Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Fiscal Cliff Pt. 2 – the bloodletting
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January 2, 2013 at 9:11 pm #606092
wakefloodParticipantOK, so we’ve seen this movie several times. Has the same ending. As we approach the deadline for the debt ceiling and sequestration…
…Obama will claim to stand firm publicly until he gets the deal he secretly wants. Which will be to:
1. Make the debt ceiling votes go away for 1 or 2 yrs.
2. Raise the SS retirement age by at least 1 or maybe 2 yrs.
3. He’ll extract some modest cuts to defense in exchange for either chained CPI or something just as brutal.
4. Some other Medicare/Medicaid concessions to cost cutting (read reduced benefit) with maybe, if he’s very lucky, the ability to negotiate scrip pricing.
5. A few billion $ for short term infrastructure to placate (read buy) a few recalcitrant Sen/Rep votes.
6. Little to no change to corporate tax code or subsidies (read no long term revenue relief).
All of which is to say, hellooo austerity, Democratic style.
Anyone care to argue this going another way? Please do. I’d like to have some hope but I think Obama’s shown his hand several times over the last few years. I think we’d have had a more progressive result if Goldwater was Pres. (half kidding).
January 2, 2013 at 9:34 pm #781453
wakefloodParticipantThe worst(?) part is that he will think this is the “shared pain” that he claims is his core belief.
I’m going to keep looking for the “pain” that the corporations and the wealthy will endure in this plan. Theirs will feel like a paper cut compared to the deep gash that the rest will absorb, relative to their economic standing.
Can’t wait for the rest of the “lost decade” to play out now. Hey, what’s 5 or more years of racing to the bottom amongst friends???
January 2, 2013 at 11:19 pm #781454
DBPMemberDo you know where Obama currently stands on the tax increase for people making over 250k? Last I heard, he was hanging tough on that number. If he caves, it will really hurt him. So much so that he may have to make a deal with Satan to bring Bin Laden back from the grave, just so he can kill the guy again.
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BTW: If it’s austerity we’re in for, how can we lay that on the Democrats’ doorstep? I mean, wouldn’t it be a bipartisan austerity?
The following graphic illustrates my point:
January 3, 2013 at 3:40 am #781455
hooper1961Memberwakeflood – Scene 1 tax rates on the wealthy go up.
Scene 2 government spending needs to be cut. the fact is SS, Medicare and Medicaid are huge cost items that need to be tamed. people live far longer than in the past; thus raising the retirement age must be done.
January 3, 2013 at 3:48 am #781456
clark5080ParticipantJanuary 3, 2013 at 3:55 am #781457
oddrealityParticipantSS is owed more money by our government than any single country we borrow from. Why do you think the repugs are after it all the time? They do not want to pay back what they spent of our hard earned money. The only thing SS has to do with the debt is that it needs to be paid back.
The government owes over 270 billion to SS. That is why it gets placed on the table at all. It is not an entitlement.It was fully funded by US ,you know, the workers,until the government broke their promise and raided it.
I assume that you Hoop, being a small business owner ,are paying into SS?? I hope you are. I have a family member that has his elderly in-laws living with him and off him because they lost their business and their investments and are now old enough for SS but sadly never paid in.All conservative republicans I might add..now they get food stamps and medicaid.Even conservative republicans can screw up.
Make a good decision for yourself and pay into SS for your own future.You could be screwing up your old age and your family but you may not know it for years.
You never know what life will bring you.
January 3, 2013 at 4:23 am #781458
JoBParticipanthoop..
perhaps all of those single item tax breaks that just got passed along again with the fiscal cliff deal would be a better target than some old duffer’s food bill..
just saying.
January 3, 2013 at 6:23 am #781459
hooper1961Memberyes oddreality i pay SS and see the true cost since i pay the entire tax (both the employer and employee shares).
JoB – i just heard NASCAR got some kind of tax break that if true would not be appropriate (thus please sit down; an item we agree on)
January 3, 2013 at 4:03 pm #781460
JoBParticipantNascar isn’t the only one. Those who don’t work for wages or actually produce anything except money just got their tax rate topped at 20%.
i told you to stop stooping over to pick up those pennies..
it leaves your back pocket really vulnerable.
January 3, 2013 at 4:50 pm #781461
wakefloodParticipantI just wonder why Hoop seems to think that the dramatic reworking of the tax code over the last 30yrs. that has pushed 90% of the wealth gains away from the lower/middle class up to the investor class, has been a positive change for this country?
That was extreme social engineering manifested.
Where’s the great things we all were supposed to get from this grand experiment? What things do we point to with pride about what we’ve contributed to the world that results from this? What do we do well as a country/society?
January 3, 2013 at 5:06 pm #781462
hooper1961Memberthe extreme social engineering has created a state infested with welfare dependency. it is time to pull the plug.
in the distant past the only folks getting a helping hand by the government were the handicap and mentally retarded folks.
oddreality SS will start to run a deficit in the not to distant future. raising the retirement age and tweaking the COLA formula are the best options available. AND I am fearful that when in 15 to 20 years I retire people who lived frugally and saved will get screwed out of their portion of the payments. better to refine the system overall (treats everyone the same) versus future means testing that would penalize middle class people who save.
January 3, 2013 at 5:18 pm #781463
wakefloodParticipantReally? That’s the story you choose to believe after 3+ decades of trickle down? Or “shovel up” as I prefer to call it.
Way to completely dodge the question…AND more importantly, the DATA that disproves your premise.
Shaking head.
January 3, 2013 at 5:31 pm #781464
JoBParticipanthoop..
welfare dependency is what happens to people when you deprive them of the means to earn a living.
you know.. the end result of trickle down..
job creation overseas…
January 3, 2013 at 5:54 pm #781465
hooper1961MemberJoB as i have said before work is available to those that work hard to find it.
January 3, 2013 at 6:08 pm #781466
wakefloodParticipantAgain, I’m just confirming that Hoop suggests that the most significant economic experiment conducted in the last 75yrs. has resulted in one thing of pride, or positivity, or as a point of admiration for our country.
More people on welfare.
Well done, you supply-siders! Bravo, ye trickle-downers! Huzzah!!
January 3, 2013 at 6:20 pm #781467
hooper1961Memberactually wakeflood you made my point very clear too many people on the dole. and it is time to make the harsh decision to pull the plug on this. it is like amputating a leg with gangrene to save the patient.
January 3, 2013 at 6:34 pm #781468
wakefloodParticipantI don’t get what kind of logic methodology you’re using to reach that conclusion, Hoop. It’s certainly not anything I’m familiar with.
If trickle down worked, you’d be able to point to lots of wonderful results, yes? But you can’t. You point to a negative. So, following logic, you’re actually making MY point. But since that’s lost on you, I give up.
January 3, 2013 at 6:45 pm #781469
hooper1961Memberwakefield i think the welfare state ought to be dismantled. it is like gangrene in the leg; if you don’t cut it off the body will get consumed and die.
welfare has created a dependent underclass that is not acceptable and it is time to pull the plug and let people sink or swim.
January 3, 2013 at 7:21 pm #781470
JoBParticipanthoop
“JoB as i have said before work is available to those that work hard to find it.”
sorry hoop. this statement is an epic fail.
are you really still this misinformed?
January 3, 2013 at 7:22 pm #781471
JoBParticipanthoop..
“it is time to make the harsh decision to pull the plug on this. it is like amputating a leg with gangrene to save the patient.”
no. without jobs all you do is kill the patient.
January 3, 2013 at 7:24 pm #781472
JoBParticipanthoop..
have you ever stopped to think for even a second about your own personal welfare and safety if half of the people in this country had no shelter or source of income or food?
you are clearly not thinking this through.
January 3, 2013 at 8:01 pm #781473
wakefloodParticipantOy, Hoop, your position has been stated on that topic. It IS NOT however, the question I posed to you and virtually any other Righty on this Blog. And one to which this country never seems to get a straight up answer.
If trickle-down, supply-side, voodoo economics WORKED, you’d have wonderful things to point to as a result of a 30+yr. economic experiment on REAL PEOPLE. What are those things?
Waiting…
The answer to anyone NOT blinded by ideology is that it’s been an epic and wholesale failure for all but a very precious few.
You have a neglected and broken down society that has been belching smoke out the tailpipe. There’s a root cause to that stuff. Welfare is a symptom, not a cause.
January 3, 2013 at 8:32 pm #781474
JoBParticipanti would add to what wakefield said
“The answer to anyone NOT blinded by ideology is that it’s been an epic and wholesale failure for all but a very precious few”
who are doing their best as we speak to figure out how to get their hands on whatever assets middle class Americans have left..
and the pot of gold they have their eyes on is your social security.
you can give them access to it
or you can stand up for yourself and tell those idiots we elected to leave social security alone.
it really is up to you.
January 3, 2013 at 8:38 pm #781475
hooper1961Memberlike i said raising the retirement age and refining the COLA is appropriate and better ensures that everyone (EVERYONE) who has contributed to the ponzi scheme gets something in return. if nothing is done the &*^% will hit the fan when the IOU’s are paid back and the system starts running a deficit. then what JoB; screw those that saved during their working years? or cut everyone’s benefits by 25%? please tell me? AND do not give me the crap of raising more taxes.
January 3, 2013 at 8:48 pm #781476
wakefloodParticipantWell, we have the definitive position.
“… and do not give me the crap of raising more taxes.”
JoB, time to stop wasting our breath…again.
It apparently doesn’t matter one iota to Hoop or his ilk that taxes are at 50yr. lows for almost anyone and especially those at the top and for corporations. Facts don’t matter. Nothing will break the spell.
I respectfully suggest that Hoop and his brethren move to someplace off the grid and live entirely of their own making. Maybe start a commune of like minded “off the gridders” with whom you can bargain for building your infrastructure needs.
Seriously.
I’m done.
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