Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Why isn't he in jail?
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October 26, 2014 at 6:29 am #613028
villagegreenMemberSo, the hand gun used in the Marysville shooting has been traced back to the father. Your beloved second amendment right also comes with responsibility. Allow your gun to be used in a mass murder? Then please proceed directly to jail. So tired of these insecure man-children whining about their gun rights. Fine, keep your stash of weapons. But if you can’t secure them away from others, please go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
October 26, 2014 at 2:55 pm #815425
kayoParticipantYes. Agree. This was a 14 year old boy – a child with no impulse control. If the dad’s gun had only been locked up…. The kid had his own rifle, but that would’ve been much more difficult for him to sneak into school. Our school has been in shelter in place 3x this year due to safety incidents including gunshots and as a parent, I am so scared and fed up. I am starting to feel like all schools need metal detectors, security guards, and security doors that slam to the ground with the pushing of a panic button. I can’t believe I feel this way about a freaking elementary school, but I do. I can’t imagine anything like this happening when I was a kid in the 80s. It is out of control. I wept a lot of tears of both anger and sadness when this happened on Friday. When will enough be enough? Someone who is pro-gun please tell me the answer to this question. I’ve had it.
October 26, 2014 at 2:59 pm #815426
JoBParticipantthe only arrest i know of so far of a parent being prosecuted for making the guns used by their child in a shooting occurred recently in California and i am not sure that will stand up in court.
i think they arrested her for child endangerment because there were several unsecured firearms in the house .. some of them loaded.
there may be others..
October 26, 2014 at 3:50 pm #815427
JTBParticipantThis would seem to be an excellent opportunity for the NRA to get behind a national education and PR campaign urging adults to keep their handguns safely secured and inaccessible by minors (or any other unauthorized persons). I anticipate its unveiling in the near future.
October 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm #815428
JoBParticipantJTB
i don’t think a national education plan is enough
what we need is legal accountability…
this is Washinton State’s pamphlet on gun safety and regulations.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00511/wdfw00511.pdf
there are lots of rules and regulations about who can possess a gun and where it can be used.. but i couldn’t find secure gun storage of privately owned firearms legally addressed at all.
The state can confiscate the firearm used in the Marysville school shootings…
but that’s about it.
October 26, 2014 at 4:42 pm #815429
seaopgalParticipantSame reason the Marysville police officer isn’t in jail after he left his loaded handgun in his minivan and one of his children shot and killed the other. (He was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter, acquitted (hung jury), fired, appealed, and was reinstated. Who knows, he was probably at the high school on Friday….) When it comes to guns we are collectively insane.
October 26, 2014 at 5:43 pm #815430
JTBParticipantJoB. What I was referring to is the federal reg. barring minors from purchasing and possessing handguns. Yes, I was being sarcastic about the NRA taking a responsible stance on this matter. But I think you are right that there should be more consequential enforcement when adults leave handguns unsecured and children gain access to them.
October 26, 2014 at 6:38 pm #815431
JoBParticipantJTB..
i confess to being too derailed by this to recognize your oh so obvious on second reading snark.
this just keeps happening and the sacred cow of guns keeps anyone from putting the blame where it belongs..
a total lack of accountability.
we had a self styled militia photographed with their weapons not only drawn but pointed sharpshooter style at federal officials in Nevada and the nation held it’s collective breath to see what would happen.
The government caved, nobody was prosecuted and we taught every young pair of eyes watching that training guns on people.. in essence.. hunting people… was acceptable behavior
What i want to know is where are the responsible gun owners while this is happening? Because this is clearly not responsible behavior.
October 26, 2014 at 7:11 pm #815432
JanSParticipantJoB, I totally agree. Where are the Jd’s of the world coming down hard at such irresponsible behavior, instead of simply yelling about “my rights, my rights”…I just shake my head. When this happened on Friday, my first thought was how did a 14 yo acquire a handgun. If it wasn’t from the home, which obviously it was now, how does that happen? Yes, you can share your guns with your kids while hunting..but first you need to teach them respect and responsibility for those guns, and then you need to lock ’em up, and don’t tell the kids where they are.
October 26, 2014 at 9:02 pm #815433
Jd seattleParticipantJanS – there is only one jd in this world and I absolutely think the parent/s should be held responsible. I have no control over what other gun owners do or don’t do in this case. All I can do is voice my opinion to others.
So, this has me thinking. Would you or anyone else here participate in a calm discussion as if we were trying to create a piece of legislation to address safe gun storage and attempting to keep guns from children/others? One that both sides do a little giving and taking? Instead of a meaningless fight against each other like the other thread. We all expect our politicians to work together. Shouldn’t we be able to? If we could come up with something together I would gladly send it to all of our state reps.
October 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm #815434
JanSParticipantsafe gun storage. …hmm…wouldn’t that be common sense? Lock it up, away from the kids. They don’t need to know where you keep them. Parents are supposed to be in control of this stuff. Both sides? What sides? Lock ’em up, and don’t tell the kids. What other side is there?
http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/data/GunViolence/status.aspx
notice..it says this for Child Access Provisions:
NO. Washington does not have specific child access provisions, though law does not permit knowing transfer to someone believed to be legally unable to possess a gun. CAP laws regulate by requiring safe storage, training/education, etc.
NO criminal liability explicit in law for negligence/reckless endangerment where poor storage allows child access.
I think this needs to change…how about you, Jd? or anyone, really :)
October 26, 2014 at 9:36 pm #815435
JoBParticipantJd..
the measures that would make it much more difficult for kids to access their parent’s guns and use them on their classmates are pretty simple.
all of them speak to accountability.
) universal background checks for all gun sales so that all gun owners are accountable to make sure that they sell/give/loan guns only to other enthusiasts who can legally own them.
2) registration of serial numbers so that the ownership trail of every gun can be easily traced.
3) serious legal penalties for the owner of any weapon used in any crime
it’s what we do with motor vehicles
why should gun ownership be any different?
because asking gun owners nicely to be both responsible and accountable just isn’t working
October 26, 2014 at 9:38 pm #815436
Jd seattleParticipantOk Nevermind. Don’t say I didn’t try.
October 26, 2014 at 9:40 pm #815437
JoBParticipantJd..
so you don’t support universal background checks
don’t want your guns registered
and don’t want serious legal penalties for any gun you own that is used in a crime
how exactly do you think you can prevent this kind of tragedy any other way?
how would you hold gun owners accountable for the damage done with their guns?
October 26, 2014 at 9:43 pm #815438
JanSParticipantwhile googling what the laws are now, I came across this. “Keep your finger away from the trigger unless you are
actually shooting.”…reading the other day where a school, I believe, in North Dakota (South? can’t remember) is allowing seniors to have their pictures taken with firearms. One example was a girl with her long gun, finger firmly on the trigger. She’s high school, so probably under 18, to begin with, but then…on the trigger? It’s irresponsible…did no one teach her that? But I digress..has nothing to do, really, with the topic. Sorry.
(or was it Nebraska?)
October 26, 2014 at 9:45 pm #815439
JanSParticipantJd…giving the google links a cursory glance, I don’t see a specific law that actually addresses storage. Maybe I’m not looking in the right place (it has happened – lol). What’s your take on it?
October 26, 2014 at 10:18 pm #815440
Jd seattleParticipantJanS – there is no law that directly addresses safe storage. That is what I am proposing having a discussion about. I am open to legislation, if we can calmly discuss it and not get hung up on our differences in the larger issue of gun rights themselves.
JoB – I will answer your questions if you agree to stop the accusational tone and hear me out. I am truly trying to have a conversation here without the my way or the highway approach. JanS asked “JoB, I totally agree. Where are the Jd’s of the world coming down hard at such irresponsible behavior” well, here I am. Will you hear me out?
October 26, 2014 at 11:19 pm #815441
JanSParticipantMy first question…will a law do any good, really? People will do what they will do behind closed doors. It’s not like we have safe gun storage police invading homes.I think that’s a hard part of it. How would it be enforced? For all I know, this 14 yo kid’s dad thought things were all neat and tidy, and things were locked up. Teenagers, especially, can be wily when they want something. Knowing that his family often hunted, etc., I’m guessing that dad had told him where things were. The 14yo had been trained to use firearms by the family, and they probably never suspected that something like this would happen. I think that’s why I say..don’t tell the kids where they are.
I’d love to hear some of your ideas, Jd.
October 27, 2014 at 12:12 am #815442
Jd seattleParticipantJanS – “will a law do any good?” – I’m genuinely not asking this to be sarcastic but arnt laws what you are proposing to fix gun violence? Maybe I’m misunderstanding you? Anyway, I think we need to define what safely and responsibly storing a weapon means and how to accomplish it. Once we have done that, we put penalties in place If your gun is used in an event such as the Marysville highschool shooting. But we also need to articulate the difference of safe storage from children/invited guests vs thieves because those are two different things.
We then need to draw the line where you are no longer responsible for your weapon when stolen. We need to store them safely but we all can’t have bank vaults in our home.
Laws won’t stop the problem, but you and JoB have continually talked about making the gun owners accountable. If prison time and the thought of losing your child or causing others children’s deaths doesn’t do that there is nothing left to do.
I am all for teaching kids gun saftey, proper handling and letting them participate in hunting. But I agree with you that they should not have access to them without a parents supervision.
I understand the first part of your post now. I don’t think there is a way to enforce conformity to the law without violation of other rights. Only make the consequences harsh enough for any person with half a brain fear them. This was the reason I was asking that question in the other thread about how much could laws actually do before the only thing left is to take guns away (not trying to stir up that debate again).
October 27, 2014 at 12:19 am #815443
Jd seattleParticipantForgive me if my post are a bit scrambled. My 2 year old is trying to help me type this.
October 27, 2014 at 12:29 am #815444
JoBParticipantJd
there was no accusational tone in the 3 steps i laid out as necessary to effectively combat the current laissez faire attitude towards gun ownership.
the fact that i point out they are not measures you aren’t willing to consider is not accusational either..
because they are clearly not measures you are willing to accept.
you propose a law that addresses safe storage which could only be enforced after a tragedy has already occurred as THE answer?
of course you would want an exception so you could carry your loaded gun around your house in your pocket… and .. and… and…
how exactly do you expect that to prevent deaths? isn’t it clear to you yet that the honor system is no longer working when it comes to guns?
A locked gun cabinet was once standard issue for anyone who owned guns.
People didn’t have to be required to responsibly store their firearms because it was assumed that they were in fact deadly weapons which could easily be fatal in the hands of children…
the norm was that if you owned guns you stored them responsibly.
i grew up in ranch country where carrying guns on the property was a necessary part of life… but when you came inside, you took off your hat, your spurs if you were wearing them and your gun and stored all three responsibly.
although an exception was made for your hat, you didn’t wear your firearms or your spurs to dinner in town or to the local grocery or to church.
Those days are long gone.
What was once considered a privilege that carried serious responsibility is now considered a right with little or no consequences for protecting the firearms you own from misuse.
you tell me that your guns will never become dislodged from your pocket and end up in the hands of your children.
i sincerely hope you are right… but i am not willing to bet the lives of everyone else’s kids on that.
October 27, 2014 at 12:41 am #815445
JayDeeParticipantThis is the other JayDee.
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1) If you have a handgun and it is used for any felony crime when it was not demonstrably locked in a gun safe, you are guilty of a manslaughter or some other charge. Even if you were not the one who did the shooting. Figure out what charge is applicable, just some accountability. Think of it like leaving your car running at the curb, with the doors unlocked.
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It would make people take gun ownership seriously. We are talking civil responsibilities here (not 2nd amend. rights). Saying one is responsible is one thing, proving is another.
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2) Handguns are meant solely to kill people. We need to treat them as a public health threat. If one has one, it should be locked up in a gun safe or accessible through some kind of code (fingerprint, PIN) that would be preserved such that when the safe is opened, there is a record. If there is not a safe, see #1. If you didn’t open the safe, then whoever did is “responsible”.
I am not addressing the overall issues, but trying to treat gun violence like what it appears to be: A public health issue. If your gun is used for a crime or spree, then you should be held responsible in some degree. This would apply to all handguns.
Well?
October 27, 2014 at 12:42 am #815446
Jd seattleParticipantJoB – you obviously don’t want to have the conversation with me so let’s leave it alone. I’ll continue on with JanS.
October 27, 2014 at 1:06 am #815447
JanSParticipantJd…I asked that question specifically about this…it’s a law that affects the privacy of your home. They’ve already thrown out of court an attempt to make it OK for the sheriff, etc. to randomly come in and inspect your gun security lockup.. It has nothing to do with the other conversation, and I ain’t gonna go there. This only has to do with gun/firearm safety and protecting children from having access to those weapons whenever.
I have a nephew whose life was turned upside down when he was 16 because someone didn’t lock up a gun responsibly. Nephew was not trained in handling a handgun. He assumed chamber was empty…it wasn’t. Shot his foster sister in the stomach by accident. Small one cop New England town, coop wanted a name for himself, took nephew to court, kid lost his inheritance from his recently deceased dad (80K)…basically ruined his life. The guy he borrowed it from is a nice guy, friend of family…but…irresponsible. Guess he assumed that having a 15 yo kid in his house unaccompanied was OK. He new the kid. But he didn’t know about the curiosity. Nothing ever happened to him. Seemed unfair to me at the time. And …adult went on to have a very successful life…nephew’s life? Has always been in upheaval, and at age 43 still struggles.
Responsibility and accountability. And if it involves a little more work on the gun owners part, so what?. Small price to pay to hopefully make things safe and better. I think owning guns should be considered a privilege, not just a right. Should have to prove somehow that you’re worthy to have them. Yeah, a bit pie in sky, since there will always be those who take advantage. But we have to begin somewhere. Doing nothing isn’t the answer.
October 27, 2014 at 1:08 am #815448
Jd seattleParticipantJayDee – for the most part I would be in agreement. There would have to be a lot of detail in the verbiage of the law to make it perfectly clear where the lines are drawn between being at fault and not at fault. But the overall concept is about the same as I posted.
The issue that needs to be defined is how “safe” is your safe? You can buy a 50$ handgun safe or a 400$ hand gun safe. You can imagine you get what you pay for. California has an approval system for safes that meet their criteria. I can tell you that “safes” that have that rating can be opened with a hammer in about 2 minutes. So I would just be cautious that such a law recognized that you did everything you could and at a certain point you were no longer responsible.
There is also the issue of transporting guns to and from legal activities that needs to be addressed.
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