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1. 365Stairs
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   Watching the highlights of the 1st GOP "Debate" / Obamabashfest was difficult...was there any real substance or effective & purpose minded messaging? They must be holding back information on purpose right? They have some real plan & answers right?

   But what is the point really? GOP puts up all these supposed "front runners" for the Republican nomination and over the next 15 months they will just bash Obama and hope this will win over the angry John Q. Public for the 50.1%? Where is the substance, plan, or even just a civil dicussion on the real points that are relevant to correcting the US issues?

   Is this the GOP plan - bash and hope...smoke and mirrors? Are we left to sticks and stones name calling in this country?

   Will the next 15 months be any different?

   With all the really smart people in this country - we have to tolerate 10+ people who are so out of touch with the real issues we face? Where is someone with a real...honest to goodness plan that doesn't involve compromise?

   Rush, Hannidy, Ingram all seem to think they have some answers...why don't they stop bashing and put up (get in the race) or shut up?

   Will OUR President Change any of his course for his run at a 2nd term? I Hope so...because the circumstances are certainly not the same...and nobody seems to acknowledge this - talking about the same old tired topics...

   I ask these, part from frustration, part of lack of understanding political process, and part because I've not taken a party stand either way my entire life...but I know what good is supposed to look like and it isn't what I see or hear today from either party...Not that is makes a difference...but I voted for our president...

   Posted 11 months ago #         

2. JoB
   Member Profile

   365stairs

   i have taken a party stand and defended it my entire life and i will agree with you that i don't see much good from either party .. too much posturing.. too little substance.. too much pandering.

   that said.. i don't think it will change until people from both parties demand change.. real change.

   Posted 11 months ago #         

3. Andy
   Member Profile

   Is this the GOP plan - bash and hope...smoke and mirrors?

   Worked for the Democrats in '08. It'll work for the GOP this time. It'll work for the dems again some time down the road. It is just about the only strategy/policy that the politicians in this country are willing to look at and say "hey, that works. Let's do it again."

   Posted 11 months ago #         

4. JoB
   Member Profile

   anybody remember the movie
   The Russians are coming?

   i think they have landed.

   Posted 11 months ago #         

5. JoB
   Member Profile

   Ok andy..
   i had to get serious ...

   this will only work for the GOP if people are stupid enough to buy it.

   I really really want to believe
   all evidence to the contrary
   that people are not that stupid.

   Posted 11 months ago #         

6. metrognome
   Member Profile

   365Stairs -- I think the brief answer to your question is that enough voters respond to negative campaigning that it pays off in the long run. It also attracts lots and lots of moola to both the direct and indirect fundraising efforts.

   The more complicated answer is that we as a culture don't want to face up to the hard truth about what it will take to solve our long-term problems. We are a society addicted to short-term, immediate gratification, regardless of the cost. And we always find someone else to blame ... the government, the R's, the D's, the commies, the Chinese, the Zombies ... everyone is so interested in protecting their vested interests that they are unwilling to risk anything to secure the future. The result is a self-fulfilling prophecy -- we are in fact losing the future.

   'American President' is one of my favorite movies; this speech really sums up the situation our country is in politically.

   "America isn't easy; it's advanced citizenship ... making you afraid of it and telling you who to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections."

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWRVbWMvi7c

   Posted 11 months ago #         

7. clark5080
   Member Profile

   

   never any substance in any political debate anymore for either party

   Posted 11 months ago #         

8. Andy
   Member Profile

   JoB,

   The snarky side of me says "see my last comment."

   But it isn't about being stupid enough to believe something. It's about our motivations as a voting public. All we want is to see out party win, and the other party lose.

   I have a little dream that somebody builds an honesty machine (yanno, like Wonder Woman's lasso), and every time someone says "I voted for X because I really believe he is a great candidate for President," we throw that person in it. Then we ask again "Why did you vote for X?" Suddenly the answer sounds more like "because I hate those people at my work who disagree with me."

   If we ever get a President who creates a serious, discernible amount of progress in this country - one that a genuinely neutral observer from another planet would watch and say "Wow, that is one incredible leader who has successfully taken care of the best interests of his country and its allies," we'll still have half of America bemoaning how awful he is. All because we don't like to lose.

   Posted 11 months ago #         

9. metrognome
   Member Profile

   Andy -- I don't think any President from any party will ever really be able to generate much progress again, except in the unfortunate event of a large-scale war. I think that era ended with the post-WWII expansion of federal powers and therefore the powers of federal elected officials and high-ranking bureaucrats. Things like the advent of television and later the internet gave us the concept of appearance over substance and sound-bite politics. Globalization has just exascerbated the situation.

   I really think local government is the solution to many of the problems we are facing as they are able to craft solutions specific to a community as opposed to the over-arching, one size fits all federally imposed solutions. I also think groups of citizens working collaboratively toward solutions are another promising trend. We'll see.

   Posted 11 months ago #         

10. 365Stairs
    Member Profile

    

    Appreciate the input! Each of you hit the nail...

    I'm just tired of hearing what the political folks think sounds good and then a few sound bites later...change to what sounds good then and so on...

    (Analogy alert)...The machine that is our nation is broken and running on fumes...we've bypassed or re-routed all possible power to the deflecor shields and we're taking evasive action...the evil Empire continues to build forces...

    We cannot survive a 40/60 split on views anymore...a leader has to emerge and take a stance - eliminate the bs talk...waste, fraud, and abuse and move forward on what really matters today...

    Not an original thought...but I hear NASA is closing shop on the space shuttle...those are some pretty smart folks...perhaps...if they can land a man-made satellite on a small wobbling rock a million miles away that is moving 16,000 miles per hour...they, as current government employees who don't need to lose a good job... may be re-allocated to putting some thought into fixing this rock's issues (where our trajectory is still stable...for now).

    Posted 11 months ago #         

11. JoB
    Member Profile

    nothing will change until we demand change

    nifty little video explains why we now have "winners" and "losers" and a team mentality instead of issues...

    it's time we stopped playing reality tv politics and took a good hard long look at the issues..

    such as the economy

    http://front.moveon.org/scribbling-sharpie-illustrates-the-truth-about-our-economy/?id=28032-5695148-izt1Qnx

    we aren't doing ourselves any favors buying into the game mentality

    Posted 11 months ago #         

12. JayDee
    Member Profile

    As Pogo said: "We have met the enemy and he is us." (Walt Kelley, 1970) The reference is to Earth Day, but given the refuse-ridden sodden swamp our politics wander through, I think it is apt. I would choose the side that is right, but there isn't one.

    Posted 11 months ago #         

13. JoB
    Member Profile

    JayDee..

    i do honestly believe there is a side that at least acknowledges the average citizens..
    at least they will give us something in exchange for making corporate America happy...

    that beats nothing every day

    Posted 11 months ago #         

14. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    and the 800-pound gorilla in the room is still money.

    elections are not won with lofty idealism or promises of change. they're usually won with advertising dollars.

    so do i have to start a new thread? i want to be the first (on this forum - i've said the same at TPM and huffpo) to place a bet that the GOP nominee will be willard romney, and that he'll tap tea-paw (a.k.a. tim pawlenty) as his veep.

    any takers?

    Posted 11 months ago #         

15. metrognome
    Member Profile

    JayDee -- the Pogo quote actually originated in 1953 and was a parody of a famous quote by Adm Oliver Hazard Perry following a naval battle ("We have met the enemy, and they are ours.") Kelly's quote was a reference to McCarthyism. The quote was polished to its final form for the 1970 Earth Day poster; in any event, the quote is spot on. Here is the original source:

    "Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ridiculous, leading to a certain amount of self-conscious expostulation and the desire to join battle.

    "There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.

    Forward!"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comics)#.22We_have_met_the_enemy....22

    Posted 11 months ago #         

16. JoB
    Member Profile

    metrognome...

    the opening line in that quote..

    "races of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people"

    is my answer to "what's the point?"

    my new motto...
    in honor of the governor of one of the southern states who vetoed a crippling budget...
    is.. just say no

    We need to stand up as a people and just say no.

    Posted 11 months ago #         

17. metrognome
    Member Profile

    as Margaret Mead famously said,

    "Having two bathrooms ruined the capacity to co-operate."

    I bet you thought I was going to use her other famous quote,

    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

    Too obvious; that would be like using Gandhi's quote,

    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

    Posted 11 months ago #         

18. JoB
    Member Profile

    metrognome...

    alas.. in my home two bathrooms have become a necessity..
    but we have found common ground in the kitchen :)

    i suspect we should all spend more time in the kitchen together

    Posted 11 months ago #         

19. waynster
    Member Profile

    

    Think we could write in DP for the job.......DP for Pesident!!!!( kinda like the joe walsh campaign) Lets see we gave the right 8 yrs so lets try the left for 8 yrs then when its all said and done just maybe we can find someone who cares about the middle class rather then the big business and the rich wow that would be different.

    Posted 11 months ago #         

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