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Who's Afraid of Occupy Wall Street?

Started 6 months ago by Yardvark
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Yardvark
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Raise your hands:

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8884405-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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Wall street is afraid of Occupy Wall Street...
with good reason

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
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Amen sister!!!!

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
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Graham Nash and David Crosby on Occupy, they give you the general overview of what is happening and why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x74SmtAbHoA

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
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"The CLGC memo raises another issue that it says should be of concern to the financial industry -- that OWS might find common cause with the Tea Party. “Well-known Wall Street companies stand at the nexus of where OWS protestors and the Tea Party overlap on angered populism,” the memo says. “…This combination has the potential to be explosive later in the year when media reports cover the next round of bonuses and contrast it with stories of millions of Americans making do with less this holiday season.”

charles dickens couldn't have written this chapter in america's history any better.

rave to chris hayes for plucking this out of the bit stream and making it public.

rant to john boehner for being... whatever he is.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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"Afraid" is probably the wrong word to use here. Most sensible people who are walking past a crowd of confused, enraged, un-bathed protesters are "afraid" of the Occupiers in the same way that you'd be "afraid" of a rabid raccoon who was nosing through your trash. It's more of a sense of unpredictability than fear...a sense of, "Oh great, what is this mentally compromised wild animal going to do next?"

A perfect analogy if I do say so myself!

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
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don't break your arm patting yourself on the back; the analogy isn't that good. it does display typical conservative dismissive arrogance and swagger, though.

i'm much more afraid of the sycophants who side with the top 1%. they're dangerous for democracy.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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JV

LOL... portraying the Occupy Wall Street movement as a bunch of rabid racoons accurately reflects fear.

did you not see that when you wrote it?

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
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I still can't figure out why you're so afraid, JV. What effects of the Occupy Movement do you fear?

Posted 6 months ago #
365Stairs
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The rights to protest are not in dispute from my perspective...but about two weeks into the OWS (and in other cities) the troubles were evident there was lack of leadership and solid message - despite the foundation.

Then - as time moves on...the more troubling issues are HOW will OWS protestors differentiate themselves from the physical violience that is displayed.

Then - how will OWS protestors justify / reason the increases in municipal costs associated with their movement AND the increase in risk they introduce to the surrounding community the longer they stay - where the lack of available resources are best served in serving the public in other ways.

Protest all you want...but know this...others don't have to be with you in the street..to be with you in the fight.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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JoB and Yard: Again you're misunderstanding the word "afraid." Let me answer you as directly as I can.

My only fear is for the chaos, unpredictability, destruction, and anarchy that has been created by this movement.

Again, I'm more afraid of this wild animal because is completely unpredictable and may attack your neighbor walking down the sidewalk. I'm not afraid that the wild animal is going to hotwire my car or hack into my bank account.

The lesson? Overthrowing a complicated system takes much more intelligence than a wild animal can muster. Maybe it should just stick with rooting around in trash and pooping anywhere it pleases until it causes enough damage that the neigbhorhood decides to put it out of its misery.

Posted 6 months ago #
Bostonman
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People are seriously afraid of this movement? I don't believe it. I haven't seen anything to indicate they are making a difference anywhere nor will they.

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
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365:
Occupy is intentionally a leaderless movement. One of the beautiful effects I've seen is that a number of individuals are starting to speak up...as individuals. They don't inherently support a particular political party and don't have to toe the party line or platform. There are no talking points, no talking heads, just people talking. Extremely refreshing. The open communication and debate that takes place at Occupy kinda makes the Sunday morning political shows (and our very own US Congress) seem antiquated and moronic.

Despite its peaceful and democratic nature, it seems unfortunate that these days you can differentiate Occupy supporters from the violent agitators because the Occupiers are the ones NOT wearing police uniforms. Sad but true.

In spite of the poor behavior of the police, though, Mayor McGinn continues to waste a tremendous amount of vital funding on police overtime. I don't think anyone involved with Occupy or, indeed, anyone in Seattle, supports his unnecessary expenditures. I'm sure more than a few policeman, though, don't mind the overtime. Can't blame them. But if you'd rather our Mayor not spend these resources on pepper spraying old ladies and pregnant women, you might want to drop him a line. Seems reasonable.

As the movement progresses, I think more and more Occupy supporters who haven't made it out to the actions will start speaking up around the dinner tables, at the bars, or through their community forums. It all contributes to the same cause and it's brilliant to see it all growing!

Thanks to everyone on this Blog who continues to contribute to the movement's growth!

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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"Despite its peaceful and democratic nature..." That's hilarious Yardvark! And a nice little jab at the police there, like they're the uncivilized ones.

Oh wait that was an Occupier who crapped on a police car. Does that embarrass you, or would you high-five that scum bag? Presumably after he washed his hands.

At this point, I don't think there is anything that would embarrass this crowd...everything goes!

Posted 6 months ago #
dobro
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More pathetic dehumanization of peaceful protestors on this thread- wild animals? really? There's really not much to talk about with people that are this out of touch.

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
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JV- Methinks I know where you're getting your news.

I'd encourage you to visit an Occupy action and start up a respectful debate with some of the people there. Correct if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine your own opinion would be a lot more informed than most of those thoughts that float by on the airwaves.

Posted 6 months ago #
365Stairs
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Is the news that far off to let us form an educated position on this?

To put it another way...OWS protestors can't have it both ways...

You can't protest something / anything and expect everyone to automatically agree with you 100% just because you form up in groups and yell the same thing for a purpose - viable or otherwise.

Divides are created even among those who are supposedly in the same groups yelling the same thing.

Non-violent intentions of OWS cannot dismiss the facts their movement has sparked serious violence and then claim "that is not us or what we are about" when it occurs on the very blocks they occupy.

Sure...I've seen stories of occupiers cleaning up messes left behind...but that level of accountability is far less than the level of destruction left behind for the authorities to deal with.

You cannot deny that even among the ranks of those that started occupying are questioning their fortitude and purpose in these winter months. Its natural to want the right things and fight for "good against evil"...but when the ultimate expense is greater than the purpose...nobody wins and nothing is solved.

One act of violence associated with this protest was one too many.

One call to action by police was one too many.

You can't deny these movements have also increased costs of doing business and potentially caused more to lose their jobs by the crowds interrupting those who are trying to get to work on time. That isn't good. Is it?

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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Your smug little - "Methinks I know where you're getting your news." is a great way to avoid dealing with the topic. But I'll assume since you both avoided the question, you aren't embarrassed by that type of behavior.

Just for you, I promise to never link anything from Fox News. Just to save you from having to type the words "Faux News" and maybe allow you to deal with the issue instead of blaming the messenger.

How about the Komo news story about a Seattle Occupooer who was arrested for exposing himself to children? He's one of your peeps!

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/132064518.html

And here's the link from the UK Daily Mail about the Occupooer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046586/Occupy-Wall-Street-Shocking-photos-protester-defecating-POLICE-CAR.html

I could link hundred of these stories.

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
Member Profile

JV and Bostonman, how many times have you been down to Westlake to see what exactly is going on, and who is there? I spent all day Sat. there and can report the vast majority of the people there were middle class, middle aged.

There have been isolated incidents that have been reported are quite unbecoming, but they are isolated. I don’t group all Republicans as “sexual harassers” just because Herman Cain is.

Are you content with the way our government is run? With 30 top companies not paying any taxes for the past 4+ years (I have pay taxes every year. . . . since I was 14)? With Wall St. running DC? With the foreclosure crisis? Lack of jobs? Politicians “legally” participating in insider trading. . . . but you and I can’t, and Martha Stewart went to jail for selling $60,000 of stock her broker told her to sell.

Have you ever thought about past revolutions? How did they start? Most likely very much like this one with people frustrated/angry/disillusioned. Just the fact that we are talking about the Occupy Movement in this forum proves the movement is successful, it’s getting people thinking, talking, and acting.

You may consider coming down to Westlake on a Sat. and see exactly who is there, and what changes they want to see.

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
Member Profile

JV: I'm with you on the violence. One incident is one too many. But the threat of those incidences, whether brought about by police or criminals, shouldn't ever scare Americans from exercising their 1st Amendment rights. When they happen, our society needs to deal with them and move on. Occupy has done that repeatedly.

And by doing that, it has allowed conversations to continue on issues like the horrible effects of big money on our democracy, or the corruption of Congress and Wall Street, or the growing income inequality in our country and the horrible effects that it has had on average Americans. These are all extremely valuable conversations that need to continue among us all. And they will...regardless of what the news chooses to cover.

We just gotta admit that we live in a world where someone pooping on a police car is more newsworthy than the hundreds of thousands of Americans of all political beliefs finally becoming an active part of the democratic process.

In my world, the pooper goes to jail and the rest of us get on with our responsibilities as American citizens. In your world, though, at least at the moment, it seems to me as though the pooper gets immortalized.

But I also know that's not the case. As I type this, I just wish we could be having a more relevant discussion. We could be figuring out some more pressing issues, yes? I think we're both on the same page regarding how to deal with a public pooper. :-)

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

Well put 365.

CSW - No, I'm not content with the way that the government is run, but no amount of pooping on police cars, chanting, and smelling terrible will ever change that. And I'm glad that you had the backbone to call these hundreds of "isolated events" unbecoming! Wow, such strong condemnation! Such bravery! It takes much more courage to stand up to the scum within your ranks, which is why there will always be a large criminal element within the Occupooers.

As I've said before, I have driven by, but never stopped because I wouldn't want to be mistaken for one of them.

Likewise, I'm sure you've never attended a Tea Party event, but you've probably formed an opinion. (Not to even remotely compare the 2 movements in any way)

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
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Really JV, is this the point that you are going to dwell on, "Occuypoopers"? FYI, I have listen to several of the Republican debates, I've heard things I agree with, and things I disagree with. But as I said earlier, I am not going to catagorize all of them together because of one remark, or incedent one made.

Posted 6 months ago #
Jiggers
Member Profile

95% or the occupiers on Capitol Hill are homeless. If I had my own house and was a protestor, I wouldn't stay out in the cold overnigt.I'd go back to my warm bed and return the next morning. Ridiculous.

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
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Really Jiggers? When was the last time you were over at SCCC?

Posted 6 months ago #
365Stairs
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At least we know the answer to the age old question:

What happens when in unstoppable force meets an immovable object...

Posted 6 months ago #
Bostonman
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I walk by most every day. List every change they want to see here. Then I can take it down there and watch as not one of them will be able to name everything you list here.

Herman Cain is not a sexual harraser. He is an accused sexual harraser. I can walk over to your house and accuse you of a lot of things but it doesn't make them true.

Though it doesn't bother me that you take a little jab here and there. I expect it actually.

Posted 6 months ago #
thansen
Member Profile

Just reading through the comments it's so easy to see the politically leanings.

GOPers = name calling, paranoid.
Demers = supportive, open-minded.

My in-laws are GOP. For years we have been going to Westlake for tree lighting. This year MIL said she's not going because she is afraid for her life, that OWS people will "try to kill us".

I asked her if she was serious and she said yes. She is sure "they will try to kill us."

How do you talk to someone who is so irrationally afraid like that?

Posted 6 months ago #
Bostonman
Member Profile

Thats ridiculous, I am still going to go to the tree lighting. Plus my kids are in the Macy's day parade. Amazingly though in your own article you cite GOPers as name callers yet thats exactly what you are doing.

Plus I just went back through my posts. Yup, no name calling or paranoia from me.

Posted 6 months ago #
365Stairs
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deleted post - thought best kept to self

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
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I don't think anyone here has been too horrible with the name calling. Well, there was that whole smelly, raccoon, occupooper thing but the low quality of that insult probably disqualifies it from counting. We'll let it slide.

On a more important note, I think it should be a lot of fun to see how lobbying firms start to form strategic insults and storylines to try to slow Occupy down. It's pretty likely that the old political machine of lobbyists and party insiders will plot and plunder, as they did with the Tea Party, as they do to anyone who threatens their stranglehold on our Democracy. I'm just curious to see what they come up with.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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Yard, we agree on how to deal with the public...wrong-doo-ers. (Sorry last one!)

But seriously, this is just a symptom of the larger problem within Occupy. Please answer this question honestly; When crimes like that are committed, were more occupiers screaming "hell yeah, crap on that pig's car" or did somebody grab the guy and say, "this isn't how civilized people act, you don't represent us, get the hell out of here!" (I probably would have then concluded by wiping off the police car with the guy's hair, but that's just me.)

It's the lawlessness, and the acceptance of that lawlessness that tarnishes what you are trying to do. That's also so why many people like Thansen's inlaws don't want to go anywhere near downtown, and believe me I have a DEM bro/sis in-laws who are avoiding it as well, and they have gone to the tree lighting for probably 15 years!

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
Member Profile

Thansen, What a shame your MIL's perceptions is so, fearful. You can tell her this. I am 52, and will be down at Westlake on Friday, probably for the parade and then for the Christmas tree lighting, I will be the one carrying the protest sign with "Gingerbread Men" on it! Doesn't sound very threatening, does it ; )

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

that fear will continue as long as people like poster JV continues to call the protestors Mentally challenged, etc. He paints them as bums and criminals and people with mental deficiencies, and dismisses them because of it. Yes, as in any society, group, 'hood, there will be a diversity of peoples and views, but really? mentally deficient?

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

"Demers = supportive, open-minded"

Ha ha ha ha ha... too funny! Dont forget sanctimonious too! Ha ha ha ha... too too too funny. The self annointed doth speak!

Posted 6 months ago #
Yardvark
Member Profile

I obviously can't speak for every incident that is somehow being tied to an Occupy movement somewhere.

But, during the time I've spent with Occupy Seattle, I've seen how a lot of smaller incidents have been handled by those within Occupy. It's really impressive and educational. The more aggressive troublemakers are immediately pushed out. They're turned into the police or told to take it elsewhere since they're making everyone else look like fools. Even those who feel the need to fling verbal insults at cops are immediately challenged. "Why do hate the police? Aren't they part of the 99 percent? Don't we want them on our side?"

It's a major protest, and one that's been under constant pressure from the authorities, so that guarantees a lot of passion from the public. (Not necessarily a bad thing.) Even with that in mind, though, I think most everyone who fears Occupy would be baffled by the peaceful, positive, and law-abiding atmosphere of everything that happens outside of the newsworthy pepper-spraying videos.

Even in those newsworthy times, though, Occupy still holds itself to a high standard. For instance, when the Police came to evict Occupy Portland the other week, some creep from the Occupy side of the tracks threw a bottle at Police. He was immediately seized by Occupiers and chucked into the street, sacrificed to waiting arms of the police. "You don't represent us."

Occupy is a peaceful movement, and violence is a common enemy.

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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kman...about as sanctimonious as you...get over it...

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

Jan. How would you paint them? Please enlighten me.

And I'm curious why nobody cared to answer my direct question?

Yard?
CSW?

Why is it so hard to get a straight answer around here?!

Posted 6 months ago #
dobro
Member Profile

"Please answer this question honestly; When crimes like that are committed, were more occupiers screaming "hell yeah, crap on that pig's car" or did somebody grab the guy and say, "this isn't how civilized people act, you don't represent us, get the hell out of here!"

Your question.

"But, during the time I've spent with Occupy Seattle, I've seen how a lot of smaller incidents have been handled by those within Occupy. It's really impressive and educational. The more aggressive troublemakers are immediately pushed out. They're turned into the police or told to take it elsewhere since they're making everyone else look like fools. Even those who feel the need to fling verbal insults at cops are immediately challenged."

Direct answer to your question. Read much?

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

Dobro, we were both posting at the same time, so yes, I'm happy he answered it.

Good for you Yard, seriously. I'll take your word for it, and I'm happy to see that some are being handled correctly. Even if Oakland and other franchises burn their cities to the ground, I'm happy to have Yardvark's leadership in Seattle!

I'll keep my eye out for others following your lead when I watch news clips during highlights of this peaceful movement...maybe all of that is happening off camera.

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
Member Profile

The movement has been very educational for me. I've learned more about our economy and government in the last 2 months than I have in the past 10 years.

Also, I made a new friend at the protests. . . . a cop!!! I look for him everytime I'm at Westlake to get his report. He say's in general, things are pretty laid back.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

It's a very effective movement. They occupy space. They do it very well.
(child)"what did you do in the great movement of 2011 mom/dad"

(parent) ... "why son/daughter.. I occupied space" "A lot of space, for really long time"

(child) "cool"

Posted 6 months ago #
csw2119
Member Profile

I agree, Yard is a good representative of the movement.

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
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what a funny little thread.

to the cons posting here:

yes, i hereby decry any act of violence, incitement thereto, or indecency by the 99% crowd.

i waited patiently for teabaggers to decry the threats of gun violence at "tea party" events, and was met with stubborn silence and non-admission that the NRA, conservatives, republicans, libertarians, and the "tea party" are very close in ideology. remember the "second amendment remedies" conversations?

so when you guys are ready to admit that there are stark-raving lunatics with the potential for violence at "tea party" events and when you are ready to shun them, then we can start talking. i admit that so-called anarchists and other rabble-rousing losers lurk among the 99% movement, and i decry any attempt by them to incite violence or subvert the movement - no matter how aimless the whole thing seems at times.

as far as messaging goes, i guess you could sum up as follows:

the "tea party" hates the government and wants to curtail its authority.

the 99% movement hates big business and wants to curtail its power over our country.

remember this, though: when the former starts mumbling about taking up arms and overthrowing our democratically-elected government, that's treason.

i would also encourage any of you cons to read the quote i posted above. wall street - you know, the actual target of the occupy movement - is evidently nervous enough about the movement to start throwing cash at it and make it go away. read yardvark's link.

furthermore, for those of you who claim that obama is one of the banksters' allies, the memo clearly states that democrats are targets for political retribution and a flood of corporate campaign cash for negative advertising in 2012.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

"when the former starts mumbling about taking up arms and overthrowing our democratically-elected government, that's treason."

No it is not. Long as they are mumbling. Do you really think it is a democratically elected government? It is a government that goes to the highest bidder(s).... a government that legislates it's own immunity from the very laws it imposes on the rest of us. Redblack, he WAS the largest receipient of Wall Street and Telecom money in 2010..that is fact easily verified on the FEC web site. Now, if they turn on him in 2012..... we will see, Then you will have the proof positive it is NOT a duly elected government won't you?

It's in the eye of the beholder.

"Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--"

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

Redblack, I noticed you said the "threat of violence" at tea party events. That's almost as dangerous sounding as the actual violence happening every day with the OWS-ers! Imaginary violence at Tea Party rallies is worse than actual violence at OWS rallies!

Maybe you're confused...because a stark raving lunatic DID in fact shoot at the White House last week. Wait, let me check...nope, he wasn't a Tea Party member. But he did spend time in the Occupy DC camp. Does that surprise you?

Posted 6 months ago #
JanS
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imagine if an Occupier did the same..what do you think would happen to them?

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

JV: yes, threat of violence. as in "threat of armed insurrection."

people at occupy wall street are not advocating the overthrow of the government, and they haven't put cross hairs on any stock brokers. not that i know of, anyway.

and this president has had far more death threats than any before him, bar none. i guarantee that most of those weren't liberals. furthermore, are you claiming that the guy who shot at the white house last week is a liberal because he spent time at a large, loosely-organized urban encampment?

A video surfaced last week in which Ortega-Hernandez made a TV pitch to Oprah Winfrey in which he declared himself to be "the modern day Jesus Christ."

yeah, that guy definitely fits the profile of an occupy-wall-streeter. from idaho, history of domestic violence and drug problems, claimed obama was the antichrist.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/white_house_shooter_ordered_held_XwtohCtkJAnNqWRvky4gkI

so, JV, do you actually work for newscorp, or are you just a fan?

as for you, kootch, i love how you always conflate the fledgling u.s. government of the 18th century with the rich, corporate, blue-blooded aristocrats that the colonists overthrew.

you can't apply jefferson's quotes to the federal bureaucracy. you can, however, apply them to verizon, exxon, bank of america, etc. that would be a more fitting analogy.

Do you really think it is a democratically elected government?

yes and no.

big money influences elections, to be sure, and it buys a lot of media to sway public opinion. whoever has the most money wins 94% of elections in this country.

however, most of obama's campaign donations came from small individual donations in 2008.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

What would happen to them? Absolutely nothing. You'll notice that this guy isn't breaking any laws. See how that works, Jan?

This may be news to you, but in this country, the Second Ammendment gives the right to keep and bear arms. This guy probably had to show that he had proper permits, paperwork, and ID, but that's it. I know, I know, the Second Ammendment is soooooo 250 years ago! So inconvenient!

When he's not protesting, I bet this guy goes to work, pays his bills, pays his taxes, probably drives an SUV, possibly smokes, and might even go to church on Sundays....man the NERVE of this guy!! They SHOULD beat and pepper spray this armed teabagger, right Jan? I mean just look at that picture! He's just so...Middle America!! Gross!

And just to clarify, if he was blocking traffic, or doing one of the many other things that Occupiers get arrested for, I'd say pepper spray his butt too! Because those things are illegal. Get it?

Illegal = Pepper Spray.
Legal = No Pepper Spray.

Thanks for playing Jan. (you should forward my response to the genius who sent you that picture.)

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

Redblack, so much B.S. to rebut, so little time. It's funny that you sent a link from the New York Post, which is the first "news" source I've seen that failed to mention that the shooter spent time in the Occupy DC camp. Yet Fox News is twisting the news huh? And BTW, you are the 3rd person today to make a Fox News/Newscorp reference when faced with a fact that they didn't like. You're going to have to get new material. Or try thinking for yourself.

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

JV: lol. the guy in jan's picture is holding a gun at what you are trying to claim is a peaceful demonstration of his rights under the first amendment.

btw, who is he going to shoot in a hive of teabaggers? oh. it's just a show of force? okay, then.

the second amendment is intended to allow americans to defend ourselves from threats foreign and domestic. it was not written to enable us to overthrow our own government, or to counter-balance the police forces or national guard.

250 years of constitutional law has borne this out, and the supreme court agrees.

you should know that i'm a right-to-bear-arms democrat. i know you guys claim we don't exist, and that liberals want to take your guns away. sorry to burst your conspiracy theory.

btw, what b.s. do you need to rebut? are occupiers advocating overthrow of the government, or claiming that government is infringing on our rights? the name of the protest is occupy wall street, not occupy the government. the occupiers seem to trust that our government will do the right thing under public pressure, and so far, they seem to be leaving politics out of it.

as far as the newscorp comment goes, i'll leave it to you to prove that the guy was an occupier. you made the claim. don't ask me to defend it.

the NY post article was the first hit for a google search of the shooter's name, btw, which you didn't seem to know.

thanks for playing.

Posted 6 months ago #

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