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1. Jiggers
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   This should be interesting..

   Posted 1 year ago #         

2. Zenguy
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   I am up for this.

   In my opinion. It means living my life to the fullest and letting others live there lives the way they deem best. I have many friends that do things I do not agree with, but it makes them happy and that is ok with me. I am sure there are things I do in my life they do not agree with, yet they say nothing.

   America is about choosing your own path, what is right for you. I HATE it when others try and "guide" you in the direction they see as best. I would prefer if people guided people to there own truth, which is different for eveyone.

   I appreciate this country for its diversity, I love the different foods, the different experiences and for the love that others bring here for the special things we take for granted.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

3. mpento
   Member Profile

   I just can't resist. The answer is that you are an American citizen with all the rights and obligations that that entails.
   I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
   I always think it is kind of weird to pledge allegiance to a flag. I mean it is a symbol. Imagine if the flag gained consciousness an could talk and said "people of America I have a vision. It is my vision to bring liberty and justice to all parts of the world by whatever means necessary". And some Americans might say "well whatever means necessary sounds a bit much and some societies need time to learn and adjust. I mean what might appear to be an injustice in one culture might be acceptable in another culture and who are we to impose our standards? I mean we have democracy here but we are locked into a two party political system that enables unqualified inept people to decide policy and run this county and will crush any aspirations of well intentioned people who want to expand the possibilities". And the flag would reply "what-eva! You pledged your allegiance to me now go liberate the world!" And then one half of the republic would say "yes yes yes, liberty and justice for all!" and the other half would say "No no no, Liberty and justice for all".
   Then of course the obvious elephant in the room is that it does not say liberty and justice for all Americans. So that every time America enables an unjust government in another country so as to protect America and its interests they are actually breaking this pledge. But the means does justify the ends. Sorry what was that end again?

   Posted 1 year ago #         

4. Zenguy
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   Not to mention that Under god was added down the road. Agreed we should demand the same from other countries that we demand from our selves.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

5. Genesee Hill
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   In the grand scheme of things, it means next to nothing.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

6. Genesee Hill
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   That is, in my, at times, WARPED opinion!

   Posted 1 year ago #         

7. Jiggers
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   Reply to post 3:

   "I mean we have democracy here but we are locked into a two party political system that enables unqualified inept people to decide policy and run this county and will crush any aspirations of well intentioned people who want to expand the possibilities".

   mpento.. As an American, you have the right to vote. The problem is that less than half the U.S. citizens don't excercize that right, but they do love to complain about everything. The power of the vote can change things. Americans are lazy.

   Posted 1 year ago #         

8. CountingCoup
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   ~ it means you are a citizen of one or more of the countries from Argentina to Canada...

   Posted 1 year ago #         

9. JoB
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   counting coup

   :)

   Posted 1 year ago #         

10. Zenguy
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    We do not just have the right to vote, we have an obligation to vote. And the more we don't the more we will loose the right.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

11. redblack
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    i was going to say that it could be symbolized by teddy roosevelt giving his victory speech after he won the presidential election with a bullet in his chest.

    but i think a better answer is knowing when to band together to correct problems or to right wrongs or injustices that are insurmountable for individuals. in short, institutionalized collectivism. e.g. universal education, rural electrification, municipal utilities, local stock - as in the original meaning of the word - exchanges and grange halls, and unionized labor.

    jiggers: americans aren't lazy; we have drugged ourselves. and once undocumented workers discover american idol, it will be over for them, too, and we'll be back to child labor for menial tasks.

    i'm only half-joking.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

12. DP
    Member Profile

    

    Good thread, Jiggers.

    (Some really good responses here, too.)

    But Jiggers, when are you going to give us YOUR answer?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

13. ToddinWestwood
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    Living in the USA and being proud and happy to be here.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

14. redblack
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    i should add having the right to be whoever you want to be - without fear of discrimination - no matter how unpopular your decision is.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

15. dawsonct
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    Somebody give me a CHEEEEZE-burger!

    Posted 1 year ago #         

16. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    For me, it means we live in a society where talent and intellect will have an equitable chance to succeed, no matter WHAT the circumstances of ones birth and upbringing.
    Oh, sorry, that's my Utopic vision of what America SHOULD be.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

17. dobro
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    Not to be a bringdown, but it also means being one of the privileged 5% of the world's population that hogs well over 20% of the world's resources and a member of the world police force that maintains military facilities in over 160 countries whether they like it or not. And then there's all that freedom, like for Bradley Manning and the folks at Gitmo that have been incarcerated for years with no charges

    Posted 1 year ago #         

18. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    you're not bringing me down, dobro. preach on, my brother.

    overconsumption and malthusian overpopulation are problems, to be sure. we americans often feel entitled to consume whatever and as much as we want, while simultaneously embracing the notion that there are seven deadly sins. self-contradictory? you betcha!

    but most average people are too careful with their personal resources to be overly gluttonous. or they're simply ignorant that they are being overly consumptive. and in rare cases, they get combative if you point this out to them.

    having said that, average americans aren't stirring up trouble halfway around the world with people they've never met, and are mostly content to live and let live. nor are they plundering third world countries' resources. while they might be the people holding the combat rifles, average americans aren't dictating the missions.

    the entities who are dictating foreign policy in our name, under our flag, with our money, and with our military and government aren't even people for the most part. but, weirdly, they have the same rights - probably more - than average americans. and they sit on over 90% or our collective wealth.

    while these entities are (mostly) american, they don't represent what i feel are american values - like hard work, individualism, freedom of association, etc.

    when you talk about consumerism, you're describing what the top 2% want us to believe about ourselves. while some of us feel that it's our inalienable right to buy, eat, and drive whatever we want, i don't think it's entirely fair to call those american values or ideals. those are simply warped reflections of our collective, human selves presented to us by people who want us to buy, eat, and drive what they're selling.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

19. Zenguy
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    Yep Dobro, we are not perfect...God forbid that we should force democracy other nations...how dare we.

    I realize democracy is something you cannot give, but instead is something that must be earned, but we still want to believe.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

20. dobro
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    I don't think anyone has suggested we are perfect which makes that assertion irrelevant to the point.

    Why would you want to believe that democracy should be"forced" on other nations? Isn't that the exact opposite of freedom? Forcing someone to do something whether they want to or not?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

21. redblack
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    not exactly what dobro meant, zenguy. big business uses our state department to open up labor and resources in second and third world countries. it usually has very little to do with democracy.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

22. Zenguy
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    You are correct you should not force it on someone, they should be able to choose to live in a communist regime, the same way a woman should be able to choose to live in an abusive relationship...get it?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

23. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    you know why the u.s. got involved in world war I, zenguy? it wasn't about aggression, oppression, nationalism, or democracy.

    it was about money.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

24. Zenguy
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    Totally disagree, that might be a side benefit to many companies (Boeing included), but the US resisted getting into WWII way longer than they should have. It was about being attacked, but should have been about supporting our allies. While it turned out right, I feel like we were cowards until we were attacked.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

25. Zenguy
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    I agree with you Redblack, we buy our friends instead of establishing real relationships. I know my friends are my friends through thick or thin, not because they are waiting for money from me or information, but because they honestly love me. We need to start being real in the world and stop playing politics...it would get us much further.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

26. redblack
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    WWI, not WWII.

    i'll never disparage any war veteran, but their patriotism in "the great war" was co-opted by the fact that american bankers panicked over germany's seizure of european assets.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

27. dobro
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    "they should be able to choose to live in a communist regime, the same way a woman should be able to choose to live in an abusive relationship...get it?"

    Yeah, I get it. You think comparing two completely unrelated things somehow refutes what I said. FAIL. try again, this time with logic.

    PS doesn't answer the question I asked about freedom either.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

28. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    If people like what you have, you don't have to force it on them, They will take it.
    -Dick Gregory

    Posted 1 year ago #         

29. dawsonct
    Member Profile

    We would live in a MUCH safer World if we spent on foreign aid and development a tenth of what we do on military intervention in those same countries.
    Then maybe take another 10% and spend it on domestic renewable energy industries, so we can stop using fossil fuels we no longer have easy access to.
    You know our military uses half the fossil fuels we use in this country, don't you?
    ---
    Military intervention which is really nothing more than free security services for multi-national corporations who really don't give a damn about America.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

30. JoB
    Member Profile

    communism isn't a bad idea in theory..
    the trouble is that when it comes to practice
    most citizens lose choice :(

    Posted 1 year ago #         

31. HMC Rich
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    JoB, I kind of agree with you. I find it interesting how many communist countries decide to forget the people when the person in power anoints their son as the new leader.

    Opportunity, Liberty, and all votes are equal. And owning a share of the Green Bay Packers. The Power of Cheeseheads.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

32. dobro
    Member Profile

    

    "...forget the people when the person in power anoints their son as the new leader."

    you mean like GWB ?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

33. sydney
    Member Profile

    

    @dobro: ZING!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #         

34. cclarue
    Member Profile

    Being an American when I was a kid meant we lived in the greatest most powerful country on earth. We had more allies than enemies and this was the place to come for freedom and limitless oppritunities. It is sad to say but that's not exactly how I could describe it today. It's like being a kid and thinking the doctor knows everything and is close to godliness With his ability to save a life and diagnose our ills. But then as an adult you realize the doctor is just another person with a few extra years of schooling. And doubt sets in. So my answer is I dont know what it means anymore. I do know that in ways we are much better off than we were 30 years ago but in other ways we are much worse off. And Obama sure can do a better job representing us to the world than George dubbya ever could. During Those 8 years I would have had to answer embarrassing.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

35. lucky chick
    Member Profile

    "God"-given unwarranted sense of untitlement, and don't bother to argue that the concept of "god" is absurd and childish, 'cause then you are anti-American!

    I know, not popular, but it also means being able to express my opinion (although not necessarily without being attacked for it).

    Posted 1 year ago #         

36. KBear
    Member Profile

    A correction to post 11: Theodore Roosevelt did give a campaign speech with a bullet in his chest, but he went on to lose the election.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

37. Zenguy
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    I doubt anyone in an abusive relationship chooses to be in one, what they choose is not to make the tough choice and leave the relationship. Just as some people risked their lives to leave Eastern Germany and some did not. Having been to Eastern Germany, I can tell you I did meet a single person that liked it but they felt they could not do anything to change it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

38. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    kbear: thanks. you're right, of course. i had my presidential terms all confusticated.

    not many folks seem to know or remember that he was nearly assassinated, though, and i've always found it fascinating that he gave a long-winded speech after being shot.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

39. JoB
    Member Profile

    Teddy was a tough coolie...

    We like tho think this is a place where being a tough cookie matters...
    and it does
    if you start your life with the kind of advantages teddy enjoyed

    Posted 1 year ago #         

40. HMC Rich
    Member Profile

    

    Cute Bears too.

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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