Conservative Dilema

[WSMom]

JoB: You do not “rant”! You speak the truth. Your writing is concise, easy to follow and fun to read! I doubt that CharlaBob was talking to you.

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[JoB]

i don’t think i rant either WSMom… but is sure could use some help with my spelling and stle soem days:)

had an interesting conversation with a bunch of “older” women today and one of them is strongly pro-Obama. She talked a lot about the nation needing vision to inspire them. it was interesting.

Obama is inspiring.

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[charlabob]

WSmom is right…I wasn’t talking about JoB (but I suspect she knew that :-) I think she spels rit gud and thinks even bedder.

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[Anonymous]

I’m not going to get too involved in this thread for obvious reasons. I’ve learned from the past. I did want to say, though, that I think House was merely implying that there is always a way to handle particular situations. Just a little while after Ken wrote that he could not afford health insurance, someone gave him the name of a health care provider that seemed affordable. I think, if you choose to go into business for yourself, something you should maybe think about is how you are going to take of yourself. Ken obviously chose to become self-employed. If by doing that, you no longer can have or get health insurance and that is a big issue to you personally, maybe you should rethink your plan. I know House talked about “victims”. Maybe this is why. If you cannot provide yourself health insurance, don’t become self-employed and then talk about how unfair that is. Does that make any sense? I think Starbucks provides health insurance if you work only 20 hours a week. Maybe getting a small, second job that will provide your health insurance is an option. To say, though, that you will die of a life-threatening illness and that’s a fact, is very drastic. Especially because there are things you could do. There’s always other options.

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[JoB]

New resident.. i think you missed the part where Ken said that he was no longer on the medications he was taking which implied some sort of pre-existing condition… which doesn’t leave you the option of having your condition covered by health insurance and in many cases prevents employers from hiring you.

Yet, he still works. That doesn’t sound much like someone who considers themselves a victim to me.

Assumptions are dangerous. When we make assumptions like “anyone can be covered by health insurance if they choose to do so” we are generally doing so without all of the information.

And i doubt that he was being drastic when he said that he would die of a life threatening illness. Though he would be treated initially in the emergency room at great cost, he is unlikely to have the funds from self employment to cover the cost of his total care and it is is a fact that the rate of mortality from illness is much higher if you are uninsured.

It is obvious that these are truths which disturb you.. and which you would rather not hear.. but that doesn’t make them untrue.

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[JanS]

The Alliance for Affordable services is a joke…it’s not affordable. I have 3 pre-existing conditions. I doubt that I could get an insurance policy for less than 800/mo, and that would have an extremely high deductible..if they’d take me at all. Yes, I’m self-employed (please don’t tell me to choose another way – when I did this I was married, had insurance through my husband – and things happen, marriages fail, oh, so sorry, no more health insurance)…in the health care field. I do what I do because I love it, have done it for over 13 years,am good at it, am no longer in my 50’s ( get a job? are you kidding? not with my credentials – those jobs simply don’t exist). Three years ago I was diagnosed with breast cancer…and I had no insurance. What saved me? I was diagnosed through a mammogram provided by something called the WA state BCHP – Breast and Cervical Health Program. Because of that, I am insured through the state at no cost, until I’m done with treatment, which will be at least another 3 years. Yes, there are ways…but I had to get cancer to find that way. I’m fine…and not telling this for sympathy or emotions. Please don’t misunderstand. I am pointing out that “s**t happens”, and you sometimes have no control over things…and you deal the best way you can.

To tell Ken to go work part time at Starbucks is insulting, just to get insurance. There should be AFFORDABLE insurance for people not, just those that are affluent. New Res…you chose to be a flight attendant…I chose to be a massage therapist, House chose to be whatever he is, as did Ken. I’m sure the first thing you thought of when deciding to be that wasn’t your health insurance.

Having said that…for someone who is younger than me…even into their 40’s…you might try Lifewise of WA, if you’re just going for catastrophic type insurance. Yes, you’ll probably have about a 1500 buck deductible…but…it has worked for a couple of friends of mine who are self-employed.

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[JoB]

house and new resident…

i would add one thing to the health care part of this discussion… having health insurance does not guarantee coverage… pre-existing condition or not.

Not one of the medications i take nor the stop smoking medication that my hubby takes is covered under our health plan’s medication coverage. And their cost is substantial. so is the insurance:(

There is only one medication approved for my condition and i can’t take it. There is no “standard of care” at all. So, not a lot is covered.

We will have the option of changing insurance plans soon.. and we will, but there is no guarantee that my illness will be any better covered than it was with this plan.

For those with chronic illness… and there are a lot of Americans with chronic illness… not lack of character or bad lifestyle choices… chronic illness… health insurance doesn’t turn out to be much protection from the rising costs of health care… and yet we have to keep it because of the possibility of an accident or catastrophic illness. So, we pay for insurance and then we pay again for health care.

So when someone who obviously doesn’t know what they are talking about spouts rhetoric and blame at those of us who have to deal with the flaws in the system, we can get just a tadd cranky.

Believe me this wasn’t a choice i made. Nor was Ken’s a choice he made. Nor was JanS’s a choice she made.

Yet, this is what life sometimes throws at you.. and when it does, it would help to have the kind of coverage you thought you had created for yourself.

I certainly don’t consider myself a victim.. and my personal story isn’t such a bad one… but i believe it is true that people are being victimized… because of the assumptions made about how they could have coverage if they wanted to and how it is their own fault they don’t.

Think about it.. you get sick, you get blamed for for being ill, you really get blamed if you don’t get better, you get blamed for not having adequate insurance thru no fault of your own and then you get blamed for thinking that the whole thing just a bit unfair.

This, in a nutshell is why Americans need a Universal Health Care program and we could never have made the point as clearly as you two did.

I am assuming you just didn’t know because i don’t think anyone could intentionally be that rude or thoughtless about the suffering of others.

But you do now. And if you don’t believe me.. or anyone else who posts here… all you have to do is a little research and you will find that the facts have been understated… not overstated… here.

Of course, that will challenge your world view… but at least your opinions will be based on evidence, not misinformation and innuendo.

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[TheHouse]

Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier, I can’t always sit around and blog all day so it’s going to be impossible for me to address each response above.

First, I would like to thank NewResident for at least understanding and articulating one of my points. You hit the nail on the head.

Second, just because I feel that people should control their own lives and be accountable for their actions does not mean that I do not understand that things out of our control occur. It is also incorrect to believe that I do not have compassion.

Breast cancer is a terrible thing, car accidents are terrible things, seeing a child suffer is a terrible thing. I don’t believe for a second that throwing people into the street b/c they don’t have insurance is going to solve anything (in fact it makes things worse for everyone).

I’ve already stated what I believe one of the ideological differences between me and the majority of you that responded above. Your responses above still lack accountability and have underlying tones of entitlement no matter what life decision you choose. I did not state anything that is false or provide misinformation.

For people that are supposedly open minded, it is interesting that you can’t open your mind wide enough to see that the situations (whether they are positive or negative) you are in today are based on your past decisions. You also can’t be open minded enough to see that you should not be penalized for making positive decisions nor have others penalized for your wrong decisions.

I wish all of you the best of luck and once again and really appreciate you all helping me with my dilema. The dilema is over…I will vote for McCain.

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[JanS]

you think I feel entitled? You’re serious? I am blessed, if you will, extremely lucky, if you will….but entitled? Absolutely not. I manage, and managed quite fine without your help, other’s help, without handouts. Wrong decisions? What wrong decision did I make? I don’t understand why you keep bringing that up? You’re the only one who makes all the right decisions? My decision was to better my life by going back to school…to better my marriage. I didn’t make a wrong decision…unless you count being married to a man for 21 years, who changed those decisions in a heartbeat. Too bad…I managed to raise a child, support us, support myself. And without anyone’s help. I get tired of your holier-than-thou smugness, pointing out to us that we’ve “chosen” whatever may have befallen us. Life happens, “sh*t” happens…and the beat goes on.

What changed your mind about McCain?

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[JanS]

and, yes, that was emotional – lol…

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[Kayleigh]

JanS, why didn’t you ‘choose’ to be clairvoyant? Instead, you chose a career that helps others heal. (Wishing *you* continued healing, btw.)

Question for you conservatives: why do you choose judgmentalism and smugness rather than empathy and humility?

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[TheHouse]

I won’t respond to Jan in a public fourmn out of respect..I’ll reserve it for when we are face to face.

Kayleigh, what you interpert as judgemental and smugness in my responses is really confidence and optimism. I truly believe that no matter what life situation you’re in right now, you can improve your situation and have a higher quality of life. Complaining does you no good…only action helps!

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[JoB]

House.. we are glad you are so confident and optimistic that nothing bad can happen to you.

My youngest brother didn’t think so until he went water skiing one day and collapsed a lung. and then it happened again a year later when he picked a bag up.

My other brother didn’t think so either until he slipped on a ladder two stories up at a fire and ruined his back.

Both brother’s injuries effectively ended their careers. One is already retired and the other will retire this year.. long before he wanted to.

Both are strong republicans. Both chose professions with excellent health care (policeman/fireman).

Both realize now that something needs to be done about the health care system because that great health care they counted on disappears with their jobs. The youngest just turned 50. The older is only a couple of years his senior.

Perhaps they are harder for you to dismiss as winers or feeling entitled because they are republicans.

Neither of them feels entitled. They simply feel that they should receive the benefits they were promised when they signed up for their career.

The youngest knows that won’t happen because he ended up on the committee that tried to negotiate quality healthcare for retired policeman and got a good dose of reality.

the older found out when he received the paperwork for his retirement. His wife is self employed and neither of them would qualify for a work related insurance plan because of pre-existing conditions. Luckily, she was making enough in the real estate market that they didn’t need to worry. But it’s not looking so simple for them right now.

I wonder what action you would have either of them take that would stop the bleeding of their retirements from their health care expenses. Should they have chosen less dangerous occupations? In the younger’s case, should he have forgone water skiing with his kids?

He is lucky. As long as his wife continues to work as a nurse, he will have good health care. but i think she sort of thought she would get to retire some day too. maybe not.

Neither of my brothers will be able to get health insurance now that covers their expenses in any measurable way because of their pre-exisitng conditions.

And lest you make more assumptions about them being lazy overweight men who didn’t take care of their bodies… they are both exceedingly fit ex-athletes. They were gymnasts who can still do floor exercise… they both play any competitive sport… they both climb… until the latest lung collapse the younger could still outdo his athletic navy son in push ups. in fact, he just remodeled his home… doing the work himself.

These are not disabled people. And they are exceedingly confident and optimistic. In fact the younger thought he could do some shallow diving still until his nurse wife put her foot down. And by the way.. both are looking at the next half of their lives to see what they might like to do next.

these are two good republicans who worked hard, graduated from college, chose professions that guaranteed good benefits and both excelled in those professions and took great care of their bodies. What should they have done differently House?

the real problem in both cases is that they entered into contracts that were changed on them without their knowledge or approval. What you label as entitlement… they label as breached contracts.

It is not entitlement to think that you should get what you paid for… and that you should not pay more and get less for the same product… and that you should have an option to choose another product if you are unsatisfied with the one you have… for one that will give you more.. even if you pay more.

That is not what is happening with health insurance now.

so house.. how will you find a way to dismiss these republican men? Men with a tradition of service? Men whose son’s serve? Men who will vote for John McCain while shaking their head about many of the policies their party stands for. How will you show them the respect they have earned while dismissing their reality?

or will you simply use the excuse that their stories are less true because they are told by their democratic sister?

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[JoB]

House…

i am in a real dilemma here. I can’t let this go. I so want to let you know how off base you are deciding that my ill health and/or the lack of coverage my medical insurance provides for it is due to my “choices” … that i am some sort of complainer who is not accountable for her own life.

but i realize you are whistling in the dark.

As long as you believe i or others have done something to create this for ourselves, you don’t have to believe it can happen to you. and if you don’t believe it can happen to you or someone you love… then you can decide that anything that happens to anyone else is their own fault and therefore nothing that you should concern yourself with.

but mostly, you can believe yourself safe.. blessed. Or maybe not.. as blessed implies that something outside your control created a safe place for you and your family.

I don’t know whether to shake the living daylights out of you for being so rude and insensitive to others or to feel sorry for you.

But if you keep attacking individuals for telling their personal stories that illustrate the problems with our current health care system… insisting on labeling them complainers when they are only naming the problem that needs to be solved, i will stop talking to you.

Attack my ideas. Infer anything you want about the political policies my party stands for. refute my points. i love to learn. But stop making assumptions and judgments about me.

Name calling is not and never has been part of civilized conversation and that is the only kind i am interested in.

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[Kayleigh]

Humility and empathy can co-exist with optimism and confidence, House. They’re not mutually exclusive.

I go to work every day expecting to succeed and work hard, but I know what it feels like to be laid off and even fired. I am humble enough to know that despite my optimism, I could be unemployed and insurance-less again, either through my own mistakes or through factors I can’t control. That is really the only point I am making here.

JoB, the scary thing to me is that the situation is getting worse. I’m a Gen X-er, and we are even less likely than previous generations to have pensions, retirement, social security, affordable home ownership, Medicare, etc. available to us.

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[Anonymous]

I am neither smug nor judgmental and don’t appreciate being assumed as such. I do have compassion for people who are in bad health, who are disabled. I see this everyday. A lot of you have stories to tell about yourselves and loved ones who have experienced misfortune. I, too, have stories about loved ones.

In response to Jan… as a matter of fact, the health benefits and financial benefits (401k, profit sharing) played a major role in me deciding what I would do for a living. In fact, played the only role. I can no longer do what I trained to do for 14 years because of an injury. When I was 18, my parents had the good foresight to urge me to go to work for a Company that provided the things I would need to lead a good life. I am indebted to my parents for aiding me in this choice. So, yes, Jan, that is the sole reason I chose to do what I do.

Your brother, you wrote, can no longer work but can redo his house all on his own. That is very impressive. I’m glad that he is at least that healthy.

My closest friend threw his back out at work three years ago. He still works. It bothers him all the time. I know people that have blown out their eardrums and they still work. I know a Captain that is missing four fingers on one hand and he still flys planes. People do what they have to do.

Also, I can’t tell you how many men and women I meet at my job that are in their later years and starting their very first career. Most of those people have just been through a divorce. Some have retired from other careers because of injury. They found another option. Saying that someone could get a small, part-time job just for the insurance is not being insulting. It was just a suggestion. Something to think about.

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[Anonymous]

I also want to point out that I don’t see where anyone has been called names. I don’t understand why, if House states his opinion, he is considered “attacking”. I don’t see where anyone is being attacked or called names here. The word “victim”, I believe, was used in an adjective form. Just as “judgmental” and “smugness” were.

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[JoB]

new resident…

I am not sure what part of the responsible choices my brothers made you didn’t hear.

my brother who will be forced to retire from the police department remodeled his house. He is not on disability… but i am sure you can understand that someone with a lung that collapses if twisted wrong probably shouldn’t be chasing perpetrators down the street any more. He will retire at the regular retirement age with full retirement benefits after serving 25+ years.

My other brother did a lot worse than throwing his back out… and yes, he was finally retired from the fire dept… originally on medical benefits and then on full retirement because he was no longer physically capable of doing his job and had reached retirement age… and by the way, had earned his full retirement benefits.

Neither brother wanted to retire. They both loved their jobs. They both intended to work into their 60s.. they will both find something else to do with their time because they like to work. They work harder than most people i know.

Whether my brothers work wasn’t the issue. Health insurance was.

Both got a wake up call on what their retirement health insurance now covers. Both brothers have serious enough medical conditions to cause any private insurance they could get to be prohibitively expensive… not to mention that either of their conditions would be pre-existing conditions and would not be covered. So, no, they can’t just go out and buy better insurance.

Both will be spending considerable money out of pocket for medical care that they expected to be covered by reasonably expensive health insurance… which by the way, they continue to purchase.

Is there some reason that you are having troubles understanding the basics? I thought i was perfectly clear in my post.

So, no… it seems that even republicans… even policeman and firemen who risked their lives daily to protect the rest of us… no wimps there… are not immune from the judgements of people who don’t even want to acknowledge that there is a problem, let alone try to figure out how to fix it.

Shame on you for implying that these men are not doing all they can.

You think they should just go get a job at Starbucks and that would solve the problem. How uninformed. Please explain to me how you expect the basic health insurance that Starbucks carries for it’s part time employees to help anyone with a pre-existing medical condition cover the actual cost of their health care? That is, if Starbucks would even hire them once they discovered the medical condition.

It is not enough to have health insurance.. you actually need health insurance that gives you some coverage for your health problems.

We pay more for health care in the United states than any other developed country… i think i heard 17% of GDP as opposed to 10-12%. and by any outcome measure of health, we don’t get our money’s worth. we were recently ranked 37th in the world for health outcome measures.

What about this can’t you hear? Health Insurance isn’t available for everyone… no matter what they pay. Even with “good” health insurance… individuals do not get the health care they and their employers pay for. We are not getting good value from our health care dollar. And it’s not just individuals. The entire country does not get what it pays for.

The truth about American health care is there if you simply go look for it. Don’t take my word for it.. go look it up.

Spiraling health costs cause more bankruptcies than any other event.. including natural disasters. We pay more and get less for our health dollar than any other developed country in the world.

And you don’t think this needs to be fixed? You think this is just some partisan bickering… a bunch of people who aren’t willing to be accountable for themselves whining?

Sorry. It just isn’t true.

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[JoB]

oh.. and new resident.. i don’t think jan will mind my telling you that she started off in the US armed services… so she didn’t start with poor career choices.

and she has started a second… or third career after raising her family at an age when most people look forward to retirement…

she did the right things and it still didn’t help her health benefits much.

Have some respect.

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[JanS]

House..”I won’t respond to Jan in a public fourmn out of respect..I’ll reserve it for when we are face to face.” so…that means that we’re really going to meet face to face at some point? hehe…won’t that be fun…I’ll probably bring JoB along ;-)

JoB…thanks for the kind words. In our world there are many stages…we have good ones, bad ones, have ups and downs…we all make choices, good or bad, that we (mostly/should) take responsibility for. None of us are immune…and I suspect that some will find this out later in life when some of their decisions come back to haunt them. I didn’t/don’t have a crystal ball. We all work with what we have, and try our best. I also know when arguing a point won’t make any difference, because it’s no longer about the point itself, and what you say won’t make a bit of difference, because you’re not being heard, and won’t change anyone’s mind.

Whether or not I get New Res’s respect is not so important to me, I don’t think. Of course, in general we all would like others to think well of us, but…I respect me…and “victim” is not in my vocabulary.

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[JoB]

ok… Jan

so i should have said….have some respect for your elders… or some such nonsense.

And you are right… it is a waste of breath to try to tell truth to people who are invested in not hearing it. i just got a little testy.

After all i gave them some nice palatable Republican examples about health care insurance and health care not being what it should and next thing you know there are insinuations that these are just some jerks feeding off the public trough.

Ok, they have the misfortune to be related to me… but they are the republicans i know most intimately and i have a whole family of republican examples out there. And they are as far from feeling sorry for themselves or feeling victimized as you can get.

it’s simple breach of contract to them and they think we ought to fix it.

but, you know. if the republicans who post disrespectfully met any of us in the real world they would think we are the nicest people… at least on most days.. because we are.

if they knew what we do quietly for others they would be in awe of what we are able to do in spite of our illness. heck, they might even admire and respect us and speak respectfully to us…

until they found out we are democrats… bleeding heart liberal democrats… and that we actually expect them to back up their statements with things like examples and facts.

ok.. so maybe i am still feeling testy ;-)

maybe i should go soak my head again? didn’t work much last time.. but there is always hope:)

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[JanS]

“if they knew what we do quietly for others they would be in awe of what we are able to do in spite of our illness. heck, they might even admire and respect us and speak respectfully to us…

until they found out we are democrats… bleeding heart liberal democrats… and that we actually expect them to back up their statements with things like examples and facts.”

I have a client whose son goes to a local private high school here. She recently was bombarded with e-mails from the father of her son’s best friend, who is a staunch republican, all bad mouthing the democratic candidates. The son came to visit my client, and said some really nasty things about democrats in front of her, assuming that she was just as conservative as they were (this is a church based private school, somewhat conservative – and , of course, he was just mouthing what he heard at home). She turned and told him that he should be careful what he says, that she’s Democrat. He looked totally surprised, never expecting it, and…now the father doesn’t even look at her at school sports functions, etc…she finds it rather hilarious, really.

Testy…yes…I get that way, too. Please don’t soak your head too much…hehe…there are much better ways to take care of it…chocolate?

Oh…BTW…the parents are Republicans, and I don’t discuss politics much with them. My dad (almost 83), thinks all the candidates are worthless, and that we’re all doomed :)

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[Anonymous]

Job.. never meant to make you upset. I know that I’ve been offered suggestions on this site by people that seemed very insensitive and have been offended. You and Jan are right. I don’t know her brothers or you two. What I wrote was merely a suggestion. Something else to look at. I never implied that Jan made poor career choices. She questioned mine and I simply explained that my career choice was, in fact, made with health care in mind.

Just so you know, if you were ever to meet me face to face, you would think I was the nicest person and you too would be in awe of what I quietly do for others.

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[Anonymous]

Also, Job, I do admire and respect both you and Jan. Not that I know really anything about you, but I respect your writing and your perspective. I can respect someone’s opinions without agreeing with them. True, I have debated my own opinions against yours, but only for the sake of debate. I’ve never been nasty (one remark I made seemed to bother you, but it was humor that didn’t carry over… I have a dry sense of humor). Anyways, we are not all like-minded and that’s ok.

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[Anonymous]

theHouse said Complaining does you no good…only action helps! I don’t hear complaining from anyone but you. You seem very concerned with how “libs” don’t do enough for themselves and want to ruin your way of life. Everyone else seems very committed to taking action to better our country, their own lives and each others. Currently that consists of political action. You can’t even claim that. You’re casting a protest vote for someone you don’t even like just to avoid a democrat in office. Total cop out. You’re not even practicing your own convictions.

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[Author]

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