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What did this election eally say aobut us? Did either side win?

Started 6 months ago by cwkysu962
Latest reply from c@lbob

JoB
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Mother Jones sent a couprle of interesting articles to my mailbox today...

this one asks the question.. was this the liberal landslide we had hoped or a case of foot in mouth disease?

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/liberal-america-wins-obama

the other asks the question.. will this change Republican party tactics or will they just be more careful about what they say?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/11/tea-party-future-gop

is the real politicallesson from this election .. don't say stupid stuff and piss people off?

I don't know about you.. but the democrats are still visiting my inbox asking for money...
So even though big money didn't create a big win..
money still seems to be the only currency of this past election

other than the stupid stuff Republican's said...
issues too a second place to campaign dollars :(

we have our work cut out for us if we want to change the national conversation

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Being more careful on HOW they say things would help. The mistake they made was not getting in front of the Latino vote. They are, sons and daughters of people who came here to aspire, to live in fear, but raise families anyway. If those kids finished HS and were brought by parents as minors, make them citizens. They are conservative, family oriented, respect self reliance.... I am betting we can find at least more than half of the republican party.

Yes, let's get the conversation... is our president in negotiations with serious purpose? Or did he make his demands and walk away... we will not get a deal if the happens the second way. He made that mistake twice.. let's see if he learned.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Thank you, Jo.
Thank you, kootch.

Thoughtful comments.

kootch, I would have to say, based on conversations with my (many) conservative family members, that a lot of Republicans really did want to torpedo the S.S. Obama before it even got out of port.

Within days of the 2008 election, my IN box was overflowing with forwards from the cousins in Orange County. They were telling me how messed up Obamacare was, talking about the End of the World is at hand. You know the drill.

These were people living in million dollar houses, mind. Seniors who had gotten many thousands more out of Medicare than they had EVER paid into it. And here they were telling me, a marginally employed 40-something with no insurance, that I should hate on a guy who was trying to get me a little basic healthcare coverage.

I was like, What? Oh, no. Nuh-uh! Quit sending me all this junk.

And then they were like, Oh yeah. Socialist in Seattle, eh?

With my dad, too (he's a retired doctor) it's always "Socialism this" and "Big Government that."

Change the record, you guys. If you wanna talk about government waste, fine. But just remember: There are people who are really benefitting from Obamacare. Just like there are people benefitting from Medicare. If you call for cuts, make sure you spread them around as fairly as possible, and make sure everyone understands why they need to make the sacrifice you're asking them to make.

Thank you.
That is all.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
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Oh yeah. And get more dark-skinned people at your conventions. Or ask folks to change the contrast settings on their TVs, so the people will look darker.

Wrong:

Right:

Posted 6 months ago #
Smitty
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It wasn't a landslide, but it certainly was about as close as it is ever going to be barring some drastic policy shifts by the R's. Demographics (as we all know by now) are working against them, big time.

I read that based on current trends even Texas will turn "blue" in 2020!

Game.

Over.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Ummmm.. hang in there Smitty. They will overreach ... they haven't got the bill yet for all they voted for. We will end up with the Hispanic vote... look, it wasn't earth shattering. 8 million fewer voters turned up for the Obama show than they did in 08. Texas is getting a slew of economic refugees from Calfornia and Ill. The takers slapped a 55K state income tax on the makers... watch.

Posted 6 months ago #
c@lbob
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While it is true that the top 1% pays more federal taxes than the bottom 60% combined, it is also true that the top 1% makes more than the bottom 40% combined.

That sounds more than fair to me. In fact, it seems to pamper those 1%.

So those "makers" in the 2 to 39% range here seem to identify with those at the top of the pyramid.

You deluded souls.

Posted 6 months ago #
JayDee
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My best hopes are saved for the Supreme Court nominees in the next four years. Scalia doesn't look like he is that healthy. I hope for two nominees and the Dems control the Senate.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Ruth looks like she is at the pinnacle of health. Go out there Cel@Bob.... go make some for yourself. Envying others is just so tacky. Are you watching as American business is responding? The torrents of cash heading offshore will be staggering, Tis like a bird... you will pay to woo it back. You will get some revenue .. it's unavoidable.. but 112 billion? Ya think that does a thing? Where are the cuts? Ooops ... the biggest chunk... the layoffs of government workers? Pension plans reverting to 401K.s... no more defined benefits. My oh my, silly talk that tax increases will solve overspending... the core issue. Defense spending? Nope. If you cut it in half... still isn't enough. Democrats are going to have to go on record... and make entitlement cuts. Republican will find your 112 billion.... tax code exemptions.. then we will watch as they squirm to cut....

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Curious though DPB... smart guy that you are... when did it dawn on you you should have been preparing for your own healthcare needs? Sorta getting a late start. Smitty I got some news for you... about 38% hispanic immigrants are self identified evangelicals.... we got something to work with... and 40% self identify as Catholic.. they aren't die hard liberals.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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kootch..

On NPR yesterday... i got to hear the head of one of Germany's regional areas point out that when your tax base shifts from manufacturing to service, revenue falls...

hmmm.. where have i heard that before?

if it comes out of the mouths of Germans.. those paragons of business sense according to you.. will you listen?

The only way to change this is to go back to tax incentives that rewarded employing Americans and investing in American manufacturing.

That kind of tax avoidance has benefits for the American economy.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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I didn't say there were the paragon.. I pointed out facts. They have trade surpluses with China, the USA.. because they have better production. You are about to drop a 1.6 trillion dollar tax burden on American business. That's your incentive. Tax your way to prosperity. How progressive. That's what Spain, Greece, Italy did... see how well that is working? Here's exactly what will reward employing Americans... ready?... let those who invest in American workers keep their wealth. Those companies... who choose to stay, allow them to have maximum profits. What tax incentives did democrats ever give American business to stay put? They have an ear for the clink of someone elses coins.

Posted 6 months ago #
Genesee Hill
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All I know is President Obama has four more years and Mitt Romney is still trying to figure out what the heck happened to his joke of a campaign.

Posted 6 months ago #
WorldCitizen
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You speak of Spain and Greece like they have anything to do with the US and it's specific current situation. Their economies are drastically different than ours. They are also coming from a different starting point than us as well. I understand why pointing to countries who have gone too far for far too long is a tempting way to win an argument, but the fact is it's a false analogy. Life and economics don't have to be an all or nothing scenario. A country can accept that needing to fund a growing dependent populace requires higher revenue streams. That doesn't mean they are going full-tilt Socialist.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
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kootch..

"You are about to drop a 1.6 trillion dollar tax burden on American business."

where, pray tell, do you get this crap?

Posted 6 months ago #
mpento
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Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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The President.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
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Pollyanna? is that you? Spain and Greece are resourceless.. the capital markets long ago fled. They lived on deficits. Their austerity didn't come from lack of revenue... it came from overspending. When overtaxed.. capital and industry fled.

Posted 6 months ago #
c@lbob
Member Profile

Re: #9

Well, Kootch, come August I will officially "retire" with a few scams in mind to supplement our income and keep us out of a cardboard box. I won't be making any attempts at real wealth, just steady state. You know, conservative.

But, since you and Mitt are, from how you present yourself, clearly at the top of the ladder, why don't you take up the mantle. You have the campaign pretty well memorized, it seems.

Stop wasting your talent on WSB. Go out and sell it to the nation.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

c@tlbob..

"Go out and sell it to the nation."

they tried that. The nation looked into their hearts and their pocketbooks and said no.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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Kootch, my advice is similar to @bob but for a different reason.

Quit wasting your time trying to teach college-level courses on economics and business to those in the audience that are more interested in finger-painting and recess.

Let them emote for a while and we will come back occasionally to check on whether reality is setting in or not.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JV

"Quit wasting your time trying to teach college-level courses on economics and business to those in the audience that are more interested in finger-painting and recess."

at least you insult was well written,
if not grounded in actual fact.

has it occurred to you yet that your financial education may not have been all you think it was cracked up to be?

Or do you dismiss the total failure of the economic theories you were taught as simply an aberration?

When everything is rolling along on greased tracks quoting established theory sounds reasonable...

but when the whole thing comes off the rails... those who can actually think and create solutions are easily distinguished from those who will fight to the death to put the economic engine back on the tracks without fixing what derailed it in the first place.

Be a thinker. The current economic model isn't just failing in the United States, it is failing world wide.

Those who can adapt and alter their course will end up on top in the coming economic shuffle.

those who can't will emote.

that's reality

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
Member Profile

JoB, your philosophy courses, whatever you said in the post above, was worth every penny!

I think I'll take my own advice and let you enjoy finger-painting without any interruptions from me.

Posted 6 months ago #
dobro
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Mini-kootch thinks he said something funny.

Posted 6 months ago #
JV
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Dobro, I'll let you and JoB get back to your dueling banjos of wisdom show. (yes i know that's not a banjo in your picture.)

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JV..

"I think I'll take my own advice and let you enjoy finger-painting without any interruptions from me."

our choice.
i have no investment in your future.

but i will point out that the person who listens only to that which confirms their personal view of the world learns little.

Posted 6 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Well.. I guess you have it all worked out there c@bob... IF all things go your way. Usually it doesn't. But the biggest screwing ever perpetrated is on those who follow. Your father and mine would have blanched white in the face at the notion of leaving successive generations so deeply in debt. Do you REALLY think that the average 20 year old knows we have over 60K on their future earnings to pay for OUR stuff. Then they will have to take care of themselves. If you factor in the unfunded mandates.. the bill rises to an astonishing 285K per.

Now, you may call that fair, progressive, liberal.. the least we can do is give em the best little engine to pull their economic train. The surely will need it. They don't need more debt.

Posted 6 months ago #
c@lbob
Member Profile

A great majority of the debt and unfunded mandates grew out of the decision to put two wars off the books for 8 years, then obstinantly refuse to pay for them. There are many, many examples of this behavior, but none I can think of so blatant.

The "unfunded" mandate to which you often refer to is Social Security, which should be a fully funded mandate were the funding not siphoned off to hide the effect of my first point.

I will mention a third thing, global warming, which, in my opinion is the most pressing problem facing the world.

My preference for a politician is really based on those three things. If you want to stop war, protect Social Security and save the planet, your my boy/girl.

Over the course of my lifetime, the Republican party has been pretty consistant in taking positions that are contrary to what I see as my interest.

That how simple I am, Kootch. Smoke, and mirrors, and numbers, and insults, and nonsense mouthed to allow wars, destruction of SS and continuance of global warming have no affect on me.

These things are as important to me as not paying taxes is to you.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

>>My preference for a politician is really based on those three things. If you want to stop war, protect Social Security and save the planet, your my boy/girl.

I could say something irreverent here, but in the spirt of World Peace Day (November 17), I'm going to control myself.

Bob, thank you for summarizing your priorities. For the record, I'm on board with everything you say.

Now then. Forget about kootchman and the Republican Party for a moment . . .

Will you at least consider the possibility that the other 49% might have the same aspirations you do?

Will you entertain the idea that politics might be more complex than white hats vs. black hats?

Posted 6 months ago #
dobro
Member Profile

"Will you entertain the idea that politics might be more complex than white hats vs. black hats?"

Why do you insist on the idea that you are more "fair minded" or, at least, less "narrow minded"?
There are plenty of intelligent commenters here that don't fit your simple minded stereotypes. There are many levels of complexity to consider but no one here is writing a dissertation, they're making 2 or 3 paragraph-long comments.

Bob's comments were clear and I'm sure his answers to your questions would be yes and yes, as would mine. BTW, the sky is blue and water is wet, as I'm sure you would agree.

Posted 6 months ago #
c@lbob
Member Profile

Well, DBP, I've been looking at the political landscape more or less seriously since 1958. I have voted in nearly every eligible election since 1967.

During that time, starting with Everett Dirksen up to this day, Republicans have proven to be a most consistantly warlike bunch of people. Both officially and in my personal dealings.

It is an objective of the Republican party to end Social Security - since 1936.

I witnessed a wholesale assault on the conclusion of over 90% of scientists concerning global warming/climate change up to today, though the recent weather patterns worldwide have made the people who keep up that assault seem similar to the flat earth society. Since the man who really won the 2000 Presidential election was promoting the scientific opinion, I conclude, influenced by other observations, that the other side was mostly of the other party.

I don't know what color hats they wear, but I know who is against my interest.

I also don't know what evidence you have that would suggest to you that I am not a thoughtful person. Please provide some before you, once again, talk down to me.

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DBP

I think there are Republicans who care deeply about all three of c@tlbob's points...

But they have still allowed the Republican party to be highjacked by extremists which means that if Republicans are elected there is absolutely no chance of their priorities being met.

We in the democratic party have allowed ourselves to be highjacked by ... centerists? ....

but at least when we elect democrats we still have a chance to have our priorities met.

That is why i back the democratic party
although to be honest
for the first time in over 40 years.. i have let my membership lapse
and do not intend to renew it.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Now dobro and bob . . . if I didn't think you were thoughtful fellows, why would I be trying so hard to engage you in conversation?

*

I must say that some of the conclusions you draw about the Republican Party are dead-on. Your assessment of what goes on at the top, for example. Other conclusions are a little off, though, and I hope you'll reconsider them.

This idea that everyone who voted for Romney is either a plutocrat or a dunce, for example. I'm afraid I just don't buy it. I know plenty of folks, including several on this forum, who are not only very intelligent, but very good-hearted people.

(Would you like full names and addresses? Or will initials suffice?)

But let's forget about that. Let's suppose that I'd lived my entire life up to now without ever having met one of these critters called a Republican. Given how much I read about 'em in the papers, and given this penchant of theirs for electing Presidents and Congresses every few years, I'd say that they were a force to be reckoned with, wouldn't you?

Indeed! I suspect that we might even have occasion to call upon one or two of them as we set about this business of saving the planet. What say?

Posted 6 months ago #
dobro
Member Profile

"This idea that everyone who voted for Romney is either a plutocrat or a dunce, for example."

I don't believe I've said that. I've called Romney a plutocrat, not those who voted for him. Cites, please.

"I suspect that we might even have occasion to call upon one or two of them as we set about this business of saving the planet. What say?"

I'd say please name a few who are not science deniers and I'm sure plenty of folks would be happy to work with them. Got any?

Posted 6 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

DBP

I am sorry DBP ...

but have you seen what has been floated on the inter-web not only during but after the election about the people who had the audacity to stand in line for hours to exercise their constitutional right to vote?

i have because some of the people spreading them are my family and friends.

i would like to say that they are nice people...

but the truth is that I don't believe nice people indulge in name calling and gender or race based jokes/innuendos/smears of that kind.

to be honest i am ashamed of and for them.

i definitely won't be making the effort to drive for hours to spend the holidays with them.

If i feel that offended by that kind of behavior by my family members...
imagine how i feel about total strangers that i have no reason to believe harbor any niceness at all.

what you seem to dismiss as petty are life and death decisions that affect women, minorities, immigrants, the elderly and the working poor.

i don't know about you .. but i have a hard time dismissing that as just politics.

Posted 6 months ago #
redblack
Member Profile

i'll echo what dobro said: i also don't believe that everyone who voted for romney is a plutocrat or a dunce.

but a lot of them did vote for romney because they believe that barack obama and democrats are trying to turn america into the soviet union. and they have stated that belief repeatedly in these fora.

they believe that democrats hate individualism, hard work, and capitalism; that we're looking to replace our jobs with welfare checks; and that those checks should be big enough to give us food, health care, retirement, and cadillacs.

any republicans here want to refute that that's what you believe about liberals?

i think that republicans vote the way they do because they see taxes as an expense that they can reduce in their own personal finances, while ignoring the fact that the "free market" is screwing them on the prices of food, gas, health care, and money.

they see government as some malevolent external force in their lives, yet they ignore the direct influences of JP morgan chase, exxon, and sony.

Posted 6 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Now you're talking.

How I see liberals:

Good people

who just want to be thought of as

well . . .

good people

Posted 6 months ago #
waynster
Member Profile

Until the GOP can shed its old and white racist bigoted sexes image dump their right wing commentators bring the religious side and teapublican side under control they will never get the votes they want....and some of the more populated states that have huge Hispanic voting blocks like Texas and Arizona are worried the southern republican is now on a path to extinction.......its only a matter of time the GOP shifts more to center and more moderate in order to keep from becoming a party so right they can't even keep the ship upright....... and the last uber rich group that bought an election got there monopoly's torn down yep they were Carnagy, Rockefeller and J.P. Morgan who did they buy McKinley who was the VP yep Teddy it didn't work then and it didn't work this time........the poor, the minority's and middle class have spoken and said to the GOP enough...... The people want healthcare they want a good economy that benefits all not just a few that's what this election was all about they told the old to come out of the dinosaur age....

Posted 6 months ago #
c@lbob
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JoB,

Did you find these Republicans in a museum somewhere? Were they stuffed, or mummified?

Posted 6 months ago #

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