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Why are you a Democrat or Republican?

Started 10 months ago by Jiggers
Latest reply from JoB

Jiggers
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I needs to know..Don't be shy now.

Posted 10 months ago #
Bostonman
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Sure I will bite. Even though I am registered republican I like to think of myself as a moderate. I am believe in fiscal responsibility lower taxes and smaller government is better than bigger and government. Government should not run businesses. I think capitalism drives competition and prices. I am an avid supporter of the 2nd amendment.

Other things push me to the middle like free speach, regulation on some industries and fair taxation. I don't think we should prolong wars but feel it was necessary to get Bin Laden. In the end when I look at the current political structure I don't believe any of the people in office. They are all rich and connected and very few if any actually look out for the individual voter anymore. Its all about getting re-elected. Politics has become a rich mans game.

There is a lot more I can go into but don't have the time.

Posted 10 months ago #
2 Much Whine
Member Profile

Jiggers, are you trying to stir the pot again? Do we have to pick one? I tend to find myself aligned more with some (not all) of the beliefs held by people that call themselves Democrats. I tend to find that I can not relate to views generally (not always) held by Republicans. Unfortunately it boils down to which party I dislike the least rather than which one I like the most. I am interested in what HMC Rich has to say. . . . . .

Posted 10 months ago #
365Stairs
Member Profile

I'm not familiar with any true definitions that would help me get into either party...so I offer only personal opinion - that is probably off base but is not meant to offend...

Its been my recent unscientific experience that everyone I know that is an R is either already wealthy, is standing comfortable, or has come from wealth where they've "always been" R's so that's that way it is...vote party line no matter what...D's are never going to solve any problem that will help increase wealth...so screw them...R's are easily made volatile at the mear mention of a D and in case you're prepared for 1 hour of circumstancial history lesson...don't bring up anything that any D has done...

D's seem to me more of the "middle class" who are the common sense minded, worker, everyone has a say, keep the peace...every day joe/janes...this is where I tend to fall in...

I chuckle sadly at the radio head R's - where they don't even call it that anymore...its just Conservative...and are you conservative enough to fit into their club?

While I would like to imagine I could relate more to an R on the topics that involve increasing their wealth through having that entrepreneurial drive and all the polictical manipulation...I just don't see myself as ever being rich enough monetarily to fit in...

My presidential voting record has included both parties + one for Ross Perot - even with The Admiral...

I'm a lost soul...

Posted 10 months ago #
DP
Member Profile

Dear TASKAJ (The Artist Still Known As Jiggers):

I liked McCain until he got suckered by Karl Rove and the Republican machine. Once I could have seen myself voting for the guy. Now I wouldn't touch him with a robotic arm.

That's party politics for you, but it goes both ways.

My friend John has been involved with the 34th District Dems since back in the '70s. He says he's watched them go from an organization that was concerned with issues and principles to one that's more concerned with personalities and getting people elected. I saw it myself when Jim McDermott swallowed his soul and voted with his party on Health Care Reform.

Once again, that's party politics for you.

Why do parties get away with selling people out again and again? Simple: Because, no matter how corrupt and unresponsive parties are, they will always give people who are too timid to stand alone someone else to stand behind.

Call me cynical, but I believe parties are more about subverting the democratic system than promoting it, and for that reason I'm with George Washington, who warned the Nation about them in the strongest terms possible:

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

[ . . . ]

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

etc., etc., etc.

(Excerpt from Washington's farewell address.)

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/farewell/text.html

Remember Washington's words every time you hear that Congress voted along party lines on some bill of national urgency — and nothing got done as a result.

Remember them whenever you hear the member of one party call the member of another "traitor."

–David Preston

Posted 10 months ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

Last time you asked this question I was a D -- I am now a proud, none of the above :-) I informed all of the officials of the D party, from local through national that they should not call me soliciting funds -- we'll choose between candidates but we will not donate to the party.

Catlbob wrote a very articulate message to them too -- I'll try to get him to post it :-)

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

I'm with Charla on this one. While I'm left leaning, I think both parties are more interested in reelecting themselves than truly doing what is good for this country. Less gov't. in our lives? Oh, sure, until it comes to regulating women's bodies, birth control, etc. Less gov't in our lives? Only when it suits agendas. More and more cynical every day...Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, John Boehner, don't help that feeling much :(

Posted 10 months ago #
Huindekmi
Member Profile

For the longest time, I considered myself to be a Republican.

I believe in fiscal responsibility. I believe in a smaller government that provides a strong regulatory framework to ensure safety (food supply, drug supply, water supply, energy, etc.) and fairness (fraud, monopolies, etc.), but by and large stays out of people's lives. I believe that providing basic infrastructure (transportation, education, defense, energy, etc.) and a baseline safety net against poverty helps business by ensuring businesses an educated work force, prosperous customer base, and the means to produce and transfer goods and services.

And over the years, one by one, the Republican party by their ACTIONS started to abandon those positions. They still use WORDS to claim to be each of the above, but haven't been backing it up.

The new Republican party claims to believe in smaller government, but in exactly the opposite manner that I do. They want no regulations on safety and business, but they want intrusive laws that tell us how to live. Abolishing the EPA is moronic. Telling us citizens who we can marry or defining whether a woman can have an abortion is NONE of the government's business.

The new Republican party no longer invests in infrastructure. Our roads and electrical grid are crumbling. They no longer invest in an educated populace. Many even want to abolish the Dept of Education. They no longer invest in stoploss insurance measures like social security or basic health. Allowing the middleclass to fall into abject poverty is not good for business. Yet the current breed of Republicans want to dismantle the safety nets that were built.

The new Republican party is not fiscally responsible. Cutting taxes and raising spending is idiotic. Starting unnecessary wars and paying for them off budget to make the balance sheet look better is cynically political.

Tax cuts were needed in 1980 when the top tax rate was 70%. But with the top tax rate less than half that, and capital gains tax rates less than half again... there's no justification for it. Anyone truly fiscally responsible would let those temporary Bush tax cuts expire and go back to the tax rates we had in the 90's. Anyone truly fiscally responsible would not have handcuffed Medicare to prevent them from negotiating better prices with the drug companies. The list could go on forever. The current Republican fiscal policies provide a short term benefit for a few, with longterm drawbacks for all.

Oddly, as the Republicans have gone off the deep end with policies antithetical to my core beliefs, the Democrats have moved more towards the center. The Democrats, despite the silly "socialist" spin you hear from Fox News, are much more fiscally responsible and much more in tune with my core beliefs than the Republicans have been since the first Bush left office.

So, you can call me an independent. Or you can call me a moderate. Or you can call me a centrist. I tend to vote for whichever party is closest to my beliefs. That's been the Democrats for more than a decade now. And the Republicans just keep moving further and further away from the center.

Posted 10 months ago #
dbsea
Member Profile

Huindekmi, you just saved me a whole LOT of typing. I would pretty much cut and paste your entire post.

I would add that I believe our system is broken. We do not have leaders, we have weather vanes primarily interested in extending their "public service" careers. Unlimited spending (a corporation is a person!)on TV and radio ads has turned our elections into nothing but sound bites, misleading half truths and outright lies. I don't see how anyone who can't raise hundreds of millions will ever have a chance again. And the majority of Americans will vote more on impressions than on knowledge.

Posted 10 months ago #
waynster
Member Profile

I say who I am. I am U.S. citizen who votes for what he believes whether left or right. If you scew me I vote you out plain and simple. I am a independent moderate voter who says political partys are old and out dated. I am a minority voter why they say I must vote right I must vote left or my vote don't count. I say BS untill the moderates take back this country problems will continue. So say what you must for I vote and thats more then some can say......

Posted 10 months ago #
JayDee
Member Profile

Huindekmi, me too. I would be a Country club Republican if they hadn't been hunted to extinction. And like you said, centrist Demos are the closest to that extinct species. Neither the Dems or Republicans are blame-free. Gregoire greatly expanded State government during flush times only to have to cut the very same programs 3 years later when it was clear the ride was coming to an end.
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Yet the current crazy talk from the current day Republicans (and I am not exaggerating) about not raising taxes and the debt ceiling is even harder to stomach: "We believe in business, and by our actions will destroy the economy those businesses rely on" is what they are really saying.
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We need taxes for services and America has lower effective taxes now than at any time in the past 40 years (No, I don't remember the source, but it is true.) When Boeing pays zero taxes, something is wrong. When the current day Republicans rail against taxes it is more a symptom of mania than reality. In a way, the balanced budget idea would at least show the citizens what even lower taxes pays for: Not much. The Demos and Republicans are a lot like the Croats and the Serbs -- neither is in the right, but one of them is more guilty. Both are beholden to the Golden Rule, and the gold is held by the financial sector. The Citizens are entertained by bread and circuses, while both parties allow others to rob our country. IMHO.

Posted 10 months ago #
smokeycretin9
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Neither, it's a game of divide and conquer.

Think for yourselves people. Get your info somewhere besides MSNBC or FOX.

Posted 10 months ago #
dhg
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The Republican Party has strongly allied itself to the "Christian" far right and created a coalition of fundamentalists and Laissez Faire capitalists. Together they push to make abortion a crime and put an end to environmental restrictions. It has become a fairly soulless party that does not wish to take care of the sick or feed the poor. They've subverted the US Supreme Court, which has now declared corporations to be people and money to be a form of free speech.
If you were to look up the Republican platform that Dwight D Eisenhower stood on in the 1950's, you'd find a platform that sounds like the Democratic platform of today: Stronger unions, increase minimum wage.

Posted 10 months ago #
Jiggers
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Any WHIGS out there still?

Posted 10 months ago #
dhg
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This is a succinct repost from Reddit.com:
In the 1950's & 1960's the top tax rate was 70-92% we laid the interstate system, built the Internet, put a man on the moon, defeated Communism, our education system was envy of world, our middle class thriving, our economy was unparallelled. You want that back? Raise the taxes on the rich!

Posted 10 months ago #
Cait
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I consider myself a Democrat with some trepidation - but I find the Democratic party more progressive and inclusive on important social issues. That's really all that keeps me comin' back consistently. When you talk about fiscal politcs, my head starts to swim a bit.

Posted 10 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

after reading up on ALEC, the group of rich businessmen and politicians who craft state legislation to roll back the new deal, this thought occurred to me:

conservative policies are crafted in board rooms by people who are attempting to use government to enrich themselves at any cost to the population and its environment.

liberal policies have been formed over the course of the nation's history by the struggles of working people who don't aspire to great wealth, but merely want to eke out a comfortable living. they are informed by the struggles to abolish slavery, the fight for fair working conditions and wages, women's suffrage, equal rights for gay and lesbian people, ending the oppression of minority populations, and protection from predation by private forces larger than our government. we liberals don't want a nanny state; rather we want a government that helps any citizen if he falls on hard times, and we believe that we should all freely and happily pay into that system knowing that we, ourselves, may need it to work for us one day.

we, too, want a balanced budget, and we believe the cost of having a reflexive and responsible government so is worth any tax or fee that we see fit to levy.

it's "we, the people," not "me, the people."

as far as political affiliation, it's becoming clear that the democratic party - while sometimes led by some good-hearted, altruistic folks - has been corrupted by the same forces that now inform republican policies.

to build on what charlabob and others have said, we need to defund both corporate parties, and the first step is publicly-financed elections.

and in order to do that, we need to sue congress for passing laws that have abridged the freedom of the press, change the way FCC licenses are granted, and take back our media and airwaves. some genuine reportage on a national level wouldn't hurt, either.

Posted 10 months ago #
dobro
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redblack- your paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 totally nail it. Thanks.

Posted 10 months ago #
DP
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More reasons to eschew party labels and machine politics:

1) The two major parties often collaborate with each other and with the media to keep third party candidates off the ballot, throttling the democratic process.

In the '80s, it was Republicans vs. Perot. Last two elections, it was Dems vs. Nader.

From a (UK) Guardian article on that:

Democratic party activists and officials are campaigning to stop the independent candidate Ralph Nader's name appearing on the ballot, because they believe it could threaten their effort to defeat George Bush.

They are using every possible legal means to deny voters the chance of voting for Mr Nader, including advising Democrats not to sign his petitions to get on the ballot, challenging the signatures he does get, and showing ads attacking his candidacy.

Mr Nader is running as an anti-war and anti-corporate candidate.

A recent email from a Texas Democratic party official to members, obtained by the Guardian, was headed Keep Nader off the Texas Ballot and continued: "We need to make sure he is nowhere near a ballot in Texas."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/01/uselections2004.usa

Big parties blame third-party candidates for costing them the election, conveniently ignoring the fact that it's voter disillusionment with them and their party that has really hurt them the most.

2) Machine politics is one of the major factors contributing to corporate domination of our political system. Political machines deliver both the candidates and the votes. That's why corporations trust them to deliver corporate-friendly legislation.

If you look at how corporations invest their money in politics, you'll see that they often hedge their bets by giving money to both sides.

What was true 70 years ago is even truer today. Right, Mr. Smith?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9r7pEphCe4&feature=related

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Both "big parties" have death grips. 'Corporations" are pilloried for "buying" influence... yet, labor unions far out spend corporate contributions... Obama shattered all previous fund raising records in the last general election. It works like this... most centrists, moderates, sit on the porch .... the moderat left left lets loose the attack dogs of the truly looney. The right of center responds in kind with the truly absurd and the party is on. The choice becomes of the two extremes vying for the marginal edge the 5 to 8 per cent of swing voters...which one will do me less damage. dhg... in the 50's and 60's... I lived in them... tell blacks we had a great school system... seperate but equal ring a bell? Little Appalachia history reading would help too, ... those old folks just loved those good old days of abject poverty... any moron with an 8th grade education was employable... labor was at a premium, not skill sets. There is nothing about the 50's and 60's that is germaine today... taxing the productive to subsidize the non-productive...? Good heavens even the commies threw that canard out the window!

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

I have been an avid student of politics since i was about 12... that's 50 years of watching the wheels spin around.

What you have now is the logical conclusion of the Tricky Dick incubator that spawned Mr Cheney and friends.

I am a democrat because i am not a republican and being a democrat is the only current viable choice.

Give me another and i will gladly carry their banner.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
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Anarchist?

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
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Tribalism?

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

I have found truth... I was thinking of heading to Turkey Knob for a bit of relaxation and fun.... but I spent too much whoopin it up in a beer tent at a volunteer firemen's carnival... for family fun though.... I highly recommend this family centered festival... http://www.machinegunshoot.com/ .... aka Turkey Knob ... Back to the truth... friend calls and says she found a magazine article re; Messr; Steve Martin..in her gyno's office... sort of a lifestyle magazine. So my liberal friends... I had to do a look see.... and damned if it isn't actually a good magazine... Garden & Gun ... the soul of the south.... I am canceling my subscription to New Republic.... browse it... and then tell e is this not the locus for a new banner to rally under? If we can't afford Guns and Butter... let's all compromise..surely we can afford Gardens and Guns.... see ya on the breastworks. Fine dining included, http://gardenandgun.com/

Posted 10 months ago #
waynster
Member Profile

I can say that I do vote more democrat then republican. Why I believe in basic human rights witch the tea baggers dislike. Unions and blue coller workers broke their backs just so everyone could have a job that paid a living wage. Just to have some tea baggers want to dismantle the NLRB becouse a corparation wanted to break the intent of the law and now every republican wants it defuned. Our might in industrial sector gone out soursed so some CEO could make bank along with the banks. SO a vote theses days for the right and all republicans is a vote to put every working american out of work and send us back a 100 yrs....sounds like a third world country don't it and they don't have a say or do they my right wing friends?....

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
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waynester... since unions long ago abandoned their larger societal goals... to strictly self interest, their demise to less than 8% of the work force was predictable. Only government franchised entitlements keep the few left on life support. Even FDR, no iconic figure to the right... cautioned against public sector unionization. Those that write tax laws, enforce property confiscation stratgies, legislate their own pay and benefits, set their work terms are the greatest threat. Witness my liberal friends, the respective police guilds... Seattle cops and King County Sheriffs.... they have beaten, committed homicides, maimed and paralyzed citizens, dropped kicked unarmed, "suspects" in the nut sack (later not charged) and of course routinely arrest for obstruction as a catch all....and cost us ALL hundreds of millions in civil litigations... police supervisors get caught drunk driving, get caught in gunfights in bars over a litte skirt chasing, kill a Marine veteran (unarmed) and because of union labor contracts... nothing happens... gun down and empty a full magazine of 9mm, most in the back of a legally blind, disabled native American woodcarver... ferry workers stealing from collections, .... all protected by union bargaining so that we the citizens have no protections.... this is the state of the American labor movement... oh yea.. and in this liberal sanctuary county.... Sheriffs can beat the "mexican shit " out of a suspect...but hey... we love those unions. When the machinists cost Boeing billions because they strike at every business upturn...Boeing would be foolish not to move. The NLRB is not a delberative, impartial, judicial instrument...it is another government protective layer to perpetuate the votes of the decomcratic party constituents... well, the pendulum swings the other way too..... bet the SC voters would love to see the NLRB die for lack of funding. Amazing..all of the 10 most recently built auto plants are in right to work states eh?

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

And the newest and funniest labor union escapade... episode two of the hard working UAW ..... instead of blowing pot and chugging beers in public parks... they got caught doing it in the UAW parking lot! Guess they felt more secure this time. Showing their appreciation to the American taxpayer for the bailout? Or their contempt for all those investors who got screwed out of the money loaned to Chrysler in the form of bonds? One bozo...chugged TWO 40 oz'rs before the shift started... has a suspended license since 2009 for 7 drunk driving convictions...and he hadn't even clocked in for his shift. LOL

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

283,000 Chrysler recalls this year

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch..

there is a country where the dollar rules..
where cynicism pays off in tangible benefits
you can buy anything
including dictators...

somalia

want to live there?

Posted 10 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

Kootch...that makes him an alcoholic, in my book...it's a disease. It's doesn't make him a subversive union member...apples/oranges, at least to me

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Don' t have to move to Somalia... we do it here. Let's see who buys who the next term. Well JanS..it is a disease.. but, disease aside, he goes to a union hall parking lot gets loaded, drives unlicensed, uninsured, and fabricates or assembles critical safety dependent vehicles... he was the most egregious case.. over thirty others were also caught..he was not the sole violator .... this was a "here we go again song". His disease does not excuse the behavior. How empathetic would you be if the brake assembly failed on the car your child was driving? AIDS is a disease too.... and if you expose another to unprotected sex...it is a felony... macular degeneration is a disease..you stop driving when you can't pass a vision test.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Don' t have to move to Somalia... we do it here. Let's see who buys who the next term. Well JanS..it is a disease.. but, disease aside, he goes to a union hall parking lot gets loaded, drives unlicensed, uninsured, and fabricates or assembles critical safety dependent vehicles... he was the most egregious case.. over thirty others were also caught..he was not the sole sufferer of a chronic disease.... this was a "here we go again song". His disease does not excuse the behavior. How empathetic would you be if the brake assembly failed on the car your child was driving? AIDS is a disease too.... and if you expose another to unprotected sex...it is a felony... macular degeneration is a disease..you stop driving when you can't pass a vision test.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Public funding of campaigns? ANOTHER crackpot dip into the wallet.... watch the "forumula" for who gets the funds.. oooops they already do that with matching federal funds. remember the League of Women Voter debates? Soon as independents got on the stage away they went) ... guess what you students of pollitics The commission is co-chaired by former RNC and dNC chairmen. The Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) began in 1987 by the Democratic and Republican parties to establish the way that presidential election debates are run between candidates for President of the United States. The Commission is a non-profit, 501(c)(3) corporation as defined by Federal US tax laws,[1] whose debates are sponsored by private contributions from foundations and corporations.[2] Step one to government reform.. take away the crack pipe.... our money.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Public funding of campaigns? ANOTHER crackpot dip into the wallet.... watch the "forumula" for who gets the funds.. oooops they already do that with matching federal funds. remember the League of Women Voter debates? Soon as independents got on the stage away they went) ... guess what you students of pollitics The commission is co-chaired by former RNC and dNC chairmen. The Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD) began in 1987 by the Democratic and Republican parties to establish the way that presidential election debates are run between candidates for President of the United States. The Commission is a non-profit, 501(c)(3) corporation as defined by Federal US tax laws,[1] whose debates are sponsored by private contributions from foundations and corporations.[2] Step one to government reform.. take away the crack pipe.... our money.

Posted 10 months ago #
HMC Rich
Member Profile

When I have time I will answer this. I will say this. At one time I thought I was a Democrat, but I was wrong. I am a Republican, and more of a conservative. I will define my version later. Good Night.

Posted 10 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

'Corporations" are pilloried for "buying" influence... yet, labor unions far out spend corporate contributions...

hold on a second there, slick. that statement is patently false. and you seem to be developing a pattern.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce ($34 million), American Action Network ($22.1 million), the Karl Rove-backed American Crossroads ($19.9 million) and Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies ($16.2 million) and ranked one, two, three and four among outside organizations spending money on independent expenditures, electioneering communications and other political communication costs through Wednesday. All are overtly conservative organizations.

They’re followed in fifth and sixth place by two liberal labor unions – Service Employees International Union ($15.5 million) and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees ($11.8 million).

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/10/election-2010-to-shatter-spending-r.html

anyway, kootch, you seem to be on a tear about union labor. we're actually 7% of the private sector work force, and 12% of the entire work force when you include public sector employees.

you and your fortune 500 buddies have smashed our numbers and made bargaining for wages and benefits into some kind of crime. so why do you care?

do you just like bringing other people down? do you relish the thought of people painting houses for $5 an hour? what about building freeways? or high-rises? want to see those built with cheap, under-skilled labor, do you?

or maybe you just got burned by the guy who unclogged your drain for $80 an hour.

well, there you go again. always complaining about the free market...

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

redblack....the last general election... Democrats raised and outspent Republicans hugely... not this particular cycle however. Once bitten... I do expect the capitalists to swamp the liberals this time... again...you just have to keep a bigger dog in the fight. I have been in the trades for over 40 years... union and non union projects.... the former has nary a qualitative edge over the former. I have said it before... I have no problem with unions..except when they run to politicians for special protections... IF the unions brought increased profits, productivity with exceptionally skilled and proficient workers..they would be embraced with open arms... but, they don't. And you know it! It's fair... you bargain away..but if management says "too much" we are leaving.. that is the free market. It is not a cime to bargain... never suggested it was...but when ya got nuthin' to bargain with... you lose at the table. You actually like the direction of our local police departments? You like the protections and shields they get from accountability? When a prosecutor says yes..after a finding of fact//.they behaved in a criminal manner I should pick up the tab for their defense? Why do I care? For the same reason any consumer/taxpayer cares... the more it costs, the more I pay. That is not too hard to figure out. YOU smashed yourselves...becoming irrelevant and an impediment to productivity increases and a drag on the return on investments that attract capital. The more labor costs, the greater the incentive to invest in labor reducing equipment... the greater investment in equipment, the less demand for labor, labor is in surplus...and as we all know...the greater the surplus..the cheaper the surplus becomes. That is the free market. Labor tries to distort this...but the stats show the trend. I just had my house painted... I sure as hell didn't pay $5 per hour....but having painted houses in the summer as a college kid... two laborers did in two days what I took two of us to accomplish in two weeks. The difference? Better equipment, better paint, .. on a NPV basis... they did it for 1/3 the cost... BUT... in the same two week period they do 5 times the amount of work.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Go to the FEC archives... pull up Obama vs McCain ... not some crackpot liberal site.. I will refrain from quoting my highly charged, equally distorting conservative sites... how about those numbers? Federal employees....making campaign contributions is as ethical as allowing the US Military to lobby and make campaign contributions to the Defense Appropriations chair .... we keep, preserve, and treasure keeping the largest federal employer out of the political machine.. would you suggest we allow the military to unionize? You will get lots of conservative support for it!!

Posted 10 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Kootch...

the American dream
to bring the Somali standard of living to America:)

NOT

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Who suggested it was?

Posted 10 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

I have no problem with unions..except when they run to politicians for special protections.

and i have no problem with captains of industry, except when they buy elections. and exploit holes in the tax code using high-caliber lawyers. and use our government to offshore labor and profits. and use lobbyists to write business-friendly laws. and influence judges. and become EPA "regulators" when republicans are in power. and buy millions of dollars in advertising to sway public opinion. ("ahh, hell, boys. just buy the whole network.")

you have a fundamental problem here. unions - corrupt, pristine, whatever - are still on the side of people who work for a living. you hate them because you're cheap and selfish: you don't want to see "average" people get what they demand by forming a collective - because it's the only way they have any power - even though it's a trait you admire in individuals.

When a prosecutor says yes..after a finding of fact//.they behaved in a criminal manner I should pick up the tab for their defense?

and when BP destroys an entire economic region, i should pay higher gas prices so they can defer the cost of their fines? (that is, if anyone ever bothers to punish them...)

that's what their lawyers and lobbyists do to us for them.

Why do I care? For the same reason any consumer/taxpayer cares... the more it costs, the more I pay.

and this is the fundamental problem with conservatism: cheap, cheap, cheap. "i want it cheap, and i don't care how many jobs are shipped to china to get it."

(and "no, i'm not altruistic enough to want to pay taxes to keep people from dying in the streets of america.")

yes, american-made products are expensive. why? because they're made by people who are trying to maintain a decent standard of living - one that was set by their parents.

now, are you going to help your fellow americans earn some buying power by paying a little more and being conscious of where you obtain the things that surround you?

or are you going to tell them, "screw you, jack. i need cheap tee vees from wal-mart, cheap cars from south korea, and cheap lettuce from mexico. and by the way, your wages are too high."

Posted 10 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

all right, kootch. i'll grant you the obama victory, but with caveats. obama's campaign coffers were filled by unions, small donors, and corporate campaign cash.

the latter arrived because, at the time, it was obvious to wall street that mccain was too inept to manage the financial collapse and he barely understood what was at stake.

Posted 10 months ago #
dbsea
Member Profile

The people who call the shots and make the rules we all play by are the beneficiaries of these rules, largely. And to a great extent are insulated from the results. Joe lunchpail loses his job to someone in China. But Joe's CEO does better than ever because his profits increase. It's all legal. But is it best for America?

I believe one of our fundamental problems is the loss of good paying jobs overseas. Corporations must be better off or they wouldn't keep sending their production elsewhere. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our standard of living is falling. Less money for everything, especially education.

I blame our supposed "leaders." The corporatists and those who won't stand up to them. This belief that the market will find the best solution if left alone is true to a point. It can create competitive and profitable enterprises. But will it contribute to a society where working people make a wage sufficient to what most would consider a healthy standard of living? Will it help our nation provide for strong education, infrastructure and security and prepare our children for their role as America's future? Will it allow us to save adequately for a secure future? Will it allow Mom or Dad to stay at home with the kids and not both work full time?

No, it won't because it's entirely self serving. It's like a virus that only does what's best for it's survival.

Unless we bring jobs back to America, tax simply and "fairly" and quit giving everything away to the Chinese etc. we're screwed.

Posted 10 months ago #
waynster
Member Profile

I just love how kootch and the republican party have these fixations on the little guys like union workers the unemployed and the middle class in general. Its that zombie affect in search of something oh yea brains. This is why I have a real had time with right wing zealots like kootch and the tea baggers. Womens rights none... gay marriage nope... oh and yes dont raise taxes on the rich can't do that. So along with Job I have to agree Somalia just might be a good location for right wing zealots like kootch and the tea baggers....

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

BTY... all... I never identified myself as a Republican.. and you will see through many of my posts that I am a strong civil rights advocate. Gender, racial, ethnic, or any other subset of the greater set of humanity. waynester, if you wish to belong to the reactionary section of this political commentary do so. This tax the rich is a canard. First, a vaginal or caesarean entry entitles neither you or I to anyone else's wealth. You are wealthy beyond measure by world standards if you reliably have one meal a day, safe drinking water, and a sanitary way to dispose of your excrement. You have that in Seattle. I unlike most of the posers and posters have actually been in Somalia...and many other underdeveloped nations. Your cries of "unfair. unjust" etc... are frankly ridiculous. The difference amongst us, is, you choose to confiscate, I choose to donate. I have done so in large measure. Your pockets are being picked by special interests and your only real objection is you can't dig deep enough without getting caught. This year, the cachet is let's put it to the 250K plus crowd...be interesting to go back say.. 40 years ago run the old NPV tables... and lo and behold... here.. I will do it for ya.. $250K today was about worth 41,000 in 1969. That was a middle class existence. Now all you soak the richophiles... whew, where did all that purchasing power go? That constant 4.3% of compounded inflationary pressures sure took more money out of your pocket than any "rich cat" ever did. My oh my.... and how does government keep pace... MORE inflation...much more. Tell ya waynester.... you can even predict the future... quantitative easing... the new Obama term for " just fire up the printing presses, make more phony dollars and borrow from the Chinese to meet the shortfall of a devalued dollar".... the devalued dollars we are going to need to feed that 14 trillion dollar deficit... dude..there isn't enough retained earnings, offshore money, under the mattress money, grannys cookie jar, or Bill Gate's gross assets to shrink that elephant. Since you do sorta believe in democracy (right?) Dude the middle class died off 20 years ago from over taxation. We spend too too much, we tax enough

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148472/deficit-americans-prefer-spending-cuts-open-tax-hikes.aspx

I guess that makes most American "teabaggers"?

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

redblack.... if you ever run a business...(assuming you are willing to put ALL your personal wealth and security at risk) you don't let the person who collects the checks write checks..you separate conflicting interests... you can see that logic? So why would you let public employees set their own wages, benefit packages, determine just how they are going to collect those wages, and then give them the power to collect those wages? Oh and hell yea...let em set their own work rules and disciplinary guidelines. You my friend would be broke in a week. Tell ya what... go read the story this week of NYS...one Mr Andrew Cuomo... see what happens to states that let unions run unchecked. FINALLY... after looking at the 15 BILLION in unfunded pensions..he admitted... we will never have enough enough money.. we cooked the golden goose. (taxpayer) ... see the new "Level VI" category of state workers.. OUCH!!! check out the new NYS benefit package. Wonder how WA ststae workers would swallow that reform.!! Now look at the population of NYS. Compare WA state.. with a 5.4 BILLION pension shortfall...and make a per capita calculation. I will help ya again..there are 5.1 million over age 18...of that only 38% work full time (FTWE)..school,, retired, disabled, unemployed, and we have to deduct the 64,000 state employees too..roughly we have 1.87 million full time work equivalents .(a little rounding) .NOT counting any other state debt.. bonds, roads, ferry boats, current payroll, fuel, airplanes,.. nothing else... every full time worker in the state .. owes JUST the unfunded pension plan $2,941.18 And by state budget, we are going to short the pension fund for the next five years..We are just a smidgeon in better shape... so far. Now remember, NY has an 8.9% sales tax, a state income tax, a higher gas tax..(pretty much higher taxes all around) a 110,000 home in Orleans County (very rural, very poor.. I know, I own it!) pays exactly 3 times the property tax I pay for a 500K house in Seattle. Two things to note about NY.. one, those that can have moved..they are losing 2 congressional seats... 2, other than the bank and finance sectors, NY has dropped 27 places in 30 years as a manufacturing state.. Be an ostrich if you choose... or... learn from others mistakes. Nahhhh .... you won't. The sand is warm, dark, and safe. . You think all of this is sustainable eh? We can just sorta tax the hell out of the "other guy who has more than me" to a balanced budget? Are you retired civil service? You HAVE to be.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Ooops redblack... gotcha again! This one will be fun. ATT, BellSouth, and others.... lotsa others... got caught helping the CIA and FBI wiretap illegally.. yes indeedy... the ole Patriot Act. The Justice Department... (GW) investigated...sho nuff they did it. The republicans scrambled to give em' all immunity from prosecution.. A lone voice in the wilderness... the junior Seantor from Illinois was furious.. hell no sez he... in fact... on the Senate floor he promised "to filibuster to his last breath"... (it;s in the Congresssional record) if congress tried to end run the limits of the Patriot Act. Noble man, noble statements. Oooops... sumpin' happened Lucy... he DID vote to give ATT et al retroactive immunity... every single telecomm company involved. On to the the DNC Convention... who hosted the 5 Million dollar "plank" reception? ATT... Who became a Convention God Star Constributor and printed all the hoopla, balloons AND paid for the Convention Hall Rental....ATT !!!!! ATT dropped about 22 million for the new nominee, the Jr. Senator from Ill. So much for the BS about GW being aced out for bad fiscal policy (though I do agree) ... nosssir... BHO took a whopper of a bribe and ATT was glad to pay it.

Posted 10 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

gosh redblack... ya got me sourcing Huffington.. AND MoveOn.org

Here ya go ya big corporate trash talker... and this is "favorable" press for the outrage of both parties Normally I don't cite... figure facts never swayed a zealot ... but these redblack are tooo precious... give em a glance.. ROFLMAO

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/22/moveon-obama-must-keep-hi_n_108514.html

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2008/07/23/att-paid-off-democratic-convention-and-got-fisa-amendments-act/

Posted 10 months ago #
sydney
Member Profile

I must weigh in here. Nobody so far has mentioned the only reason I don't vote third party: THE SUPREME COURT!!!

@HMCRich and Kootchman: Why is it OK to take away money working people have paid into the system specifically so that it would be returned at a later date, but not OK to tax people more, who make obscene amounts of money and will never want for their next meal?

Posted 10 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

i granted you that obama took corporate campaign cash, kootch. you know it, i know it, we all know it. and now he's letting the corporate banksters - and the minority party - run the economy. what else is new?

i concede the point. feel better now?

what i won't concede is that big money is fueling the tea party and that ALEC is writing statehouse legislation to roll back the new deal. they actively connect conservative politicians with big campaign donors. the chamber of commerce is also guilty of buying elections. karl rove's crossroads GPS. hell, the republican machine spends enough on campaigns to plug entire states' deficit problems.

they all outspend unions, who are funded with members' dues. you know, our measly 7% of the private sector work force? you really think us blue collar dipshits can raise as much money as karl rove and the tycoons on wall street? what are you smoking today?

regarding taxes, it has occurred to you, hasn't it, that when taxes were higher, we didn't have budgetary problems at the state or federal level. right?

remind me again in what era rockefeller, carnegie, mellon, etc. made their fortunes. i'm pretty sure that the top marginal tax rate was 90%. people had good wages and good jobs, the government was doing great things, and the wealthy industrial capitalists still got even richer.

but i guess their entitled progeny got tired of paying for welfare queens when their dividends started shrinking after vietnam.

i know that $250,000 isn't a lot when compared to the people who run the country, and it doesn't even gain you entry into the country clubs anymore. but it sure as hell ain't middle class. the top marginal rates should be graded to reflect that - to incomes up to $1 billion now, which i think should be taxed at 50%.

btw, kootch, i'm guessing that you'll never be in a place where a tax hike on income over $250,000 will bother you. i'm also guessing that you have more in common with us than them.

again, though, your response shows no love for your country and no desire to help it out of the doldrums in a sensible manner.

what it does show is great regard for yourself.

canard? nice word. but i think it describes supply-side more aptly.

Posted 10 months ago #

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