A good day to reflect on gun violence

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  • #603408

    DBP
    Member

    Here’s an article from the Times about a Central Area neighborhood’s response to the killing of Justin Ferrari, who was felled by a stray bullet as he was driving home.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018296586_prayervigil27m.html

    Typically, the article discusses everything BUT the problem of how ridiculously easy it is to get guns in this country.

    People mourn. They hold hands. They pray.

    Some talk about healing; some talk about racism.

    Few talk about realistic solutions to the problem of gun crime.

    On the bright side, I’m happy to see that at least one family there got it right. They brought chalk, and wrote “No Guns” on the sidewalk.

    ***************************************************************************************

    Which raises the question of where the punk who shot Justin Ferrari got that gun.

    A pawn shop?

    A gun show?

    The Internet?

    And why was it so easy?

    We’ll probably never know. And that’s a damn shame, because if we DID know, there’s a good chance this killing could have been prevented.

    Time for a national gun registry law.

    Write your Congresspeople.

    #759363

    kootchman
    Member

    We have a national handgun registry now. It didn’t stop this senseless act. It will be as it always has been. The law abiding will register. The dirtbags don’t. Do tell me how a law would have prevented this act?

    #759364

    JanS
    Participant

    the 48 hours from Friday evening to Sunday evening 9pm-9pm, was marked by a lot of gunfire in this city. Numerous people shot, shot at, injured, one death in the north end. And this is on top of Justin Ferrari. How many of those guns to we think even had a serial number on them?

    #759365

    miws
    Participant

    America: Where the Gubmint should be able to invade a woman’s uterus, but they better keep their hands off mah guhns!

    Mike

    #759366

    munchkin22
    Member

    And how would registering those guns have prevented any of the aforementioned crimes? It wouldn’t have. As Kootchman said, the dirtbags will always have guns. Illegal ones, stolen, whatever. You can’t legislate morality, whether it be guns or abortion.

    Why in the world would a law abiding gun owner want to divulge to a gov’t entity that he owns one. They know far too much about one’s private life already. What happened to freedom in this country?

    #759367

    casaboba
    Member

    In stating the obvious, laws work more effectively with “law abiding” citizens. Sadly, society at large has a small few who are NOT law abiding. Senseless death remains senseless.

    #759368

    coolie
    Member

    If this story was about a drunk driver who killed an innocent person walking the sidewalk with his parents and children, would we be having the same discussion about where the driver bought the car, who gave him his driver’s license and administered the test, or where and from whom he bought the booze? Would we be talking about more regulation in driver’s tests, car ownership, and alcohol purchases?

    What if he used a knife? Would we be asking the same questions about access to knives and clamping down on Bed Bath & Beyond for their impressive and shockingly easy to acquire 8″ knife collections?

    This is certainly a painful story and the circumstances are about as bad as anyone can imagine. The fact that a gun was used is immaterial. Keep the same story and replace the word “gun” with any other object and it would be just as bad. This shouldn’t be held up as a reason for more laws that provide the illusion of security any more than we would think it’s reasonable to institute more laws for buying cars or chef’s knives. It would be shockingly easy for me to get drunk and go for a joyride right now and I’m sure it would end tragically for some innocent bystander, and shockingly easy for me to pull out my kitchen knives and wreak havoc on the neighborhood. At some point we have to look to the people who are committing these acts. You’ll never stop that either. Humans are animals, nothing more, nothing less, regardless of what bible-thumpers believe.

    No, I’m not an NRA member.

    #759369

    kootchman
    Member

    Geez miws… that is shocking news! Show me one state, one law in effect, that gives the government the right to invade the privacy of a uterus? Just one. Anywhere. Surely you have inside knowledge..cause like attempts to circumvent the second amendment… I expect the vigilance and common sense of most of fellows citizens to prevail. Far as I know, only the state and federal government has done such things.. and they sure didn’t do it with the consent of the governed, or by any legislation, they just did it. No, it was done by “progressives” and their fascination with eugenics. But that was corrected… we’ve been down that path with progressives and will never return. You might read a bit about Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. Talk about invasion of the uterus!!!!! She was all for removing them, let alone taking a little peek with a sonogram. Cutting off the testes too. In fact she was convinced blacks were an inferior race too and for societal preservation should be encouraged to not breed. The government that governs least, governs best.

    #759370

    Harmonic
    Member

    100% agree with Kootchman. The folks that commit these gun violence crimes are not deterred in the least by whether or not guns are “illegal”.

    It seems most are felons where it IS illegal to carry.

    #759371

    miws
    Participant

    Ummmmmm….kootch…..I didn’t say that it was a law in any State (yet).

    I was referring to this.

    Mike

    #759372

    munchkin22
    Member

    Mike, you drinking kool-aid for breakfast again? What flavor this morning?

    #759373

    miws
    Participant

    Coffee flavored…. ;-)

    Mike

    #759374

    munchkin22
    Member

    Yummmmm. And did you have some “donut holes” with it?

    #759375

    miws
    Participant

    Looked around, but didn’t see any…

    #759376

    odroku
    Member

    When you can offer a good comparison on the value of guns to the greater society relative to cars, you can make those ridiculous comparisons as to how they should be considered equally when contributing to the death of an innocent. I’ve never heard anyone give a compelling argument as to the societal value of guns other than as a ridiculous exercise of a constitutional right, as if that in and of itself had some real-life merit.

    Oh, that and the fantastical thing where, “just wait until some day a legal gun owner saves your life” and what have you.

    Please…automotive transportation is main component of our economical success as a nation. Guns? Primarily a political pinata.

    #759377

    dbsea
    Member

    So how do we get to the point where the scumbags and irresponsible clowns have their guns taken away? And only the law abiding and responsible have them? Or at least how the heck do we get closer to this? Short of the police searching every home / car / backyard how do you get the illegal guns off the streets? And do we ever hear our “leaders” seriously discuss this?

    And on a side note, read the 2nd ammendment and come away with what you want. Because it’s not only vague in its wording it’s also out-dated by a couple centuries. I think we need a real discussion on the purpose of gun ownership in this country. Not to have an agenda that says everyone should have one or nobody should have one. But whether people should have them, why and under what terms.

    #759378

    clark5080
    Participant

    Ok so I think we need to look at how hard it is to get a gun in Chicago text below.

    Chicago, Illinois, has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Illinois requires all gun owners to have a Firearm Owner’s Identification Card (FOID) and Chicago requires registration of all long guns such as shotguns and rifles. Handgun ownership is prohibited in Chicago. There are no permits for concealed carry as it is prohibited across Illinois, as is open carry, except for authorized law enforcement officials and retired law enforcement.

    Other People Are Reading

    Fill out the Firearm Owner’s Identification Card application. The form is available online at the Illinois State Government website or in person at firearm stores. Have your state ID or driver’s license handy to fill out the form completely. The FOID application costs $10 and it can take 30 days to be processed. The Illinois Department of State Police decides whether the application is approved or not. Most rejections occur due to felony, illegal drug or domestic violence charges.

    Fill out a sworn application for registration after buying a rifle or shotgun, but before taking possession of the firearm. Application information includes your name, home and work addresses, Social Security number, the gun information (caliber, model, manufacturer and serial number), proof of meeting Chicago registration eligibility, and two recent photos. Submit the application to the Chicago superintendent of police.

    Then look at how many shootings there compared to here recently. Violent holiday weekend claims at least 10 lives in Chicago according to MSNBC and I think over 180 murders since the first of the year. Kinda seems that gun control really doesn’t work as the bad guy’s will still get them

    #759379

    kootchman
    Member

    odruku.. allow me. when the Japanese Imperial Army was contemplating all manner of things, including assaults on west coast aviation plants..and attacking the Aleuts, Admiral Yamamoto said it would be sheer folly…. having been a student at Harvard, “there are more guns in America than their are blades of grass”. We acrually had a higher standard of living than the average British citizen… but, we were armed. We purchased our liberty with our arms..the average Brit was disarmed. You wouldn’t even be a nation but for the right to bear arms. When is gun violence most prevalent? When we have repressive alcohol laws, a little progressive social engineering, and there was money to made by controlling territory, repressive drug laws that drive pot to $280 oz… and controlling drug territory is lucrative … take a play book from the libertarians…what I do to myself is my business..when it is contraband and illegal..prices rise and demand doesn’t abate. The perfect storm, Drug laws underpin gun violence. Second, I don;t think the government wants to try and take them. we will for certain fight back. Yes… I said it. There are over 40 – 75 million gun owners in the USA. and thankfully the federal and state governments are not quite sure how many and who has them That’s a dog ya don’t want to kick.

    We aren’ sheep and will not surrender them. Gaze your eyes today to Syria… hmmm? Assad would be dead and gone today if the Syrian people were as well armed as US citizens. Here we are in the 21st century and we should be as well armed as the political contrivances that seek to restrain us. Glad you have never had to defend yourself with a weapon…I have. Predators are not very particular about their prey.

    #759380

    DBP
    Member

    Thanks for the polite comments, all.

    I can see that there is widespread misunderstanding of how a gun registry would work, and more importantly, why it would work.

    Let’s be clear. The idea of a gun registry is not to scare the fear of the Law into criminals or the mentally ill. That is a fool’s errand, as many gun rights supporters have pointed out.

    The idea of a gun registry is to prevent otherwise law-abiding gun owners from selling or giving a gun to the wrong person.

    With a gun registry, gun owners will be compelled to help authorities enforce laws that are ALREADY on the books. So instead of having a few hundred FBI agents trying to enforce gun purchasing laws AFTER the fact, we’ll have potentially millions of highly motived citizens working on the same task, one gun purchase at a time.

    At the same time, we’d be closing numerous existing gun purchase loopholes in one stroke, and we’d be scaring all the unethical gun dealers right out of the business.

    Here’s how it would work:

    1) Every time a firearm is bought new, traded, or resold, the transaction would be logged into a national registery with information from both buyer and seller. At that time, the gun’s serial number would be recorded AND a ballistics test would be done and then scanned into the database.

    2) If a firearm is stolen, the owner would be required to report that.

    3) The registry would be paid for by fees imposed on the buyer and/or seller. It would be mandatory (obviously), it would be national in scope, and there would be incentives for other countries to cooperate in its enforcement.

    ***************************************************************************************

    Now here are some enforcement scenarios:

    1) Mr. K is a gun fancier. On average, he buys three weapons a year, trades one at a gun show, and sells one to a trustworthy friend, leaving a net gain of one gun each year in his collection. All purchases and trades are registered. No problems.

    2) Gun Show Bob makes a somewhat sloppy effort to do a background check on all his customers, and he occasionally lets one slip through the cracks altogether. Two of the undocumented guns he sold this year were used to commit felonies — not by the people Bob sold the guns to, but by other people down the line.

    Too bad for Bob. Using ballistics tests, the guns are traced back to him as being the one who bought them from the manufacturer, and since Bob didn’t have a valid registry entry for either gun sale, he gets his business licence yanked and a hefty fine. If it’s a second offense, he does guaranteed jail time.

    Think this’ll be a deterrent for dealers like Bob? Hellz yah!

    Bob’s not a thug himself. He’s a law-abiding citizen who’s got a family to feed. He doesn’t want to mess that up, so he’ll comply with the law, even if he doesn’t like it.

    3) Like Mr. K, Mr. L has a big gun collection. Unlike Mr. K, though, Mr. L doesn’t lock his guns up. Every year, one or two of his guns get “stolen.” Some of them might end up being used in crimes, but shucks, that’s not Mr. L’s fault, is it?

    Before the gun registry law, there was no way to trace the stolen guns back to Mr. L, so it was impossible for police to even investigate whether these guns were actually being stolen, or whether Mr. L was acting as a fence for criminals. However, AFTER the gun registry is in place, the “stolen” guns can easily be traced back to Mr. L.

    Does this mean that police can now easily prove that Mr. L is lying when he says the guns were stolen? No. However, it DOES mean that authorities will now be able to keep an eye on Mr. L, and he’ll know that.

    Moreover, if Mr. L keeps mysteriously losing guns to “theft,” authorities can always order him to keep his guns better secured under penalty of losing his right to own them.

    ***************************************************************************************

    Now do you see how a registry would work? The intent is not to reform criminals or even to frustrate them in their ability to obtain guns. The intent is to tighten up on the trade and sanction careless or unethical gun owners for allowing their guns to fall into the wrong hands.

     

    Questions?

     

    #759381

    DBP
    Member

    Today’s Headline News

        Guns more than gangs are fueling city’s violence, police say.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2018310111_policebriefing30m.html

    Deputy Police Chief Nick Metz and Assistant Chief for Operations Paul McDonagh said that while gang activity has played a role in the 20 percent jump in homicides this year, the common denominator is guns.

    “A person who has a gun is more likely to use a gun,” said Metz after the weekly council briefing.

    So that means that . . . the easier it is for people to get guns, the more gun crime there will be.

    Whoa. Now that’s a shocker!

    Hmm. [Scratching head.] Wonder what the solution is.

    More patrols maybe?

    Neighborhood outreach?

    Social spending?

    No wait. I know! I know!

    Slower bullets.

     

     

    #759382

    kootchman
    Member

    DPB.

    First, take a good look at your current Department of Justice. They set up fast and furious for the sole purpose of discrediting legal firearm sales. Their intents was to run thousands of straw purchases through licensed firearms dealers, trace them to Mexico and then cry “gotcha”. DoJ as you well know, is the head agency of the FBI. So where are those thousands of guns, some were high velocity, military caliber with armor piercing capability? Do you want to register your firearms with liberals determined to make us a docile, kept, collection of sheep?

    What if citizen Bob does have his guns stolen? Are they going to martial a statewide task force to find it? Will it deter anything? There are 160,000 registered firearms dealers. Gimme a break, the government can’t keep track of billions of dollars of Medicare fraud. what are their chances of finding a $350 Taurus 9 mm?

    Far as I am concerned, if you aren’t a felon, you should be able to buy any damn weapon you please. Criminals can buy imported AK-47’s by the container load. If they are trafficking tons of coke, smack, marijuana, and humans, guns should be no problem. Point of fact, no US gun maker manufactures AK’s..they are all over the street….the higher the restrictions and obstacle, the higher the price of the weapons. If it is illegal and in demand, they will get them. Hell, Al Quaida will have a new revenue stream.

    Drive it underground… and prices will rise. Perfect a new revenue stream for the “new” organized crime syndicates.

    The last person I would trust with a national gun database is this government, Nope.. it won’t happen. Fortunately, we have the NRA and the majority of homes own guns. Chain gang for felons in possession? Do it.

    Gangs have guns to protect illegal commercial activity. I have a better idea, take the assault weapons, grenade launchers, automatic shotguns away from the police… they are killing as many as the street gangs.

    #759383

    JimmyG
    Member

    It’s not Uncle Sams business which guns I own or how many I have. Nor is it my neighbors business if I am armed or not.

    A gun registry does nothing to stop gun violence; criminals will steal them, use straw men to purchase them, or import them on their own.

    One answer to gun violence is a total and complete crackdown on all gun crimes. As it is now the bangers out shooting each other (and the occasional innocent bystander) know there’s a high probability they’ll not be caught. Or if they are, the system will deal with them with a small slap on the wrist.

    Second, stop hamstringing the Seattle Police by not allowing them to do their jobs. All the DOJ bull@h#& with their threat of a decree has emboldened the bangers.

    Have any of you spent time at 3 & Pine, or Rainier and Henderson, or MLK and Cherry? The bangers openly deal drugs, intimidate regular folk, and all with impunity because SPD is in major de-policing mode.

    And we’re to blame. Let the cops do their jobs and stop listening to the PC police.

    #759384

    kootchman
    Member

    Trouble with all that JimmyG is they are beating the hell out of innocents, and shooting innocents. A 6’4″ fat sheriff knocking a 5’&’, 147 kid into a wall and causing brain damage is one step too far over the line.. or the cop that drop kicked a kid in the balls in a convenience store.. oops mistaken identity, or of course the most infamous… the shooting death of a legally blind, chronic inibriate in the middle of crosswalk, all 138 lbs of him. we have all seen the dash cams… if you can’t handle it.. find a new line of work. Make the drugs legal. Darwinism will prevail. If ya gotta get $200 a day to shoot up… where are they going to get that money? You make two classes prime candidates for gun violence, the users and the sellers. Let the county coroner sort it out. Have you seen any violent shoot outs and turf wars over alcohol since prohibition was repealed? Nope. Legalize drugs. It’s the headwaters of the problem. Gun registry isn’t going to do a damn thing to stop the primary causes. we have rogue cops with a bullshit attitude… if they can’t take a “f,,,k you… without flying off the handles and beating the crap out of a citizen.. they are in the wrong profession. You and I both know they teach forceful intimidation at the academy.

    #759385

    odroku
    Member

    “allow me…” to what? Do exactly what I said, which is fail to assert a real societal value of guns that compares favorably in contribution to society with the automobile? Mission accomplished. To address the actual points would imply any were evident in that morass of hyperbole.

    I hope you use your gun more skillfully and carefully than you do your keyboard. Word salad is one thing. Bullet salad?

    #759386

    JimmyG
    Member

    Kootchman, the bangers aren’t shooting each other over drugs.

    They’re shooting each other over having been disrespected or for wearing the wrong colors in the wrong ‘hood.

    The most recent Seattle homicides haven’t been over drug turf but over minor insults that in their street culture mean there must be retaliation.

    And going back through Seattle homicides from 2009, 10 and 11? The majority of homicides weren’t drug-related.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for legalizing drugs. But here in Seattle, most homicides don’t have drugs as an underlying cause.

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