism. You guys really should take your blinders off and get an understanding why Trump has gotten so much support. Claiming that half the country are idiots makes liberals look stupid.

mark47n: Violence is currently an aspect of the right? Seriously? That’s the most delusional thing in this thread. Do you consider Black Lives Matter to be a right wing organization?

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[JTB]

cD I won’t speculate on why you missed it, but my comment about the populist, nationalist aspects of fascism was an addition to the corporate/government dynamic that mark47n discussed.

I think I have a pretty good idea of why Trump as gotten the support he has. Certainly, his populist, nationalist messaging is a big part of it. I’m eagerly awaiting the reaction of his fan base supporters to his recent pivot in announcing he doesn’t really intend to deport 11,000,000 undocumented residents after all.

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[dhg]

um…”Claiming that half the country are idiots makes liberals look stupid.” So, with the vast majority voting for Hillary, you maintain that the majority is stupid ????

Fascism is the marriage of government and corporatists. A good example of that is when Bank of America directed the police action against the Occupy Wall Street protestors. It is a sign that we are moving in the direction of fascism. Trump, however, is not one take us off that track. Neither is Hillary but I believe she’ll be better at slowing the pace than Trump.

What exactly are these hideous regulations that you are so eager to toss out? Clean air? Clean water? The ban against using children in coal mines? The rule that says food workers must wash their hands?

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[HMC Rich]

FBI found 14,900 more emails. People had to or chose to go through the Clinton Foundation to gain access to the State Department. The Prince Of Bahrain pledged $32,000,000. Hollywood Executive Casey Wasserman, Slimfast Mogul Daniel Abraham, Controversial Appointee Rajiv Fernando also among Clinton Foundation Donors Granted Special Favors from Clinton State Department

Liar, Liar Pantsuit on Fire.

She said they had turned over all of the emails. She lied again.

And some of you don’t even care that she abused her power.

Plus Colin Powell refuted what Mrs. Clinton claimed about using private email. She was doing that a year before he had his correspondence with her.

And now the “Comey/Clinton Extremely Careless Strategy” is being used by a Petty Officer who took six pictures of a system that is considered classified. Six pictures might get that person 5 years of jail! Compare that to someone else who did use a private server where secret or classified information was used, emails destroyed, and the FBI probe proved that this was done but Comey didn’t want to Indict. He looked foolish in front of congress when they questioned him.

And she is married to a man who did lie under oath and to the American people. A man that is considered a super star among many Democrats with a History of marital indiscretions to put it nicely. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Lying is a family tradition. I have many more if you want to hear them. Better yet, look it up yourself

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[anonyme]

Personally, I wish we could just chuck this entire election (including the candidates) out the window and start over. Unfortunately, these two candidates probably represent fairly accurately the ignorance, greed, and rage present in our country/society today. It’s not a pretty picture either way.

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[captainDave]

dhg: You apparently misread my statement. No matter, we will know soon enough if the predicted Hillary landslide will come to fruition.

I agree with you that Fascism is sort of a merger of government and corporations but it’s a lot more about absolute centralized government control–the sort of control you would get with an imperial president that rules with executive orders in support of activist judges on a puppet court. (The timing of Scalia’s death was pretty uncanny wasn’t it?).

I don’t see how BOA calling for police protection is a good example of fascism. Don’t any of you liberals have stock in BOA? Are you a fascist if you call the police to report a burger breaking into your home?
Anyway, a much better example of fascism is the enormous amount of new regulations that come out every month. Here is a short article you should read: http://www.businessinsider.com/ridiculous-regulations-big-government-2010-11 – there are lots of articles in nearly every industry about unnecessary over-regulation.

I have been trying to start a food business on boats for several years. It is now at the point where it will be nearly impossible to ever make back the investment I have sunk into the project due to bureaucracy costs–none of which give you cleaner air, better water or safer food–just more money to hire more government bureaucrats to keep us out of business.

I see a very troubling trend with Hillary Clinton and the progressive movement is that it is rapidly leading to an end of entrepreneurialism in America. As long-time entrepreneur, I get a first hand look at the effects of over-regulation. Whether you want to admit it to not, nearly everything you enjoy in this country was a result of entrepreneurial activity that traditionally created the surpluses of jobs and prosperity for the broadest range of people. Hillary’s new America will be driven by top-down government and large corporate employment–a return to the imperial serfdoms of centuries past. I challenge you to find one country in the world that has sustained long-term economic stability with such a system. Even communist Russia and China have embraced entrepreneurial capitalism in recent years to thwart the lethargic rot of socialism.

…But because of idealists like you, the City of Seattle, King County, Washington State and the federal government is doing everything it can to bring you the perfect nanny state so you won’t have to bother using your own brain.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by captainDave.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by captainDave.

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[JanS]

dear Capt. D…considering that I have not been able to chew food most of the summer because of a broken jaw and subsequent surgery, I would welcome a ” burger breaking into your home”.

Thanks…

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[JoB]

Good heavens.. I step away from the keyboard for a minute and look what happens..

i would ask where you get this stuff Captain Dave.. but i too have glanced at the headlines while waiting my turn to check out at the local grocery. You can literally print anything these days.. and people will believe it.

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[redblack]

regarding fascism, i agree largely with mark47, dhg, and JTB. big surprise, yeah?

the only thing i would add is that, during the heat of american elections, folks on the intertoobz love to bandy about the word “fascism,” and they like to scare fellow working class people with references to hitler in hopes of swaying opinions. maybe those folks were audited because they don’t understand tax law. who knows? it seems they can never tell you exactly why they hate our government in an articulate manner.

but the thing they all have in common is that they almost always mistakenly conflate fascism with authoritarianism or totalitarianism.

fascism, as others have pointed out, is more of an economic model than it is a form of governance.

so when modern american “conservatives” or “independents” on the internet call modern american liberals fascists, i usually just chuckle and move on.

well, here’s to shovelling sand against the tide, as the saying goes.

cheers!

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[dobro]

“I see a very troubling trend with Hillary Clinton and the progressive movement is that it is rapidly leading to an end of entrepreneurialism in America.”

Strangely enough, despite the right wing hand wringing about “small business” and “entrepreneurialism” in America being so endangered, the actual small business people seem to think things are ok.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/small%20business/2016/02/22/small-businesses-optimistic/80464200/

And despite all the accusations against Hillary and Obama regarding their socialistic destruction of the economy, we still seem to have the number 1 economy in the world.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp

So our “court of public opinion” that convicts Hillary of imaginary felonies seems to consist of one guy who’s having trouble getting his business started and blames the city (we, of course, have no real evidence of his own business acumen), one crank who copies and pastes right wing nut case emails and one confirmed Democrat hater. Case closed then, right?

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[captainDave]

JanS: I am so sorry to hear about your broken jaw. I hope it heels quickly.

redblack: When has Fascism ever been associated with anything other than tyrannical forms of centralized government? Why do you believe tax law should be so complex that people in our society can’t understand it? I know a lot of tax attorneys and accountants who are against reducing the complexity of the system, but that’s because they’re often the one’s who lobbied for things that give them more billing hours and less competition–I call that cronyism, but others might call it a step towards fascism. But so what? The effect of reducing productivity and freedom for the benefit of a few is still the same.

dobro: Your link is an advertorial by Allstate to encourage people to start businesses because they need more customers. If business is so great, why does Allstate have to pay to coax more people to start businesses?–this should be an obvious red flag to a smart, highly educated guy like you. Your other link doesn’t address the overall decline in world freedom caused by the current trend towards global socialism. Nearly all markets are in contraction, so a comparison isn’t relevant unless you include the height of the cliff everyone is falling off from.

I don’t know your specific situation, but your derogatory remarks seem consistent with people who are, or were: 1.) employed by government, 2.) employed by a business that is largely supported or protected by government, or 3.) living off of an income supplied or guaranteed by government. If so, good for you. But realize that your view from the upper decks of the Titanic may soon change if nothing is done to fix what’s happening bellow. If you wait until the lights go out, it may be too late to do anything about it.

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[dobro]

“I don’t know your specific situation…”

I am self employed, have been for 40 years, run my own business, and have never worked for or been subsidized by any gov’t, other than the services (roads, fire dept,etc…you know, socialism) my taxes pay for. My view of the economy for small biz is ground level and I’m doing fine and expect to continue so, thank you.Looks like your simplistic stereotypes don’t always pan out to be true. Your Trumpistic view doesn’t play in my neighborhood.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by dobro.

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[captainDave]

dobro: I have been in business for 39 years and doing just fine as well despite bureaucratic challenges to working in this city. But I am not so ignorant to project my own situation on the entire country. Seattle is enjoying the proceeds of an economic bubble right now largely because of the transition from brick and mortar to online retail–we benefit because much of the rest of the country is dying. Do you really think that is a sustainable strategy? Or maybe you are close enough to retirement that you don’t give a crap about anyone else’s future.

What do you believe Hillary Clinton will do to get people off welfare and back to worK? I believe the short answer is NOTHING because she is the one who enacted the plan to put most of them on the government dole to begin with.

How will more taxes and more regulations increase opportunities for new businesses and new private sector jobs that create real goods?

How will Hillary’s open borders solution make us safer against the ruthless and despotic world powers she helped embolden (namely ISIS and Iran)? or the mass illegal drug importation from Mexico?

How does flooding the country with cheep unskilled labor (and drugs) make it easier for our own citizens to have jobs?

Why do you think Hillary’s long trail of corruption, lies and deceit suddenly end if she were to become president?

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[dobro]

“Or maybe you are close enough to retirement that you don’t give a crap about anyone else’s future.”

I won’t be retiring any time soon and even when I do it won’t affect my ability to care about other people.

“What do you believe Hillary Clinton will do to get people off welfare and back to worK? I believe the short answer is NOTHING because she is the one who enacted the plan to put most of them on the government dole to begin with.”

What plan is that? When was Hillary president?

“How will more taxes and more regulations increase opportunities for new businesses and new private sector jobs that create real goods?”

What new taxes and regulations has Hillary proposed?

“How will Hillary’s open borders solution…”

What open border solution? I know about a path to citizenship proposal for those living here but I don’t recall any opening of the borders.

“Why do you think Hillary’s long trail of corruption, lies and deceit suddenly end if she were to become president?”

Have you looked at Donald Trump’s trail? I was a Bernie guy, but at this point we have 2 choices, Hillary or Trump. Trump is the most morally, temperamentally,and mentally unfit person to hold the nomination for a major office in my lifetime (oh, wait, I forgot about S Palin). To me, it’s a no-brainer. To you, perhaps it’s different. Luckily, my vote cancels yours.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by dobro.

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[JoB]

captain Dave..
i am pretty sure you will find some reason to discredit this since it doesn’t come from one of your “trusted” sources… sources that tell you what you already believe.. but for anyone else who is reading

Facts & Data on Small Business and Entrepreneurship

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[JoB]

Again. i don’t expect Captain Dave to believe wikipedia because it doesn’t say what he wants to hear..
but that welfare plan the hillary supposedly enacted?
it was the cornerstone of the Republican Contract with America…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act

Presidents (and may i remind you that Hillary was not President when this bill was signed) only have the power to sign or refuse to sign legislation that is passed by Congress…

i know this is ancient history which has been rewritten.. but the Democrats weren’t in charge when this piece of legislation was crafted and signed.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by JoB.

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[JoB]

this is tiring.. does anyone else miss the vibrant discussions that once occurred in the forums?

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[JanS]

yes, oh, yes…

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[Author]

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