- This topic has 57 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 1 month ago by JanS.
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January 23, 2017 at 10:15 am #871467
PLSParticipantHereās an exercise for all of us.
Imagine the headlines on the first Wednesday morning of November read āClinton winsā instead of the way they did. To make it even more appropriate, imagine Trump had garnered 3,000,000 more votes yet Clinton had somehow secured the 46th lowest electoral college margin in history.
Itās Bizarro world, all is upside down.
What would things be like today?
Peaceful and calm with the Trump crowd quietly accepting their loss and moving on in unity with a Clinton administration? A smiling Republican Congress standing ready to work together to move American forward?
Seriously? Come on.
Trump supporters would be up in arms ā hell, theyād be out in the street WITH arms. Theyād be stomping around and firing into the air like Yosemite Sam, screaming about rigged elections and voting fraud, demanding recounts. Inauguration weekend would undoubtedly have seen protests and marches of their own. And Clinton supporters would be saying ājust accept itā and āletās move forward.ā So Clinton supporters should not wretch so much when they hear that today because theyād be asking for the same thing in Bizarro world. Similarly, Trump supporters should give some slack about Womxnās March and other protests because theyād be making much more noise and chaos, guaranteed.
The long and short of it is that we need to get used to this battle. We are a divided country right now. Deeply and nearly evenly divided. The worst possible situation as it doesnāt allow for significant coalition or compromise. There will not be unity or alignment if dogmatic platforms and polarizing candidates are put forward. If it remains āUs vs Themā it is not realistic to expect unity on political agendas. The internet exacerbates the problem ā anonymous distance erodes our country like a raging river through a canyon. Dogma and the internet are potentially fatal flaws for our country. Without hard, face to face work to create bridges, compromises that can mitigate these shadowy divides, we will go down in flames eventually.
Look at much older democracies like Greece, France, Britain, Italy and others where elections are serious dog fights. The genteel happy elections of our mistaken memories will not be seen in the near future. For a century we were able to coalesce around a common enemy (Axis powers, Soviet Union) with clear and definable external threats (WWI, WWII, Cold War). Todayās terrorist networks are too amorphous and Russia and China, while antagonistic, do not create a clear and present enough danger to generate the overarching internal bond necessary to ignore our countryās political divisions. As much as President Trump would like us all to say the words āradical Islamic terrorismā even that wonāt reach all American hearts like the Nazis or Stalin did. The scary part is heāll have find some scarier, more imminent enemy to keep the fear alive.
While we cannot expect unity around President Trump and should stop asking for it, it is realistic to expect decency in our interactions with each other. It is realistic to expect unity on our founding principles of freedom and equality. Like the marriage books say ā itās not that you fight, itās how you fight. Those households who fight with malice, who are selfish and lack empathy, will not long stand.
If we do not find some common ground, some foundation to stand on going forward, history tells us that something will be created for us (think Great Depression, Pearl Harbor, Cuban Missile Crisis, 9/11, etc) and it wonāt be pleasant. In my more dire moments I look in the mirror of history and see the last time an old white guy lost the popular vote but won the EC. We saw 9/11, then a trumped up invasion of Iraq followed by the economic death spiral of 2007. What, me worry? But heck, even that didn’t align us and in fact tore us further asunder.
A good first step is to start talking nicely to each other. Please.
- This topic was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by PLS.
January 23, 2017 at 6:00 pm #871521
redblackParticipantwelcome, PLS. good commentary, and i largely agree.
one part of your post caught my eye, and i think it’s at the crux of the matter here:
Russia and China, while antagonistic, do not create a clear and present enough danger to generate the overarching internal bond necessary to ignore our countryās political divisions.
as i see it, trump is correct regarding trade. laissez-faire economics has gutted our country’s manufacturing sectors. reaganomics removed tariffs and allowed american corporations to globalize, ignore labor rights in third-world countries, avoid or evade american taxation, skirt our environmental laws, etc., etc.
now, in order for the average american to agree with those assertions, he/she has to admit that reducing taxes on the wealthiest americans and their banks, hedge funds, and corporations is at direct odds with their own self interest.
now what?
i’m sorry, but as long as they keep telling me i’m a socialist and won’t believe that i don’t want big government to own the means of production and distribution, we’re going to fight. that is the argument of the 1% that owns everything, and they’re using the uninformed working poor to carry that argument for them. because they, the top income earners, don’t have “the numbers,” they buy media and control the debate and its terms.
funny how a little phrase like “progressive taxation” brings out red scare tactics, ain’t it?
January 24, 2017 at 12:27 pm #871576
captainDaveParticipantPLS: You seem to justify leftist violence by concluding that Trump supporters would be violent if Hillary had won. What is your evidence of this? Leftist regimes throughout history have consistently resorted to violence against their conservative counterparts. Where was all the widespread right-wing violence when Obama was elected twice? If Hillary got elected, there probably would have been a mass exodus of political refugees from the US as the left would have immediately started cracking down on dissidents–starting with curtailing the “alternative media” as proposed by Hillary.
Many of our ancestors came to the US escaping leftist totalitarianism in other parts of the world. My family escaped the oppression of the Ottoman Empire. When the left dominates, most people don’t fight, they just leave. That’s why Seattle no longer reflects the rest of the US. There has been a mass exodus of conservatives out of the City over the last several decades because of leftist domination in our bureaucracy. With only 8% of the local vote going to Trump, Seattle is only second to Detroit and DC in leftist unity. That fact alone should raise red flags for future economic stability.
There won’t be any common ground between the progressive left and the rest of America because its core tenants are based on a completely opposing ideology. Fortunately, the vast majority of people don’t really support the ultimate goal of socialism. Over time, you will find a diminishing contingent of support for the left as people are exposed to the truth–thanks to the efforts of non-leftist media.
RedBlack: When a person believes that workers should collectively own and control the means of production through centralized government, they are advocating marxism. All marxists are socialists. “What looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, is probably is a duck.”
January 24, 2017 at 3:26 pm #871593
JoBParticipantPLS..
i don’t think we are as cleanly divided as it appears..in the first place.. if only 60% of the people voted and Trump got less than half of those.. Trumps’s mandate stands at under 30% of the population… last i looked his approval ratings reflected that…
When you look at issues as opposed to political platforms.. most metrics find us far more united than divided… it’s only when you throw in the political buzzwords.. like obamacare that opinion divides… and suddenly there is an us who are entitled to freedom and equality and a them who should have to somehow earn it.
what has “the left” up in arms now is the lack of inclusion in those core principles of freedom and equality… until they include the words “for all” they have little meaning…
a fact which has been reflected in the opening salvos from both the Trump administration and the Republican leadership in the House and Senate.
i think it’s very easy to be all gentlemanly about this fight until you realize just how much skin you actually have in this fight… when your ethnic background.. your sex.. your sexual orientation… your immigration status .. increasingly your political status.. all mean that you don’t have the same rights as others the discussion becomes less academic.
In Washington DC this last weekend.. when some of the people who were demonstrating against the inauguration started breaking windows.. the DC police herded everyone on the street in the area into a holding group and charged all of them with felony rioting… even those sporting press credentials.
I hope the resulting litigation becomes so expensive for them that their example deters other police departments from doing the same.. but the current trend tells me that my hope is likely misplaced since the same tactic was used at standing rock and few of those charges have been dismissed.
i reject the idea that i should have to “fight nice” with people who think they not only have the right to tell me what i can and can’t do with my body but demand that i speak to them in a respectful way… because they won?
this isn’t a sporting event and those are my rights they are willing to sign away…
I refuse to put a smiley face on that.and yes.. i remember what happened in the last similar election and what transpired after..
we are in for a bumpy ride .. but the fact is that we are in for a bumpy ride whether we go along and get along or not… if we do’t fight for ourselves there will be noone left to fight for those who couldn’t recognize their own best interests if they bit them in the proverbial behind…if we don’t fight now there won’t be a democracy left to fight for.and yes.. i sincerely believe that.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by JoB.
January 24, 2017 at 4:55 pm #871603
redblackParticipant“RedBlack: When a person believes that workers should collectively own and control the means of production through centralized government, they are advocating marxism. All marxists are socialists.”
calling you out again, dave. different thread, same subject.
quote any of my posts where i advocate government controlling the means of production and/or distribution.
take your time. i’ll wait.
January 24, 2017 at 5:37 pm #871606
JayDeeParticipantYou all act like it is a zero sum game. It’s worse than that. Just like Trump Labor Secretary candidate said about robots:
āTheyāre always polite, they always upsell, they never take a vacation, they never show up late, thereās never a slip-and-fall, or an age, sex or race discrimination case,ā said Andy Puzder, chief executive of CKE Restaurants Inc., in an interview with Business Insider earlier this year. CKE owns, operates and franchises restaurant chains including Carlās Jr. and Hardeeās. end quote.
Even Amazon is trying to automate the Stop ‘n’ Shop.
The lost jobs are not like fishes swimming in the sea–they will never be caught again. Most of these jobs are gone: Travel agent, bookseller, realtor, Boeing mechanic (unless he fixes robots gone soon enough), Detroit/midwest auto mechanic. Both Demos and Republicans are facing this same structural shift. Protectionism won’t save jobs, repealing Ex-Im Bank won’t save jobs.
Someday we will need to consider paying people an income (however euphemized) just to maintain a consumer economy because the 1% can only consume so much before the peasants start revolting (meant humorously sort of).
- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by JayDee.
January 24, 2017 at 6:47 pm #871612
captainDaveParticipantredblack: I don’t mind at all that you have changed your position on socialism. I think it’s wonderful that you now support capitalism. I’ll even pretend that we had no previous contention on the subject.
JayDee: Automation has been happening since the invention of the wheel. Technological advancement is a benefit to everyone because it leverages human capability. The cost/price/benefit of technology under capitalism is self-governing. In other words, market pricing adjusts to market demand. Automated goods production becomes cheaper in relation to human services. Robot-made cars will give you the ability to spend more on your home, vacations, or psychiatric services.
https://mises.org/blog/curse-labor-saving-machinery-nothing-new
January 24, 2017 at 6:48 pm #871613
captainDaveParticipantJoB: You imply that 70% don’t support Trump. Rasmussen repots that 57% of likely voters approve of Trumps agenda. Are you counting children and people who chose not to vote? How do you know what they want? A mandate has only to do with people who voted. You are also forgetting about the more than 1000 seats lost by the Democrats–leaving your party with the lowest degree of control in more than 90 years. I call that a mandate for the good guys.
I don’t agree that most people are united on issues (sans political labels). For instance, I don’t oppose Obamacare just because it has a black man’s name on it–I voted for Obama the first time around. I oppose Obamacare because I don’t want the government making decisions about my healthcare–Just like you don’t want the government telling you that you can’t have abortions whenever you like. But the premise of those two issues are completely different. One is about self preservation, the other is about murder for convenience 90% of the time.
I don’t think there is any middle ground between those who want equal rights for all and those who want special rights for specific liberal voting blocks because these are completely opposing ideas.
Advocating for rioters to get away violent crime is all great until it’s your own property that gets destroyed. One of the limos torched in DC belonged to a muslim immigrant. His livelihood that was destroyed by your bigoted heroes. Why don’t you think he should have the right to sue rioters for damages?
I certainly don’t expect devout leftists to be very happy campers over the next couple years as the socialist platform continues to disintegrate away. I think it’s going to get real tough for you guys and I think there will be a lot of lawless retaliation.
I do agree that there will be a bumpy road ahead. Obama spent us past the point of no return. A major debt crisis is imminent. All the superfluous social causes will become mute when people become more concerned about basic survival. Even liberals are not going to care much about skin color, gender, sexual preference and all the other political labels you guys use when they have to work at putting food on the table. Fortunately, I think Trump can recover the US economy pretty quickly with the principals of capitalism.
January 24, 2017 at 8:05 pm #871616
JanSParticipantDave…they rounded up people who were just walking on the street and had nothing to do with any “protest”..they just happened to be there. Yet…felony charges. And…whatever happened to the first Amendment of the Constitution..arresting people with press credentials, too? Seems that freedom of the press is in danger here…they can’t pick and choose what parts of the constitution they are OK with, and ignore the rest.
January 24, 2017 at 8:07 pm #871617
JanSParticipantoh, and…what JoB said…
January 24, 2017 at 8:49 pm #871618
JoBParticipantCaptain Dave
” A mandate has only to do with people who voted.”
by your own standard.. Trump has no mandate.
and i think you should take a closer look at his approval ratingsas for the rest of whatever it was you said..
as usual.. it was full of unsupported statements .. statements i am too tired tonight to take the time to take apart…- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by JoB.
January 24, 2017 at 9:08 pm #871620
captainDaveParticipantJanS: Don’t make excuses for the rampant violence. If you do that, we will not have a civil society and many, many people will be unjustly hurt. The police are not the courts. Their job is to keep the peace. Those who were truly innocent (but too dumb not to stay away from the criminal rioters) will have their day in court.
JoB: “The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday shows that 57% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trumpās job performance.”:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/trump_administration/prez_track_jan24It doesn’t really matter anyway. I cast my vote and Trump is doing just what he said he would do. Let the good times roll.
January 25, 2017 at 1:32 am #871656
JanSParticipantDear Dave…you can have all the opinions that you want…but you need to read more than Breitbart. I made no excuse for the VIOLENT offenders, and you damned well know it. If you actually paid attention, yes, innocent people who happened to be in the vicinity and couldn’t extricate themselves from those who were violent, and members of the press with press credentials are now facing felony charges, even after they showed the DC cops their credentials. You believe whatever alternative facts you want to…you’re entitles to an opinion. As always, you are NOT entitled to your own facts, and you are NOT entitled to put words into my or anyone else’s mouth that weren’t there. Eff your trying to tell me that I advocated violence, and those ideas will hurt people and society…that’s lunacy. Do not act all high and mighty about that. The police job is to uphold the law…not arrest innocent people. They are not stupid. And if you truly read about the violence, or if you’ve ever been in that part of DC…yes, I lived there at one point, hung out at 15th and Pennsylvania Ave, actually, not far from the MLK riots…those streets are super crowded with all sorts of people. The rioters came on suddenly, and people, innocent people, had no warning to get out of the way. They weren’t dumb…they were doing what people do on any given day, going about their business, or to the inauguration. So…hey…believe what you want, but please, if you’re going to say I said something, copy and paste in quotes…or keep it to yourself.
Trump is a puppet…he will screw up, or the powers that be who wanted him in there to do what they couldn’t do under the previous president, will stand by his side while he does all this crap, and they will get rid of him under some pretense and put Pence in there with Ryan as VP…that’s what they wanted anyway. And they will screw you over, too…never doubt that.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by JanS.
January 25, 2017 at 5:28 am #871658
miwsParticipantJanuary 25, 2017 at 6:03 am #871660
redblackParticipantdave: i’ve never changed my position on socialism. i’ve been posting here for 10 years, i think, and it’s all archived.
but i will admit that i once told you that any business that steals should have its assets seized as the severest form of punishment.
i also believe that any business that hires undocumented workers should have its charter revoked, and their owners should be barred from doing business in the u.s. for the rest of their lives.
(psst! hey, righties. you won’t need a big, stupid wall if you take away the jobs and make crime unprofitable.)
and, no, the market can’t be trusted to regulate itself. you know what cullusion and price-fixing are, right? how about usury? there are laws against those practices precisely because they occurred the last time we trusted the market to regulate itself.
what do you know? the big players wormed their way into government (yes, dave, both major parties) and are trying to undo those laws again.
are you gonna stop them, or are you just gonna stand there with your [expletive deleted] in your hand?
January 25, 2017 at 6:23 am #871664
JoBParticipantif Captain Dave’s rhetoric is any indication
he is going to cheer
because somewhere in his alternative universe he believes he will profit
or at the least that we will suffer- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by JoB.
January 25, 2017 at 3:43 pm #871753
JanSParticipantdear Redblack… your quote “and, no, the market canāt be trusted to regulate itself. you know what cullusion and price-fixing are, right? how about usury? there are laws against those practices precisely because they occurred the last time we trusted the market to regulate itself.”
until trump does away with those laws, too…edit..trump and his cohorts…
January 25, 2017 at 3:49 pm #871755
JanSParticipantRedblack..undocumented workers in companies? Yes…and how about those richy rich folk who have undocumented nannies, housekeepers, etc…what do we do about them?
January 25, 2017 at 4:15 pm #871759
redblackParticipantjan: it’s akin to slavery, isn’t it?
so, yes, slavery is illegal, and people who own the equivalent of modern day slaves should be dealt with severely.
what do we do with the slaves once the masters are jailed?
i really don’t know.
is it fair to grant them blanket citizenship, when there are tens of thousands in the queue who are trying to immigrate legally?
i don’t think it’s humane to automatically deport them to countries that they don’t really know, where they may be subjected to brutal treatment by those cultures.
what i do know is that knee-jerk xenophobic reactions are not the way to deal with the issue.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by redblack.
January 25, 2017 at 4:50 pm #871764
captainDaveParticipantredblack: In case you missed it, this election was essentially between the ideology of capitalism vs the ideology Socialism. It is illogical to say you oppose socialism while supporting socialist leadership.
Under your rule, would all shareholders of Amazon be barred from doing business in the US? Seems pretty harsh. It’s a done deal anyway. The wall is ordered as of today!
Yes, markets CAN regulate themselves when competition is present. 99% of the time, it is government regulation that causes monopolies to happen. Laws against price fixing and collusion are long established. Your fear of Trump eliminating basic functional laws is unfounded liberal hysteria. Trump won because ha was neither aligned with Democrat or Republican cronyism. So far, Trump is doing everything he said he will do, and it’s only Wednesday. At this rate, maybe Hillary will be in jail by next week?
JoB: With the way the stock market has gone, you guys are probably doing pretty well under Trump. So much for your dire predictions.
JanS: You do know that most undocumented nanny and housekeepers are employed by “richy rich” urban liberals, don’t you?
I would write more but “Big Joe” does a much better job explaining the issues:
January 26, 2017 at 1:03 am #871801
JanSParticipantcan you give us proof that most undocumented nannies and housekeepers are employed by rich urban liberals? Links to that proof, please. No? You don’t have that? They you know what you can do with your opinion, false fact.
Oh, and did you see where Steve Bannon is registered to vote in two states? New York and Florida?. Oh, yeah…and Dear Mr. Munchkin, sorry, Mnuchin of Goldmann Sachs is, too… yep…fine, fine men…voter fraud? Clean your own effing house. Yes, I realize it is NOT illegal to de doubly registered like that, you just can’t vote in both places. However, one of The Don’s latest tweets “”I will be asking for a major investigation into VOTER FRAUD, including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal and even, those registered to vote who are dead (and many for a long time). Depending on results, we will strengthen up voting procedure,” the President wrote in a pair of consecutive tweets.” Guessing you are fine with that…
you are too laughable…sorry, buttercup…was that too vile for you?
- This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by JanS.
January 26, 2017 at 8:17 pm #871878
redblackParticipant“It is illogical to say you oppose socialism while supporting socialist leadership.”
what socialist leadership do i support?
i believe in democracy, and the only leadership i support is that which supports my ideals. i follow no one.
go burn your straw man elsewhere, chief.
January 26, 2017 at 8:27 pm #871879
redblackParticipantno, dave, it’s lack of government regulation that allows abominable corporate behaviors; for example: not covering faithful medical insurance ratepayers for “pre-existing conditions.” in what alternate-fact universe would government regulation cause insurance companies to not cover ratepayers?
and how does oppressive government regulation cause comcast or centurylink to buy competing networks and consolidate their holdings? how does oppressive government regulation create the condition that i have exactly two (2) sh!tty and overly-expensive choices for broadband connectivity?
econ 101, boss: unregulated capitalism allows the big fish to eat all of the little ones. that is their nature. it’s codified in their charters. profit and market share trump altruism and service to consumers.
it’s the american way.
i’m just asking for a little intellectual honesty here, dave. but based on your responses, i’m increasingly skeptical that you can handle the task.
i’ll grant you this, though: if you can prove that anonymous “amazon shareholders” are flaunting payroll taxes so that they can have cheap nannies and landscapers, i’ll be right behind you with a torch and a pitchfork.
but if it turns out that the onus is on the “small business owner” who actually employs illegals, lies about it, and contracts his/her services anyway, i’ll expect you to call said “entrepeneur” to account.
January 26, 2017 at 9:38 pm #871891
captainDaveParticipantJanS: I can give you direct proof If you want to go for a boat ride on Lake Washington. We can stop and you can ask them yourself. Limousine liberals love cheap foreign labor :)
It now looks like the voter fraud issue is going to be thoroughly investigated and liberals will be proven wrong again. Its just a matter of statistics. Lefties will be wishing they let sleeping dogs lie instead of pushing all that crap about Hillary’s giant fictitious popular vote win. It wasn’t Trump that forced this issue, it was the left. Chances are, when the numbers come out, it’s going to be another big let down for you guys. Be prepared.
And yes. I am just fine with that. The US is the only country in the world where people can vote without ID. That’s just an open door for mass corruption and fraud.
Don’t worry. You can be as vile as you want with me. I wouldn’t want to constrain your dialogue over political correctness now.
redblack: I was a fan of antitrust regulation for a long time. However, I now starting to question the idea a bit. Not that the government should be concerned about preventing monopolies, just that they should not be creating environments that make them happen in the first place.
When you only have a small number of big employers and a lot of people needing work, you invite abuse. There is no incentive for Mr. Big Corp to treat employees well when people don’t have much choice to work elsewhere. Back in the 1990’s Seattle had a lot more economic diversity than it does today. Employers bent over backwards to make employees happy. I know because I was a tech employer back then–it wasn’t easy to keep employees without providing top notch benefits and competitive pay.
If you make it difficult for entrepreneurs and investors to create new job options, then you are only going to have abusive giants that need to be regulated to behave–regulations that further insure that the monopolistic condition continues.
I keep saying you think like a marxist because you seem to never account for the positive worker benefits of market diversification and competition which is the hallmark of real capitalism. Your “Econ 101” is exactly what Karl Marx argued based on his observation of markets that were fraught with collusion, price fixing, government favoritism, and the influence of European oligarchies–not quite the same conditions we have in a constitutional republic.
I agree that there is a roll for government in keeping a fair markets, but the body of regulations we have now are wrong because they are about protecting centralized wealth rather than spreading prosperity.
The logical conclusion for healthcare will be to deregulate and let insurance companies compete, then provide government subsidies for high-risk/low-income people.
Your complaints about only having two inferior and expensive broadband choices is a direct result of overregulation to keep competitors out. If it was easy for people to start new networks, then the acquisition value wouldn’t be there. Consolidation happens when there is restricted opportunity to dominate. If there are lots of competitors popping up, then it becomes a fruitless game of whack-a-mole.
Obviously, there are exceptions and reasons to regulate some industries for various considerations. But today, EVERYTHING is regulated whether its needed or not.
January 27, 2017 at 6:12 am #871916
redblackParticipanttelecommunication regulations were written by big telecommunication companies, dave. we on the left want smaller players, and publicly-owned broadband that competes with comcast and centurylink. not a “government-run monopoly,” as i’m sure you’ll call it, but an incentive for self-regulated companies to keep their practices and pricing honest. current telecom laws prevent the public from owning any part of these utilities because this is their sandbox, and they (and their army of lawyers) guard it viciously.
similarly, big insurance, big banks, and big agriculture have written their own regulations which stifle competition and allow the biggest players to eat the little ones.
if you read these regulations, you’ll see that they give the “regulated” industries carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.
and just look at what big insurance asked trump to do this week: preexisting conditions are off the table again.
where’s that free market altruism and concern for providing the best product for the lowest cost? i’m not seeing it.
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