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May 6, 2008 at 7:53 pm #623788
JoBParticipantVincent…
we would probably agree on a lot of the particulars, but …
you see this as a car versus bike versus pedestrian (because bike pedestrian accidents are on the rise as well)issue…
i see it as an issue of those who are self absorbed against those who are conscientious …
that is the conversation i wish we would have more often.. because a shift towards remembering that you are part of the whole and responsible for the health of the whole would benefit everyone.
New Resident…
often bike rider don’t use the bike lanes becasue of those who are using the bike lanes…people walking dogs on extended leashes and not paying attention… joggers on headphones… skaters.. etc…
May 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm #623789
KayleighMemberIs there anything good that can come from feeding this war between cyclists and drivers?
How about both sides show some grace and understanding and let it go.
May 6, 2008 at 8:15 pm #623790
ErikParticipantAnother reason why I’ve had to get out of the bike lane is because of drainage grates, broken glass, gravel, potholes, parked cars, etc. But I always try to be cognizant of other traffic so I don’t become a pancake in the process.
As for being safe around cars, peds, and other bikes, in my 30 yrs of riding I find that making eye contact with the other person goes a long way in keeping harmony on the roads/paths/intersections.
May 6, 2008 at 8:44 pm #623791
EKMemberYet more reasons cyclists don’t use bike lanes: the potential to be hit by someone opening their car door as the bike lane places you too close to parked cars. The tendency of drivers to assume you’ll stay in that lane and/or not notice you. I generally ride like a car in the right lane and signal to inform my upcoming movements. I’m much easier to see in the middle of the lane than I am hugging a curb or bike lane. I’m a driver as well as a cyclist so this is not just a random cyclist’s opinion.
May 6, 2008 at 9:02 pm #623792
AnonymousInactiveSounds like there should be improvements made with the bike lanes. Why don’t cyclists band together and try to improve conditions of their own lanes instead of driving in the middle of traffic lanes?
Sorry, Kayleigh. Not trying to feed the war really. Just wondering, if conditions are so bad, why not do something about it? What I gather is that cyclists are saying the bike lanes are unusable, therefore, they are forced to ride in traffic lanes. That’s what this whole debate seems to be about. Cars and bikes cohabitating peacefully. But, as a driver, I don’t go drive on the sidewalk because the road is completely torn up.
Okay. I know I’m gonna get it now.
May 6, 2008 at 9:13 pm #623793
EKMemberNewResident – I don’t think you’ll “get it” for asking a valid question. However – we have an organization, Cascade, that advocates for cyclists in greater Seattle. There is disagreement among the cyclists as to bike lane safety. The city has made adding more bike lanes a priority as part of the Bicycle Master Plan. I disagree with that priority as do many. People are definitely speaking out on this issue in this city. If we had bike lanes that were better designed, I might support them more. Bike signaling would be great as well. Until then, I ride in the street, like a car.
May 6, 2008 at 9:13 pm #623794
JoBParticipantnew resident..
we don’t do something about it for the same reason we don’t do anything about public transportation.. or set stronger emission standards on cars.. or…
the provisions for bike riders aren’t really much better than when i used a bike for transportation over 30 years ago.. yet the competition for space has grown exponentially…
May 6, 2008 at 9:17 pm #623795
JoBParticipantnew Resident..
i just caught your comment about not going into the bike lanes because the road is torn up in your lane..
but you do realize that tons of people do….
they ride in the bus lanes because traffic has slowed and they want to get to their exit faster.. they drive down the left turn lanes.. crossing solid yellow lines to pass anyone they think is too slow.. they use right turn lanes like a passing lane…
so many drivers would gladly use the bike lane as another lane if it was wide enough to do so…
and it needs to be that wide to be safe…
May 7, 2008 at 2:52 am #623796
AlParticipantThis is a great forum so far. Lots of back and forth information from both sides. I am a daily bike commuter (year round) to downtown but my household has a car and motorcycles. I also walk and take the bus where I need to go as much as possible, so maybe I think I have a good perspective…
First, thanks for ALL the great drivers out there. Especially the nice Ford pickup that was extremely patient today as we travelled down Ambaum – that made my day!
I’ll concentrate on the bike part. Bikes have the right to use the entire lane if they choose. Most of the time I do so because there are hazards if I stay to the right (doors, autos pulling into roadway, gravel, glass, not only potholes but cracks in the pavement, aggressive vehicles – so they have less room to ‘buzz’ me, sight-lines, visibility – so autos can see me, grates, manhole covers, large puddles, etc, etc). I don’t always like doing so because I know it irritates auto drivers, but if I don’t want to end up under your car, or sprawled on the road, I will use my legal lane to get back and forth.
Sidewalks: not always “safe.” Crossing autos are the worst – the driveway at Salty’s is a prime example. I’m sure many of you have been cut off by cars zooming into the sidewalk even as a pedestrian or in-line skater. It’s scary and it causes more accidents than if the bike was in the road b/c drivers are looking for other cars, not peds or bikes. Add to that the curbs, the uneven pavement, and the pedestrians who really legally have the right of way on sidewalks, and it becomes a hazard. Remember though, that part of the official “bike route” to and from West Seattle/Downtown is on a shared sidewalk/MUP.
Bike Lanes: Bikes are not legally required to use them. I think in some cases they are very well done, when not squished in between a roadway and a row of parked cars – very dangerous b/c of door issue. However, they can be useful when climbing hills or separated from traffic. Seattle does not do this however, and most experienced bicyclists will stay out of them. The only bike lanes currently installed in WS follow more of a recreational route, not a commuting route.
I do agree that 35th is not a good place any longer for bikes. I used to ride it, but haven’t for a good 3 years now. Perhaps bike lanes will help, but only if they do not get placed alongside parked cars and police enforcement of autos disregarding the lanes is enforced.
Scofflaw cyclists: bad. I don’t like them any more than you do. I don’t run red lights b/c that will likely get me killed. Sometimes I do a rolling stop at a stop sign, but rarely and never in traffic. Hey, I’ve had cars honk at me because I was yielding to oncoming traffic and try to force me out of the intersection. Not right. I obey the laws and will continue to do so. Drivers disobey the laws all the time. I see more cars run red lights than bicyclists by far.
Give us room – when you drive by us, with only 1 foot to spare, it’s very scary. We do react to that sometimes, mostly out of fear. If I’m taking a lane, I’ll move over when it’s safe for me to do so, or wave you by. It takes 3 seconds to pass me, and 3 seconds to kill/injure me. Which do you choose?
May 7, 2008 at 4:17 am #623797
AnonymousInactiveIt’s really funny to me that bikers won’t use “bike lanes” because of “pot holes”, “cracks in the pavement” or “puddles”, yet you will risk your life in a traffic lane where a motorist could possibly not see you, not have enough room to make it around you or have to slam on their brakes to accommodate you being there. The pros and cons don’t add up. Seems more dangerous to ride in the traffic lane (even if it is ridiculously legal). You’re that concerned about your safety, get in the bike lane or on the sidewalk (less risk there)!
May 7, 2008 at 4:45 am #623798
JanSParticipantAl…thanks for that. When I made my statement earlier about the guy going 10 mph and holding up a line of traffic, I never said anything about animosity towards bikers in general. I would have been equally as frustrated if it had been a car going the same speed. All I was saying/requesting was that we all need to be aware of what’s around us, and it seems that you are. I have noticed the “sharrows” painted around town and have thought about how close they are to parked cars, and those unsuspecting car owners who open their car doors without looking to see if it’s clear to do so.
I don’t honk at bicyclists…don’t want to startle them as I do realize one false move on either of us could be sdisater. We can all live on the roads together if we just respect each other, pay attention to each other…
May 7, 2008 at 6:49 am #623799
JeraldParticipantFrom the point of view of a car driver, I think what most concerns me about cyclists is their unpredictability. They can maneuver more quickly, popping on and off the sidewalks, or ride down the street like a vehicle and then dart across in front like a pedestrian. I recently saw a cyclist hit by a car as it turned right — the bike was passing on the right.
Like others have said, it’s a minority of both drivers and riders who cause the problems, but it’s generally the bicyclists who suffer as a result.
We all need to be more careful, especially as there’ll be more bikes on the road, like Vincent said.
May 7, 2008 at 8:06 am #623800
JeffroMemberAny safety-conscious cyclist would use the sidewalk only as a last resort. Cars don’t expect anything faster than walking-speed on the sidewalks, and will pull out of driveways accordingly, not to mention that it endangers pedestrians. That said, I’ll take the sidewalk when going up the hills on Admiral or California.
As to which is safer, a bike lane or a normal lane, chances are if a car doesn’t see you in the traffic lane is in a bad enough state that they won’t see you in the bike lane either, and multiply that by all the debris and the fact that the person getting out of their car into the bike lane isn’t thinking at all about if a bike is coming. I don’t know which I’d like worse, getting rear-ended or catching the side of someone’s door with my face, but they’re both about equal in my book.
Jerald, I think you’re absolutely right that predictable riding is key to a safe biking experience. I think it takes a while to get right. I know I still make regrettable mistakes now and then.
The vast majority of my rides to and from the U-District are without incident, which is just the way I like it. I think most Seattle drivers are pretty good around bikes, and the awareness by drivers has very much improved since I first took to the streets ten years ago.
May 7, 2008 at 6:50 pm #623801
EKMemberTo clarify why potholes and such are dangerous in the bike lanes – if your wheel gets sucked into a rut or grate and you go down, you will likely get run over by a car as you skid. If the road condition is better in the car lane (and it often is), it is safer to ride there. If you are in the middle of the driving lane and see a pothole coming, you can more safely go around it because you do not have to quickly swerve into traffic – you’re already in it.
I have wrecked my bike more than once on city streets (crossing the “Missing Link” in Ballard I hit the railroad tracks that are not at a correct crossing angle, and bouncing down missing cobblestones). My first thought is always “I hope there is not a car nearby to run over me.”
I can think of an example in West Seattle where it would be safer to ride in the traffic lane than hugging the curb where the sharrows are painted. On Beach Drive south of Alki, much of the far right portion of the street is riddled with potholes and cracks. This is a beautiful street to ride on, but the road condition sucks so much it’s hard to imagine why the city thought this would be a good commuting route.
May 8, 2008 at 1:54 am #623802
CMPParticipantEK, you’re right about that area of Beach Drive…it’s terrible! I tend to ride home that way from work (seems less traveled and safer than Avalon) and I’ve taken to riding in the middle of the lane since there is so much glass and debris in the sharrows. Seattle needs to take street cleaning seriously b/c there’s nothing more annoying than getting a flat tire in the middle of your commute.
Some of you that don’t get it should ride a bike sometime on a busy road to check out the conditions. You’d ride in the middle of the road instead of off to the side too!
May 8, 2008 at 2:09 am #623803
AlParticipantI think that regular cyclist should “buddy up” with those non-bikers, or potential bicyclists and show them around. I know that several bike clubs do this, but not sure how much the program is utilized, especially in the neighborhoods. It may be extremely helpful to give another perspective to motorists who are concerned about “why to bicyclist DO that?” Well, we can show you!
May 8, 2008 at 4:04 am #623804
JoBParticipantMay 12, 2008 at 10:29 pm #623805
vincentMemberGreat discussion, we have come a long way from *rude* cyclists, and misunderstandings about whats legal.
Please be mindful of new cyclists, there will be many on the road this week as bike to work day is this Friday the 16th.
May 13, 2008 at 3:09 am #623806
JillParticipantHi SA from post #2, if you’re still reading, or anyone else who likes to ride but is wary of downtown,
Actually, downtown is not that bad, and I encourage you to give it a try. In my experience commuting off and on for the past 5 years, downtown traffic is (for the most part) more predictable and tolerant/aware of cyclists than on, say, Fauntleroy or even Alaska between Fauntleroy and the Junction. Also, because it’s slower during rush hour, generally you’re not holding anyone up if you ride in the center of the lane. I wouldn’t say riding downtown is relaxing, but it’s also not what I would consider scary if you know the laws and ride smartly yourself. There are some great web sites that give tips for riding in traffic. Start with rideyourbike.com, and follow their links. Also take a look at the commuting boards on the Cascade site to get an idea of the best routes. Ok, sorry, this is turning into an ad for bike commuting! :)
One exception to what I think is pretty straightforward cycling downtown: the *bike lane* on 2nd. Always a recipe for disaster. To NewResident and others who assume that riding in the bike lane should always be safer by default, you might have to either take the word of those with experience, or get out and ride regularly in various areas to understand the situation. You’re right that it doesn’t make any sense on the surface, and I thought the same thing. Once I started riding, it didn’t take long for me to figure out that, as with most issues, there’s nothing B&W about it.
May 13, 2008 at 6:57 pm #623807
JiggersMemberI can’t believe that they’ve allowed $270 million dollars to build stupid bike paths around the city. Is that true? What waste of money if you ask me.
May 14, 2008 at 4:25 pm #623808
vincentMembernice on jiggers! EPIC TROLL post!
go ahead and read the whole thread and post something that isn’t just “I hate ______”
May 16, 2008 at 2:44 am #623809
AlParticipantI’d be up for showing someone around if we can find a day that works – one to two people maximum though. What about you Vincent?
May 16, 2008 at 7:03 pm #623810
vincentMemberYeah totally. I shepherded four people into downtown today for bike to work day.
May 18, 2008 at 3:40 pm #623811
austinMemberRave!! for biking on sunny weekends. And the water taxi. And the cheese festival. And aloe gel. And for being a leaf on the wind.
Vincent, thanks for the tip, the folks at alki bike & board got me fixed up with the quickness. Its nice to be able to walk to the bike shop when the ride’s out of commission.
May 25, 2008 at 8:27 pm #623812
AlParticipantIf anyone is seriously interested in bike commuting to downtown, I’d be willing to buddy up with you to get you started. I leave pretty early in the a.m. (6:30) and leave work generally around 4:00 p.m. This also allows avoidance of the worst of rush-hour. I ride from the Morgan Junction to the Eastlake area.
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